Subject:Help for a "No Talent"

Posted by: NaperRick

Date:11/26/2004 3:45:50 PM

First a confession...
I know almost nothing about music and song construction.
I own both Vegas 5 and Screenblast Acid
I would like to be able to create my own background music for my videos and have played around with SB ACID.

My two major problems are:
1. How to make something that actually sounds like a song
A. Songs usually have a recognizable melody
B. Songs usually have a different beginning
C. Songs usually have a big finish that is recognizable as a finish
2. I don't know how to take the loops I have access to to make something that actually sounds like a song.

So my questions are:
1. If there a "Song creation for Dummy's" book available that give a cookbook set of directions on creating a song from loops?

2. Is there an "absolute must" loop package or packages that would have all the pieces that would allow a "Dummy" to create a decent sounding song to use in a video.

My other confession is really am looking for a cookbook because I really don't have the inclination to learn a whole lot beyond what I need for my videos.

Thanks in advance,
Rick

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: ExtraEcho

Date:11/26/2004 6:05:18 PM

here's my solutions to your problem (mind you that my solutions may not work for you)

how to make something that actually sounds like a song? well that depends on what you mean by sounds like. do you mean in audio quality and presentation or in structure? if you mean by quality and presentation you should get a cd by someone as a benchmark. listen back to it frequently and listen to it's construction. how it's mixed and all that esotheric technical stuff that you are much better off searching google for information about (theres lots of it) if you mean the latter well theres no real rule or guideline to follow you can make something really complex like a yes song or really simple like a velevet underground song. it's all up to you.

songs usually have a recognizable melody but then they dont. it's all preference. simple melodies and complex melodies aren't too important really. it's just what works best for you and what you like. buy a midi keyboard. very easy to play simple one finger melodies and easy to record the midi data into acid.

songs usually have a different beginning but sometimes they dont. yet again this is all up to what you want. go over to acidplanet and listen to see how many songs have a different beginning from the rest of it. not too many. this is all up to the creator how he wants to present his piece.

songs usually have a big finish that is recognizable....but then theres motown and the motown fade. sometimes fading out is better. but it's still up to you. there is no right or wrong way for you to do whatever the hell it is you want to do and if you like it thats all that really matters in the end.

it's hard to actually take prerecorded loops and arrange them into an actual song without making it sound like loops. but that why i play instruments. the best approach is to preview a bunch of loops til you find one you like and inspires you and starts you off on creating something.

buy a book on music theory and songwriting. i doubt theres much info about working with loops but you can apply some of it to loops (drum loops bass loops piano loops etc) when arranging. definitely a must-have resource for those with no knowledge about writing music.

there is no must have loops library that can be recommended without further info. what kind of music? each library from sony is geared to a specific type or style of music. start of with the 30/300 loops available on acidplanet.com, along with the 8packs that are available there, and maybe try your hand at the remix contests there. it's all about practice and creating technique (when you aint got any) and also you get a lot of free loops without having to buy anything.

or you can pay me to write music for your video....lol

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:11/26/2004 6:57:29 PM

It helps if you start with a loop library that is in the style of the music you are trying to create. If all you have is sample loops, you will get discouraged very quickly as they usually don’t contain enough of any one style of loop to make a decent song. You obviously underestimate your song making knowledge since you understand what there actually is a structure to music. Many good loop libraries will come with intro loops and finale loops (usually a sustaining chord).

Use the knowledge that you already have to guide you. Start by taking a song that is close to what you want to emulate and Beatmap it into ACID. Then decorate it with your own loops. Finally, remove the original song and continue to fill in the empty space with more loops. What you have left is your original song.

Before you know it, you will get the feel for what it takes to compose a song and you will be creating music without thinking much about the mechanics of it. Like anything else, your must practice, practice, practice. Tell yourself you are going to throw away the first few songs so there is no pressure to make them good. Many people get stuck on making that one great song and never get past that (or get any songs finished). Don’t fall into that trap.

~jr

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: aquazodiac

Date:11/27/2004 6:28:12 AM

Perhaps you should have bought a copy of Magix 2005 Deluxe. A different program altogether, yet uses loops just like Acid. With Magix you can generate a new song using one of the loop libraries that come with the program. It uses a internal program called "Song Wizard". It builds songs randomly and you can edit them as you choose. I don't need to do this but for a novice such as yourself, its a big stepping stone in creating songs that sound decent. Good luck
AZ-Lizzy

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: DavidPJ

Date:11/27/2004 7:23:50 AM

I'm also wrestling with solutions for soundtracks for Vegas. If you want something easy, have you looked at www.smartsound.com by Sonicfire Pro? This seems to be a great solution if you don't want to spend a lot of time constructing music from loops.

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:11/27/2004 7:53:58 AM

Another way to learn is the 8 packs on acidplanet.com. You can see how a "looped" song is put together and even re-arrange it.

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: NaperRick

Date:11/27/2004 8:32:35 AM

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. I have downloaded the 8 packs and played with them some. I have also used the version of SmartSounds that comes bundled in Pinnacle Studio. I have also purchased and Learn Acid in XX Days books and dug thru that.
I guess part of my problem, besides no musical talent and limited time, is a desire to end up with good sounding music. The version of SmartSounds I used was OK but they adjusted the length of the song to match the video in kind of an ubrupt manner so it doesn't really sound natural. The 8 Packs are neat but the learning curve to get to that level still seems pretty high.
I liked JohnnyRoy's suggestion. I hadn't thought of trying that approach.
It seems like there is a big gap between those that use Acid and have musical knowledge and those how would like to use Acid, but don't have the knowledge (and the time/desire to acquire it). I keep hoping to find a "silver bullet" but like most things in life, it requires work to accomplish anything good. I was just hoping to shorten/simplify the process as much as possible.
Everyones contributiions have been greatly appreciated. Looks like an opportunity for some creative person, if there are enough others like me out there, to market a good training product to give "no talents" the required knowledge to make Acid useful.
Rick

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:11/28/2004 3:24:33 PM

I enjoyed reading this thread. Like a lot of others, when I first got Acid, I thought, hey, this isn't making music because it's too easy. The reality is that almost anyone can get a few loops grooving together, but then what? It takes skill to turn that into a full blown song.

I think you have to recognise that making music takes as much time as compiling a video - perhaps even more. I have deliberately stayed away from video because I don't have enough time to do everything I want with music yet. Perhaps one approach might be to team up with a musician/composer for your projects? Or buy library music instead of loops?

Back on the composition process. Here is one way of building a song in Acid:

- Start with a loop or phrase that grabs you. Paint it and start it looping.

- Audition other phrases while your starter phrase is looping. Some will work, so add them to the track list and paint them in. Skip the ones that don't work.

- After a while, you will have half a dozen loops merrily bubbling along together. You will eventually reach a point where adding more loops doesn't make much difference, and may actually make it worse. The key here is to STOP browsing your library, and vow to make a song out what you have got. You might also collect any variations on the loops you have (eg you may have three or four different versions of the same drum loop that you can use to stop it getting boring).

- Now the work begins. Save everything as a song. You might want to take a break before proceeding. When you come back to it, look for something you can make (say) an 8-bar section out of. You don't have to use every loop - just 3 or 4 should be enough. Don't worry about intros or endings just now.

- Once you have a section, use the markers to call it "Section A" or something like that.

- You can make a song out of repeats of Section A with parts dropping in and out, but it helps if you can find a contrasting Section B. Perhaps build it out of the loops you didn't use for Section A.

- Depending on how long the Sections are, you can now link them to make 2 or 3 minutes worth of music. Say 2 x A, 1 x B, 2 x A, 1 x B, 1 x A. Of course, it will be full of repition, but you will change this later.

- Once you get a structure that works, time to find ways to vary it. This is where you can use the loop variations you collected earlier, or chop up some of the loops to make variations. At this point, you can allow yourself to go back to your library to get new loops to add variation and finish the overall structure - these will generally be melody or vocal rather than foundation drum or bass loops.

- Last thing, do the intro and ending. Do it now rather than first, because now you know what material your song uses, so you can use the intro to introduce say 2 or 3 ideas that may not develop until later in the song. The ending will usually be suggested by the kind of mood you have created. Perhaps gradually drop out everything except the key idea or a secondary idea, perhaps fade out or perhaps an abrupt cut.

- Haven't mentioned FX. Don't get too hung up on adding FX early, unless they are integral to the composition. Once you have something reasonable, better to leave it for a day, maybe make a copy to listen to in your car or on the bus. When you come back to it, you will probably hear lots of things that need fixing, but hopefully you will still like the basic overall idea.

Subject:RE: Help for a "No Talent"

Reply by: drt

Date:1/23/2005 8:45:21 AM

great piece of advice. To many people Acid can look deceptively simple but the very fact that it all sounds a bit horrible if you just throw it all together without any planning causes many people to give up. It`s not really an instant music production tool, hit a few buttons and voila instant songm but that is the fun of the beast!