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Subject:Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Posted by: edwardj
Date:11/24/2004 1:24:31 PM
After seeing my friend's new setup of ACID 5.0 I was amazed... AT HOW SLOW IT WAS. It seemed that with the installation of ACID 5.0 came a little surprise in the form of a new feature: Media Manager. Now from what I understand about the Media Manager is that it is a database of all the metadata of all your sounds, loops, etc that you use in ACID. Metadata possibly meaning, length of the loops, which octave it is default, peak levels, author information, etc etc. Now I can imagine that it was a chore to manage all these sound/data files, but Sony's solution to add MSDE (the desktop version of MS SQL Server) was not only unnecessary, but also problematic in many more areas. MSDE is by no means some little add-on that ACID uses. Read the forum... this thing activates different services on startup, takes a big chunk of memory while running. Don't believe me? Go into the options screen and find the disable the option to "Enable Media Manager" (or something to that context). Exit out of ACID and go into task manager and kill the sqlserver.exe process. Then try going back into it and messing around with ACID. You will already see a fix. There is a easy solution to this problem: do not include Media Manager and SQL Server in the base install. Search the forum some more and you will find more problems just trying to get MSDE to install on a lot of computers let alone just the ACID software. If someone really wants to use this feature, they should be able to install it separately and endure the cost of performance that is plagued with addition. The second solution would be the best but requires another version: don't use MSDE as your database for Media Manager. There are plenty of open-source options available out there. From a financial standpoint, imagine all the Microsoft Licensing fees you will save as well as customer service issues JUST TRYING TO INSTALL YOUR PRODUCT IN THE FIRST PLACE! You want a good solution? I'm sure you can port SQLite (http://www.sqlite.org/) or some other database solution to meet your needs while giving the consumer the power and speed they need to manage, and more importantly, create the music they do without buy a whole new box to support one feature. Well there's my two cents? Anyone from Sony reading this? I'm sure anyone that's seen ACID 5.0 will at minimum agree at the performance cost that are seen... Let me know. |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:11/24/2004 1:32:07 PM
I dunno. ACID Pro 5 performs fine for me with the Media Manager active. And I have a pretty meager system (which I plan on rectifying soon). True, ACID starts up slower than in previous versions, but after it loads, it's not a problem. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: ExtraEcho
Date:11/24/2004 2:27:27 PM
well if it is an option to enable the media manager inside of acid then it should be an option to have it installed and activate on startup also. some people just do not want to have what is essentially uneccessary services running and sony should have thought of that prior to releasing acid5. i know i would never use it and having it running services in the background serves absolutely no purpose for me and others i presume. my solution for this was to go back to using acid 2.0 and dump the demoof a5 becuase 2.0 is rock solid and doesnt do unnecessary things that i dont need it to do. methinks sony and the developers dont give a crap what people think about these added things. they'll keep adding them and people will keep complaining about them. i'm sure eventually they'll catch on but that wont be for awhile (just look at their use of atrac) |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: jumbuk
Date:11/24/2004 2:41:34 PM
Yes, I had the same experience with Acid pro 5.0. I initially tried working with the Media Manager, but gave up on it because of the speed loss. I have a big sample library, including a lot of Sony's own libraries. The Media Manager is a nice idea, but the overhead is just too much for many of us. I think Sony should persist with it though, as it will eventually be the way to go. The MSDE comments are interesting. I also use a free sample catalogue utility (called Sample Catalogue, at http://www.geocities.com/samplecatalog/), which runs quite fast once you have indexed your drives. So it is possible to create a fast utility using non-MSDE technology. I agree that SOny should look at alternative ways of doing this. To be fair to Sony, they have provided a way to disable the Media Manager, and users have been asking for some way to handle large volumes of sample material. It reminds me of Microsoft - one of the constant demands from early Office users was an easier way of accessing Help, and an interface that only showed the options that users used the most. So Microsoft created the talking paperclip and the fold-out menus - which everyone hated! |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: MyST
Date:11/24/2004 2:47:47 PM
Just curious but, what speed loss? You mean apart from start-up? You're seeing a reduced performance in AP5 during usage? I haven't seen any but I haven't pushed the envelope at all yet. Can you give specifics when you start seeing performance drops? Mario |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date:11/24/2004 2:59:24 PM
> I was amazed... AT HOW SLOW IT WAS I don’t perceive ACID Pro 5.0 to run any slower than ACID Pro 4. Sure, it starts up slower with the Media Manager turned on but you can turn that off. I’m just not seeing it being slow at all. It runs about the same once it’s loaded. > this thing activates different services on startup, takes a big chunk of memory while running. Don't believe me? No, I don’t believe you. The sqlservr.exe process takes up 24MB of my 1GB of memory. That’s 2.4% of my memory. I would hardly call that a big chuck. I don’t think I use a single function in Microsoft Word 2003 that wasn’t in Word 1.0 so every release after 1.0 was bloat-ware to me. I’ve read posts complaining about all the unnecessary MIDI functions and VSTi capabilities in ACID 4 from people who don’t use MIDI. I would imagine that ReWrire was a total waste of Sony’s time and money for people who don’t use ReWire. Personally, I use both and ACID Pro 5.0 is the best release of ACID yet for me. I guess it depends on whether or not you use the new functions. Just before ACID Pro 5.0 launched, there were people on the DMN Forums asking about databases they could use to catalog their loop libraries. So there are people who will gladly wait an extra few seconds for ACID to load for the auto-cataloging functions it provides. I don’t believe ACID Pro 5.0 runs any slower once loaded. There are only three things you can depend on: Death, Taxes, and more software features that take up more memory. ;-) ~jr |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: MikeDee
Date:11/24/2004 3:09:52 PM
As I'm sure you remember, the .NET Framework [1.1] is required to install ACID Pro 5. Therefore, it appears fairly obvious that ACID Pro 5 is a .NET app...and .NET, as well as SQL Server (and, thus, MSDE...note the first two characters of this acronym) was developed and deployed by none other than...... Microsoft, of course! If we're to expect Sony to go with another database engine...I'm not gonna hold my breath. Fortunately, I've experienced no issues with either the .NET Framework or the [SQL Server] MSDE on my Sony Vaio laptop (running W2k SP2). However, I'm looking at the ProStar 9095...hopefully, ACID Pro 5 and all my other software will play nicely on this box (running XP Pro SP1 or 2 [?]). |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: Studio_de_Lara
Date:11/24/2004 4:10:25 PM
Try using ACID 5 as a Rewire Slave, with and without Media Manger. Hmmm. Rich |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: DanS
Date:11/24/2004 4:45:57 PM
I installed it without MM, and disabled it in the options. I already have my loop libraries catalogued in my machine. |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date:11/25/2004 8:18:34 AM
> I was amazed... AT HOW SLOW IT WAS "No, I don’t believe you. The sqlservr.exe process takes up 24MB of my 1GB of memory. That’s 2.4% of my memory. I would hardly call that a big chuck. " You think 24 MB for a background service that sees very little use is okay? Most of my Acid 3/4 projects didn't use 24 MB of RAM for constructing and playing back the entire project! I have 2GB of RAM but I still ain't gonna let some background service consume 24MB of it. VP |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date:11/25/2004 3:59:14 PM
> You think 24 MB for a background service that sees very little use is okay? Yes, the copy of WinWord that I’m using to type this post is consuming 19MB of memory and Internet Explorer is taking 28MB of memory. If the Media manager gets no use then disable it and it will take up zero (0) memory. If you do use it, then it doesn’t get very little use, it gets a lot of use because it is catalog every loop that you drop on the timeline and if you have your CD’s catalog then you are using it to search for loops to drop them on the timeline instead of the explorer window. The fact remains, 2.7% of memory is not a big chunk of memory. I suggest you simply turn it off if it bothers you. ~jr |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: eppik
Date:11/25/2004 4:19:02 PM
Just skip the MSDE install. Simple as that. I manage my files just fine :D I still regret having to install .NET. It should not have been necessary. |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: MikeDee
Date:11/25/2004 5:34:55 PM
The .NET install is necessary if the ACID Pro 5 or any of its components were written on or in the .NET Framework (thus, implementing the Common Language Runtime [CLR]). The question is: How much of the app was rewritten in .NET? If, for example, only the Media Manager component was written in .NET, then the .NET Framework, as well as MSDE, should be an *optional* install feature or component [using InstallShield for Windows Installer's terminology], not a "required prerequisite." Peter, can you help clear the air here? Thanks in advance. :) |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date:11/25/2004 6:32:15 PM
> I still regret having to install .NET. It should not have been necessary. I already had this installed from using Vegas 5 so it wasn’t an issue with me. I just updated my ATI Radeon graphics card drivers last week and they pre-req the .NET Framework as well. Get use to it. This is Microsoft’s future development platform. Sooner or later, something is going to require it and it will be part of the base OS next time around. It’s just a collection of DLL’s that live on your hard drive and if you aren’t using an application that uses it they take up no memory. ~jr |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/25/2004 8:57:56 PM
.NET is fundamental to Microsoft's platform strategies. We have adopted it and it is and will be a requirement of most if not all of our applications in the future. The Media Manager is a feature of ACID 5.0. It is part of the product as we defined it. It can be disabled, but it will always be installed and enabled by default. Future versions of ACID and our other products will take advantage of this technology and expand on its utility and interaction with our tools. Peter |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: MikeDee
Date:11/25/2004 11:53:16 PM
Thank you, Peter; you've confirmed my assumptions and beliefs. :) Basically, Microsoft "is" .NET; gone is (or soon will be) COM+, which replaced Windows DNA, etc. ASP3 has given way to ASP.NET (no more InterDev; hello, VS.NET IDE); ADO (which replaced RDO and DAO [well, there's still MS Access :) ]) and its recordsets gives way to ADO.NET and its [disconnected] datasets...etc. I figure Media Manager implements ADO.NET with SQL Server 2000. In fact, I envision Sony leveraging .NET by making Media Manager the central back end [database] of all of the Sony apps...makes sense. Then, perhaps, a Web service or portal can be developed to, for example, download 8-packs and, on the fly, catalog them in the Media Manager...among other things...methinks you get the picture. ;) Yep...guess I can get used to it....... |
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Subject:RE: Does .NET Framework change your machine?
Reply by: jackn2mpu
Date:11/26/2004 3:54:47 PM
Peter: Thanks from this end also for the words about the .net software. What I think ticked off a lot of people here was that nothing was mentioned on Sony's website, in the manual, or the readme file about what exactly got installed during the install, and, by extension, what our machines needed to be setup for in the way of services. You may want to think about adding this info in future releases of Sony software. Thankis much. Jack |
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Subject:RE: Sony ACID 5.0 & Microsoft SQL Server for Media Manager is a Bad Combo
Reply by: jwf
Date:11/29/2004 7:32:17 AM
If you are working on a resource constrained PC, in the Media Manager options dialog you can have the MSDE service automatically stopped when ACID Pro 5 exits. Then you aren't paying any overhead for "background" services when ACID is not running. If you don't find the Media Manager useful in your own workflow, you can always turn it off from the ACID Pro 5 preferences. |