Subject:Midi bugs (was:Multitrack midi (or not))

Posted by: TorS

Date:12/3/2004 11:52:04 AM

When I import my earlier midi files to Acid Pro 5 all midi tracks are bundled together on one Acid track. This is what the manual said would happen. In "Properties" I can see each midi track one by one, and under "General" I can assign each one to its own midi channel. They all play on channel one regarless! If I copy/paste the content of the midi tracks each to their own Acid tracks and assign those to different midi channels, they play the channels they're assigned to allright.
Why are the channel definations different when several midi tracks are sitting together than when they all have their own Acid track? Does anyone have a better way of handling this situasjon - I mean instead of copy/pasting all the tracks one by one?
Tor

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:12/3/2004 2:46:34 PM

> They all play on channel one regarless!

Hi Tor,

Are you sure the Soft Synth you are using isn’t set to Omni mode which would make it respond to all channels? I just checked this using Kontakt, which allows each sample to listen on a separate MIDI channel. I loaded a multi-channel MIDI file and each channel played the correct instrument In Kontakt. Of course, by default Kontakt had every instrument in omni mode so I had to manually assign each one to the proper MIDI channel. You will need a multi-channel soft synth before this will work correctly.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/4/2004 3:36:10 AM

Are you sure the Soft Synth you are using isn’t set to Omni mode which would make it respond to all channels?

The softsynth (VSampler 3) plays the correct channel when the signal comes from separate track in Acid 5, but not when it comes from "tracks" that are grouped together on one Acid track - i.e. the way Acid imports multitrack midi files.

The fact that I do not change anything in VSampler makes me think the difference originates in Acid.
Tor

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/4/2004 8:49:13 PM

If you could outline exactly how you are reproducing this problem with VSampler? The more detail the better.

I am unable to reproduce this behavior with Mach5, Kontakt, or other softsynths. (I don't have VSampler.) Does this occur for you with other softsynths that are multitimbral?

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/5/2004 2:30:41 AM

Peter
Apart from the one that's built into Acid I only have VSampler installed. And I only recently installed Acid (I'm used to work with Digital Orchestrator Pro, but I no longer have a machine that will host my Turtle Beach Pinnacle card).

When I tried to check if the same thing would happen with the built-in softsynth - by re-assigning the tracks, guess what: Acid crashed, and so did VSampler.

Having recently read posts about problems with the newest Delta 66 drivers, I uninstalled mine, and installed the .27 instead. But after that I have not tried anything but sleep.

Here are some details of what I did. I had Acid 5 and VSampler 3 both open - VSampler, when started after Acid, asks if I want it to start as a rewire unit - or something to that effect - which I OK.
In Acid explorer I looked up an old midi file, made with DOP (sounds funny going from DOP to Acid). I always saved my midi files as multitrack rather than all tracks together in one stream. That's because Finale will create scores by assigning each midi track to its own staff. It was a great letdown when I realised that Acid just throws them in a bunch.
After that I opened Properties and found out that I could re-assign channels from the General page by double-clicking the channel number. The numbers change, but they all still play the same (No 1) channel - unlike what happens when I re-assign channels for single tracks.
I'm not too familiar with VSample either, but I've gone by the book and set it up to play different instruments on different channels. And like I said, it works OK with separate Acid tracks.

The Delta66 driver might have had something to do with the crash but not - I believe - with the track situation.

I know I can copy/paste my way out of this. And I can open the midi in Finale and save each instrument as a single track from there. But it's a lot of work, and I came here to make music. Also, midi files created IN Acid will be multitrack for real, not just pretending to be multitrack.

Uh-oh. Writing this it just dawned on me, Acid does save midi files, doesn't it? How am I going to get my stuff into Finale otherwise? I fear I have made a bad investment.
Tor

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/5/2004 3:52:29 AM

Peter,
Started Acid 5 alone (no VSampler). Opened a midi file. Sveral instruments on one Acid track. Played though the built-in softsynth by default. Opened Properties, clicked on General tab. Doubleclicked on one of the track numbers, changed it. Nothing happenedClicked on the save as icon, saved (with the canged number) under a different name (As mid - thank Clapton). Deleted track on Acid timeline. Dropped the newly saved file on the timeline instead and it still played like the original file. Nothing was changed.
Please find both midi files here:
original
changed

Cold this have anything to do with how Voyetra DOP creates midi files? Anyhow, Finale has never had any problem with these files.
Tor

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/5/2004 11:04:20 AM

Another strange item:
I open Acid and drag an old midi file to the timeline. The different midi channels play the right instruments. I then open Properties > General. After trying a few mute/solo settings on the various instruments I drag the volume slider for one of them and Acid freezes up! "This program is not responding".
I can't blame the Delta66 driver this time, because I've changed to the reputedly good .27.
I need help here. I realize it's Sunday and all, so I'll bump this thread sometime during office hours tomorrow.
Tor

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/5/2004 5:30:04 PM

I am unable to repro that after a channel change has been made on a track in the General page that the channel change is not followed.

This works for VSampler or any other softsynth. I tested this with the mid files you provided.

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/5/2004 5:31:41 PM

I have confirmed that a channel change to a track on the General page is not saved to a mid file when you either save or save as. I have entered this as a bug.

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/5/2004 5:34:21 PM

I have reproduced the lock up and crashes with VSampler. This appears to be a bug in VSampler and have attempted to contact MAz regarding this problem.

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/5/2004 11:45:11 PM

Lock up.
A bug in VSampler can not explain why I have lock ups without VSampler running.

Channel change not saved.
I have noticed that when you play a mid file from the General page it plays the file as it is on the disk regarless of edits you have made on the timeline. Neither does this sound like a bug in VSampler.

Channel change not followed.
I'm still looking at VSampler to see if I've missed a setting somewhere. But it remains a fact that any channel change done by leftclicking the keyboard (?) icon on the track head is immediately followed, while changes made in the General page are not. This, however, is not true for the built-in softsynth. This, of course, points to VSampler, but I fail to understand why the midi data as such should be different in the two cases, and thus be able to provoke a difference in VSampler's behaviour.

saving midi
I got worried when I found that mid was not available on the Save As menu in Acid, but I releaxed when I saw that I could save midi from the Properties pages. Then it was confirmed (see Peter's post above) that this function isn't working properly. So, Acid can not (as yet) save midi files - right?

Tor

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:12/6/2004 6:49:52 AM

> So, Acid can not (as yet) save midi files - right?

Wrong. I edit and save MIDI files in ACID all the time. What Peter was saying is that it cannot save the MIDI file that you imported; meaning that something in the MIDI stream that was put there by the program that created the file, does not sit well with ACID.

BTW, I installed the VSampler 3.5 Beta RC1 and it just crashed in ACID when I inserted it as a soft synth. I realize this is beta code but it is a release candidate and it worked in SONAR 4 just fine. So there are some issues with VSampler and ACID. I didn’t try the 3.0.4 demo.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/6/2004 9:15:16 AM

I did not realize from your msgs that your lockups were with VSampler not in use. I have not seen them based upon the process and workflow you presented except when VSampler was active and part of the workflow.

I am unable to reproduce your General Page channel issues with any softsynth whether I play from the Main time line or any of the editors for a track. I had to do nothing special to VSampler or any other softsynth (or external hardware device) to make this work. I can only assume that some step that you are preforming is missing from your workflow.

ACID saves MIDI files, but fails to correctly include channel changes that are made on the General page. This will be address in an update to ACID 5.0.

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/6/2004 9:16:28 AM

No, that is not what I was saying.

TorS has discovered a bug that Save or Save As of a MIDI track's file does not correctly save out any channel change settings made on the General Page.

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:12/6/2004 10:03:21 AM

Oh, OK. Got it. I never put more than one MIDI channel on a track when I record so I never noticed it didn't save the channel changes.

Hey while you’re fixing that (big grin ;-D)... could you make ACID save the BPM that the file was recorded with. I realize that ACID ignores the BPM but other MIDI editors don’t. Having every MIDI file recorded in ACID show up as 120BPM when used with other programs is kind of a pain.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (or not)

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/8/2004 2:35:36 AM

There IS something fishy about my Acid 5, but I can't tell if it's the rewire department that's buggy - or inadequate - or XP Pro that's off its rocker. The install seemed very normal (I've installed a lot of SoFo/Sony programs since Sound Forge 3 and Vegas Audio and I've never seen behaviour like this before).
I'm giving up on the Channel selection thing in the General page. Even a fresh re-install of VSampler achieved nothing. I want to open type 1 midi files so that channels become tracks!

But then, with Acid running on its own, I composed a loop by re-arranging three others and rendering it to a new track (no midi at all here). I then soloed one of the three "original" tracks and Acid froze up, giving me the following explanation:
The exeption unknown software exeption (0xe0434f4d) occurred in the application at location 0x77e73887

I've seen this before, because I had it written down already. And I know that at least this time nothing else was running (well, Opera and Pegasus were running, but I don't think they compete with Acid).

I have XP Pro 5.1, build 2600, DirectX 9.0c, P4 2.6 gHz, and 1024 MB RAM.
Everything is recently installed on a newly formatted C-drive, so the machine is fairly uncluttered.

And yes, Acid has frozen up when I've adjusted the channel volume sliders in General page, even when VSampler was not running. Not every time, though.
Tor

Subject:RE: More wrongs in Acid midi

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/8/2004 8:02:49 AM

Start a project. Set the time to 7/8 and the tempo to 100 BPM. Add a midi track. Open the piano roll window and write one bar worth of music. Go back to the timeline and see how it works. Whatever it is, it's not 7/8.
But if you do the same thing in 4/4 you'll get a perfectly looping bar that you can pull out for the duration you wish. What is this - a TOY?
Tor

Subject:RE: More wrongs in Acid midi

Reply by: TorS

Date:12/8/2004 9:21:59 AM

The piano roll window is out of touch with the timeline.
Open any midi file in Acid. Delete the first two bars and pull the rest up front. Then go to the piano roll window and pless play. What do you hear? The first two bars (and then the rest).
Tor

Subject:RE: More wrongs in Acid midi

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/8/2004 11:35:07 AM

If I understand what you mean, the behavior is reversed and follows the ACID "paradigm" for working with meida.

The Piano roll does not refelect changes on the main time line.

The main ACID time line reflects edits made in the Piano Roll in the events you paint on a MIDI ACID track.

The Piano Roll is an editor of the "media" or file imported to an ACID track.

This is ACID's pardigm for all media . There is no difference than how you edit a Wave file in ACID.

In order to edit a wave file in ACID, you must load it into Sound Forge or some external editor. The changes you make are then reflected to the main ACID time line.

The only reason that we permit editing of MIDI in ACID was because we don't offer a "MIDI Forge" tool to permit the MIDI equivalent or editing that Forge provides.

Yes, we know that users want a different model for working with MIDI in ACID. That is, a traditional MIDI sequencer approach. Currently, that is not what ACID is or offers. ACID is a "media" sequencer, whether that be Loops, One-shots, or MIDI.

Peter

Subject:RE: Midi bugs (was:Multitrack midi (or not))

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/8/2004 11:45:54 AM

I think I understand why you are having problem, but I may be wrong in how you are working.

If you have VSampler 3 ReWired to ACID, then all channels of the MIDI file on an ACID MIDI track will route to a single "ReWire MIDI device". This is how ReWire exposes MIDI "ports". Each ReWire MIDI port is a single channel. It does not expose a 16 channel MIDI port. This is why channels in the ACID MIDI track are all routed to the same "voice" in VSampler.

The only work around is to break the multi channel MIDI file into seperate MIDI files or Tracks in ACID.

ACID does not permit the routing of the MIDI channels of a single track to multiple destinations.

The alternative is to use the VSTi version of VSampler 3. The VSTi exposes a single mulitchannel MIDI port. However, there is the crashing bug in VSampler that I mentioned elsewhere in this thread. This basically prevents VSampler from being of any real use as a VSTi in ACID 5.

Peter

Subject:RE: Midi bugs (was:Multitrack midi (or not))

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/8/2004 4:03:45 PM

Peter said:
"MIDI Forge"

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh........now I like the sounds of that!!!! So are you ready for some feature suggestions, or should I just mail you a copy of my Studio Vision manual? :-)~

Let's see...Acid 6...right click on midi event and select....""Open in Midi Forge" or "Open Copy in Midi Forge".

Oh don't forget we'll want "midi forge" to be a multitrack editor/sequencer rather than just a single track recorder/editor.....or will that be a task more suited for "Vegas Midi"?
:-)

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later)

Reply by: nutrapuppy

Date:1/26/2006 10:07:04 PM

<cursing deleted>
So...like, uh...WHEN?
And WHY?
Was this a joke? Did it not merit fixing? Was it not fixable? Is ACID 6 going to have that bug? Will you tell us before we buy it?
Surely you people can do better than allow such a crippling bug from continuing for over a year.
Please explain why it has not been fixed?




"ACID saves MIDI files, but fails to correctly include channel changes that are made on the General page. This will be address in an update to ACID 5.0.

Peter"

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/26/2006 10:40:52 PM

This is fixed - and I just verified - in ACID 5.0c.

To be clear:

- You create a track in ACID - record, open a MIDI file, drag a MIDI file, new track and paint notes - however.
- This track is assigned to channel 1
- You go to the general tab of the MIDI Track's properites and change the channel from 1 to 12.
- You then do a save as or save from the MIDI track properties page.

The MIDI file written correctly marks the MIDI data with channel 12.

What are you doing that is not working for you?

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later)

Reply by: nutrapuppy

Date:1/27/2006 1:41:51 PM

This is NOT fixed - and I just verified - in ACID 5.0c.

DO EXACTLY the process you outlined.
Now, after the save or save as (which does indeed sometimes reflect the new channel change, but don't be fooled), delete that midi track from your project.

Open the midi track back into your project. What channel does the general tab indicate?

Mine has reverted to the original midi channel.

Now, I don't have to remove the track from my project to make this happen. USUALLY it reverts back to the original midi channel as soon as I proceed with my project. For instance, most often I start playing back and instantly the midi channel reverts, playing back the wrong instrument.
However, I have been able to sometimes get the correct MIDI channel to play back, but I cannot make it happen consistently, and as soon as I reopen the project it has reverted.

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later)

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/27/2006 6:03:06 PM

I am unable to reproduce this behavior. The channel change is always persisted to the file and the channel change on the general propeties page sticks and is restored after the project is reloaded.

Peter

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later)

Reply by: nutrapuppy

Date:1/27/2006 6:53:20 PM

I say its a bug then. I started a clean new ACD file, followed YOUR procedure that you outlined, and the midi file does not keep the new channel.

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later) UPDATE

Reply by: nutrapuppy

Date:1/28/2006 5:05:46 PM

One bit worth noting is that when I click SAVE or save as in the Properties after editing the MIDI channel on the General tab, the MIDI Channel field does not usually turn back to grey. It remains white as if the cursor just selected the area for editing.
On these occasions, this happens no matter how many times I click on SAVE or SAVE AS.

On a handful of occasions, I was able to get the field to return to grey with the new MIDI channel correctly indicated. This seems like the desired behavior.

However, on most of these seemingly correctly saved occasions, when I left the General tab, the field reverted to the original, undesired state.

On two occasions, the field did correctly save and I was able to work as one would expect.
I am unable to determine any circumstances that would have made these two saves work correctly as opposed to the more common, buggy behavior I am experiencing.

Subject:RE: Multitrack midi (1 yr later) UPDATE

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/28/2006 7:24:50 PM

That sounds like the problem.

The channel is not committed while the edit box - when it is white - is existed. After you change the channel to what you want, hit the enter or tab key. This commits the change.

What is happing is that you click on the save or tab to the list view, and this is not forcing the channel change you entered to get committed. Tabbing to the list view is by design. That is, you have not commited, so we assume you changed your mind.

Hitting the save/save as should commit.

The simple workaround is to hit enter or tab when you are done changing the channel, and then saving or tabbing to the list view.

Peter