A5 Is it what you expected? -ACID Product Family - MAGIX Community Forums Archive

ACID Product Family

Subject:A5 Is it what you expected? Posted by: Rednroll Date:10/28/2004 6:35:28 AM So after reading all those complaining posts of the wait for A5 and saying what you expect to be in A5 did it meet your expectations? I understand you haven't been able to download it and give it a test drive yet, but what are your first impressions after reading the features list?
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: jardeano Date:10/28/2004 6:52:49 AM Hey,, Red-n-Roll ,,it's Rock-n- Roll,,,, looks great ,,, hopefuly this thread can go at least one day without getting spamitized <g>
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Ben Date:10/28/2004 6:53:56 AM On paper it looks absolutely awesome Red. My main question is what's the MIDI like - has it been vastly improved? What's changed? Cheers Ben
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:10/28/2004 7:00:48 AM Midi looks virtually unchanged. the chopper not touched at all - those were the two big areas I was hoping for enhancements. Doesn't look like a very big change to me. But maybe the subtleties are more profound than they look - will have to wait until I can see it in operation. There is a lot of newbie-bait and low-level stuff that's worthless to me, but I'll still be buying :-)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: billybk Date:10/28/2004 7:23:02 AM Personally, yeah I would have liked to see a Live Input Monitoring feature (like in Vegas 5). It would be nice to plug in my Les Paul and play through Amplitude or Guitar Rig in real-time, and jam to my ACID tracks. Even some limited multi-tracking would have been nice, but my personal disappointments aside, I still like the A5 update overall. I can assure you that ACID 4 will not be seeing the light of day now that ACID Pro 5 has arrived. There are just too many new features/enhancements that I will be using now, in ACID 5, that make going back to an earlier version not at all desireable nor practical, for me anyway.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: rome Date:10/28/2004 8:08:22 AM Nope not what I expected. I wanted to see more midi features. At the same time, they added great stuff that I didn't think of, specifically groove mapping quantization. I'd like to see some templates from classic drum machines (mpc, sp1200, etc...) Also, they added track folders (nice), vst effects, it looks damn good and (wipes tear from eye) a metronome! All in all it looks to be a worthwhile upgrade.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DKeenum Date:10/28/2004 9:10:39 AM Templates from classic drum machines! Especially MPC! Great idea!
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:10/28/2004 9:21:03 AM Luckily I got a chance to try out AP5 and a few of you have some of the same disappointments as I did. I was hoping that Acid would develop more on the midi sequencing side as well as audio input features. It's basically business as usual in those departments, thus why my expectations weren't met. As I pointed out to a few of you before hand, when I expressed these concerns I was told, Acid is not a DAW, nor is it a midi sequencer, it's a multimedia loop based sequencer. So Acid is, what it is and it definately got some nice features to enhance it as a loop sequencer. The groove templates are probably my favorite feature added although my personal opinion thinks it could have been better in some UI fuctionality......let me know what you think.....but anyways there's always hope for Acid 6.0. After seeing what Acid is, I personally would like for Sony to develop a midi sequencer, with VSTi, and Rewire and midi sync capabilities, so that it could be run with Acid and Vegas if that ever gets rewire in Vegas that is. I'm hoping the rewire slave addition will make quite a few people happy anyways. It doesn't do me much good, because my midi sequencer nor Vegas have rewire master capabilities.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Ben Date:10/28/2004 9:30:20 AM So Acid isn't a DAW. Vegas apparently, according to Sony, isn't a DAW. Sony then, with all these great audio apps, don't have (or don't want to have) a DAW. Crazy. Employing a MIDI programming guru would be a very wise move for them at this point. Ben
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: jtxx000 Date:10/28/2004 9:40:43 AM If you want a program for recording Tracktion is great, and it's cheap too.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:10/28/2004 9:54:00 AM > Employing a MIDI programming guru would be a very wise move for them at this point. I don’t think they lack the programming talent. They are just staying true to the paradigm that they started i.e., loop based composition. IMHO, ACID is still the beast in that area. I am very please with the feature set of ACID Pro 5.0. Are there still things I would like to see? You bet. But there is always ACID 6 for those. ACID 5 has plenty of great new features to explore. If you go back and look at the feature request post, it is obvious that Sony is listening to our requests and being as responsive as they can. At some point you have to finalize the feature list and build the product. I think they did a good job adding a little of this and a little of that to keep everyone happy. For every feature that we wanted that didn’t make it into ACID 5, you have to look at the ones that did and understand that each one takes time to implement and they all can’t get in there at once. Hey, look at it this way: At least Sony knows what we want in ACID 6! ;-) ~jr
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Vegas - The Big Gamble Date:10/28/2004 9:54:46 AM I agree Red... and I was really hoping to be able to use A5 as a MIDI Sequencer having bought Sonar 4 for this purpose a few weeks ago and am going mad that it's "not like Vegas" - it has such silly quirks and doesn't really like sharing its audio! So.. A5 "looked" (I've only seen the pictures) like a real possibility and it would be so sensible to use it in tandem with Vegas. So why, then, are Sony not developing a DAW!? It seems like they're so close.. they "do" MIDI, they "do" audio + VST & VSTi & Rewire and "even video" but after 2 yrs waiting for ACID Pro 5 there's still no sequencing solution in the product family. One question Red - I think from looking at the product details one would imagine AP5 could be used for MIDI Sequencing.. it doesn't look like it's restricted to loops from the screenshots. For anyone who has never used ACID, could you say in what way does this differs from normal MIDI Sequencing? I assume it does have physical MIDI inputs & outputs? Thanks drew PS - ACID stayed a "loop-based sequencer" but I don't see why it couldn't have become a full MIDI sequencer. After all - Vegas used to be an audio app!
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DKeenum Date:10/28/2004 9:59:50 AM I've actually been thinking about tracktion or home studio. I'd like to hear what you think about tracktion and how it's midi compares to acid's. On second thought, maybe this isn't the thread for that. I'll post a question sometime.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:10/28/2004 10:47:57 AM > one would imagine AP5 could be used for MIDI Sequencing ACID is a fine MIDI sequencer. That’s what I use it for. It’s just limited to one track at a time. (which is the way I record anyway) What it doesn’t have is the ability to punch-in and out. That makes retakes a bit convoluted because you have to place them on a separate track. I don’t use quantization or edit my MIDI data (unless its just to fix one or two notes) so I don’t care about MIDI editing capabilities. What ACID has is more than adequate for me. I just want to record my songs. The only other thing that’s missing for me is a pre-roll (count-in). Other than that I’m very happy with it. I like the fact that I can record MIDI as loops and then rearrange those loops to compose a song. So I find the loop based paradigm to be very productive. It all depends on what your requirements for MIDI sequencing are. ~jr
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:10/28/2004 11:19:35 AM JohnnyRoy is correct. Acid is a fine midi sequencer. Unfortunately for me to use it as a sequencer, it would feel like a major step backwords in how I use a midi sequencer. I am still using Opcode's Studio Vision for my midi sequencing needs. If you own a MAC you can get a free copy here. www.opcode.com. If you own a PC, the PC version is no longer available, and is supported under Win98. Studio Vision use to be the midi sequencer used most by professional studios, but was purchased by Gibson guitars where Gibson's intent was to expand on midi options for it's guitar lines through this purchase. That never happened and Vision unfortunately died soon afterwards, where most of their users sought out other options like Digital Performer, Logic Audio, Cakewalk and Cubase because the product was no longer supported by Gibson. Even today I find newer midi sequencer programs to fall short compared to Studio Vision. Cakewalk, can you do input Quantization when recording midi? You can in Vision. How about this? Say I create a 2 bar midi loop, a 3 bar midi loop, and a 5 bar midi loop? Then I want each loop to continue looping for a duration of 16 bars. Do that in Sonar and tell me how much cutting and pasting and editing you have to do on each track before you finally get done. In Vision, I would just enable each midi tracks loop function and then enter "16" for the sequence length. That would be a total of 4 mouse clicks.....count your mouse clicks as you're doing this in any other midi sequencer. Not to further side track this topic, I'll create a new topic regarding Acid's midi sequencing limitations that I have ran into. Now granted my viewpoint will be a bit biased because I'm comparing Acid functionality to Opcode's Vision which was developed as a dedicated midi sequencing program.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: jtxx000 Date:10/28/2004 1:41:59 PM I've actually been thinking about tracktion or home studio. I'd like to hear what you think about tracktion and how it's midi compares to acid's. On second thought, maybe this isn't the thread for that. I'll post a question sometime. MIDI wise, it's not that much of an improvement over Acid. However, it's much better at recording and multi tracking. die in a fire?
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:10/28/2004 3:07:32 PM Acid's MIDI is a joke and looks like it still is. And I thought the much-hyped OPT "plugin" technology was going to be fantastically flexible and allow all sorts of goodies to be plugged in ? Ah well, I was hoping that I wouldn't need to look elsewhere for a decent MIDI solution.... But I also use FL Studio and that's going to get "looped input recording" by Xmas, as well as much improved audio-handling so that might be my answer.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: PipelineAudio Date:10/28/2004 5:08:08 PM Id be interested to know if the driver model and buffering itself became changed for acid five in order to make use of VST? It could be quite possible that if SF has changed over to the scheme most other apps run, maybe the Cegas + UAD-1 problems might go away? Cant wait to try it in acid 5 and find out! then hopefully the good new stuff moves over to vegas as well
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:10/28/2004 8:01:56 PM The more I look at this release the more I think the project was run by accountants. The features are heavily slanted toward people who purchase commercial Acid loops. That's a designed-for-maximised-additional-revenue model. Enhanced MIDI and chopper controls don't encourage loop purchases therefore they're not in the release. I'm feeling this is a very cynical move.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DeadBeat Date:10/28/2004 8:03:45 PM ILMAO! You guys wasted all that time waiting for the messiah only to find out its just a skank in a new dress. Wait till you lift her skirt and find nothing but bugs.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: PipelineAudio Date:10/28/2004 8:11:34 PM The borg? Let me know how the borg's customer support is working out on the control surface they released last time? I cant even find mention of it on their page
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:10/28/2004 8:13:36 PM I forgot to mention: I believe the NI synths were added because it was damned obvious the upgrade wasn't worth US$149 without something extra...
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: dorkus Date:10/28/2004 10:26:15 PM All I wanted was to be able to monitor with FX. That was it.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: ATP Date:10/29/2004 2:21:24 AM ------------------- I'm feeling this is a very cynical move. ------------------- well, it's clear that you feel cynical about it :) i don't understand how you (or anyone else) would have expected ACID to suddenly develop awesome midi features. I remember when midi implementation in ACID was discussed before, right after v4 was released. even then it was nothing but talk about midi "having to fit into ACID's paradigm" and stuff like that. so essentially, the whole Midi implementation is flawed from concept to finish. if you consider this then do you expect Sony to rearrange their entire program just for this? i don't either. that said, i'm curious how ACID will perform as a Rewire slave, because now you can use a real midi sequencer and hook it up with ACID, so that you still get the best of both worlds (IF it runs stable that is).
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:10/29/2004 6:57:07 AM "Suddenly develop awesome MIDI features" ? Acid got basic MIDI in version 3. It got a completely bungled and laughable MIDI in version 4. It gets virtually no improvement on that for version 5. MIDI is not some new discovery for Acid. It's been there for years and it's been crap for years and looks like it'll be crap for years to come. But one competing app was able to "Suddenly develop awesome MIDI features" - no need to say which. It's the app with many ex-Acid users aboard. And their MIDI seems to fit very comfortably in the loop paradigm.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DKeenum Date:10/29/2004 7:14:12 AM Spirit, Why are you saying the things? Have you tried acid 5? If you have, tell us more about it.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:10/29/2004 7:19:11 AM Well, you can see from the specs that the MIDI handling hasn't changed. Beta testers have said the same thing - and not been happy. As I often said in the months before this, I could happily accept no MIDI improvement if there were some decent audio improvements - or vice versa. but it seems to me we get neither. Looks to me a like a app focussed for newbies and non-musical loop merchants. I suppose I'm just disappointed that I'll have to go looking for a new host after all....I was really hoping not to. But OK, I'll try to shut up until the release :-)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: stuffedspacedog Date:10/29/2004 7:37:35 AM I think we're being a bit unreasonable... if you check what we asked for in the original thread, Sony seem to have taken the concensus and implemented the most asked for features. It's easy to moan, but I challenge you to take a look back at that thread, and see what your "top line" take is on the most requested features. http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=212882&Replies=175&Page=2 I think our major gripe may be that we all love working with Acid so much that we want it to do everything... that's never going to happen, but I'm sure that working in 5 will be a big improvement on working on 4. New MIDI features? The new piano rolls looks awesome.... can't wait to get stuck into it. I don't think 5 is a release dictated by accountants, I think it's a balanced and logical improvement. Would you rather it was like Sonar? A messy working environment with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in, none of it best in class? Acid is still the best tool for working with loops - that's why we bought it right? Try using Cubase SX3 with "audiowarp" and set yourself a sixty second timer before you need to reach for a bottle of scotch! I won't even start on Live. I'll be upgrading, and I'm expecting to be happy with it... come on on now!
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:10/29/2004 8:39:37 AM Hey everyone, let's try and keep this thread civilized and on topic. If by looking at the features, and you feel Acid 5 didn't meet your expectations then say so. On the other hand I wouldn't be expected to be jumped on by other users, just for expressing your expectations, because that's what the question was when I posted it. Everyone has their own workflow and needs that they want to accomplish in that workflow. If you're hoping Acid developed more in a certain area that it didn't then say so. If Acid developed into what you where hoping for, then say so also. So far, it seems this thread is being filled with users expressing how it didn't meet their idealism and then those users are being jumped on for expressing that viewpoint. Just because you disagree with someone elses viewpoint and feel you have a grip on what Acid is about, doesn't mean your viewpoint is any more valid than the person you're jumping on. It just shows you're not willing to express your own viewpoint, while jumping on someone elses. Let's keep it clean :-)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DKeenum Date:10/29/2004 9:10:45 AM I hope I'm not being uncivil, but I guess I am a little frustrated. I've read for months how sony is abandoning acid and live is incredable, etc., and now that 5.0 is announced, it is bashed before it is even released. Shouldn't we try it first. That said, I think everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: stuffedspacedog Date:10/29/2004 9:35:26 AM I don't think I'm trying to jump on anyone's opinions... "a bit unreasonable" is hardly strong language... I'm Welsh, we prefer to hide in the hills rather than face conflict!
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:10/29/2004 10:09:25 AM YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!!YES!!! acid official kicks ableton's ass... damn if i wasn't so busy recording i could have made the beta test and be playing with this new stuff right now. oh well maybe next time. to the acid development team i'd like to say: THANK YOU acid 5 has nearly everything i've wanted in acid pro. it's like all the new features are directly from my requests. reverse rewire slave folder tracks vst groove quantize live-triggering of loops screensets i went back and looked at my AP5 requests and it's kind of scary. i forgot i threw all those ideas out there. i really didn't expect nearly everything to put in acid. things that didn't get in there but are solved anyway: 1. a vertical "traditional" mixer (with bus-to-bus i can make my own vertical mixer or with rewire i can just mix it in logic 5 or cubase SX) 2. HUI support (see above) 3. the end of the dreaded record box? 4. multitrack recording? i see this in an update. folks have been asking for this since day one.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:10/29/2004 10:37:31 AM > i wonder did you guys get rid of the dreaded record box? That would be difficult since unlike all other recording applications, ACID does NOT record into a track. It always makes a new one. So it has no way of knowing what kind of recording (Audio or MIDI) you want to do. I guess they could have made two short cut keys but pressing the record button will always have to ask: Record what? ~jr
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Cquence777 Date:10/29/2004 11:36:36 AM lol....that was funny spacedog. My opinion, which I'm sure nobody cares to hear, is that of Red. He and I have had some nasty differences in the past, but I have to agree with him on this. This forum (in my opinion) has always seemed a bit like "my viewpoint is right" no matter who was speaking.....myself included in that. The fact of the matter is that everyone's "voice" is just opinion anyway. Some have had serious & constant crashes with Acid 4, and some haven't. Some looking for certain features, and some not. Just because someone "voices" one of those opinions doesn't make he/she OR the other side wrong.....they're still just personal opinions based on how that person works, uses the software, current setup, etc, etc. So........a new movie drops at the boxoffice and everyone goes to check it out.......should no-one give an opinion of it? Should no-one critique it? And most importantly, should no-one "voice their opinion" about whether or not it met their expectations? Red said he has tried it.....and it left him somewhat lacking compared to the way he works currently. Personally, my setup sounds similar to his own....and I was looking for more Midi implementation as well. But I don't honestly think we should stop saying that. The squeaky wheel gets the grease! And for those who are happy with what they see thus far, then that's a great thing for ya! ;) Also, I'm not talking (or preaching) to anyone in here either.....just picture a guy standing by himself and talking out loud! lol
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Weevil Date:10/29/2004 8:22:07 PM From what I have seen I’m really, really impressed. There are always going to be winners and losers, but they seem to have addressed a really good range of real world issues this time round. I have often been critical in the past but I think this is an extremely positive step. The rewire stuff is particularly interesting: (I might be reading too much into it but) Perhaps Sony are finally relenting ever so slightly on their rigid development philosophies (straightjacket)? ...Maybe the horse is being to put the back in front of the cart... Perhaps this is a step towards putting the wishes of the userbase in front of absolute adherence to inflexible software design ideology. Bravo Sony, a little flexibility is a very good thing (see, the sky didn’t fall in, the word did not end), please keep it up!!!!
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Weevil Date:10/29/2004 9:33:53 PM ...Oh yeah, Love the fact that the enable snapping icon now seems to have a drop down list of grid spacing options. Been a pet peeve of mine for a long time...Tiny things like that make the program soooo much more usable. ...Just gotta get it in Vegas now...
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: jam Date:10/30/2004 4:54:16 AM what the hell you all want midi enhancements in Acid? The real enhancements are linked to loop manipulation, because this is THE purpose of acid. Midi is NOT the purpose of acid. More midi and useless features will make the program bigger and maybe more buggy for no reall enhancements. I'm satified with AP4 until now, because i do my pre-mix within it, just that. I then export track-by-track all the song and do my real mixing/fxing in another multi audio track dedicated software. This is my way, and I will not change.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MyST Date:10/30/2004 7:52:13 AM Is it everything I expected? No. I didn't expect a media manager, which should drastically cut down on the time required to find a particular style loop. I didn't expect the Groove Mapper either. That should be very useful to change a certain loop enough that it becomes unique. You don't neccessarily want to chop loops all the time to make them different. However, I did expect an evolution of Acid, and I think it's a great evolutionary step. Also, the bonus instruments are much appreciated. I was thinking of the "light" bundle of VSTi's from Steinberg, but I'll hold off until I see what these can do. Sure, I would have liked a Super Chopper and Tempo Envelopes, but there's always Acid 6. ;-) They can't put EVERYTHING into every release. All in all, very happy with Acid 5! Mario
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DKeenum Date:10/30/2004 9:07:05 AM I think the rewire slave is bigger that it looks. I would think it would require some major changes in the basic program. Maybe I'm wrong. Anybody have any ideas about that.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MacMoney Date:10/30/2004 11:16:03 AM I'm very happy with the new features of Acid 5. Now I can ReWire Reason, Acid to Pro-Tools and use TDM, RTAS, DX, VST and VSTi's plugins like URS, UA, Bomb Factory, TL Labs, Sony Oxford, Digi and Focusrite. With up to 26 stereo ReWire ports and 32 mono yea that's enough us track hungry R&B guys happy. If I want I can use the midi in PT or Acid ! I can create my own groove temples in the Groove Pool. Trigger one shots from my computer keyboard. Reverse samples. Bus to Bus are a few of the ones that caught my eye. Did I get everything I wanted?.. no but I'm very happy with Acid 5! If Acid 5 features are not your thing move on be happy. Thank You Sony! George Ware
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: kbruff Date:10/31/2004 1:59:00 PM ACID + FLSTUDIO is a powerful pair.I can do intense midi work in FL and then import to ACID, for more complex tasks. Now with AP5, I can have my express instruments, and work with AP5 or FLS, wooo-hooo.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Maruuk Date:10/31/2004 3:43:15 PM Yikes, what a dud. Better file management??? RU kidding me? Totally and slavishly oriented to b-boys and hiphoppers, whizzing on other Acid users hoping for real audio recording and full midi support. This is literally shocking, after this much time, and they basically give the customer a sub-release mere update. this ought to be 4u or 4v or whatever massive bug-fixing rev they were up to on 4. What with Cubase SX3 and Garageband and Live 4 and all the other huge strides in apps which use Acid files as part of their universe, this comes off as weak and totally yesterday's news. For rock, pop, jazz and film scoring folks who use Acid, there's shockingly little here to justify the "upgrade" beyond the metronome. Sony now joins the Yankees and the Cards in the Great Chokes of '04 Hall of Shame. Better luck next year, Sony. Hit the showers.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: dabb Date:10/31/2004 4:23:27 PM Same here, I use FLStudio and the next upgrade due out shortly will do most of what I need especially in the midi area. Here's a quote from someone on another forum "Acids glory days are now gone forever sonar & ableton are the pros choice in the field now - this release just ends the years of hope that acid may be revived" Come on now...over two years for this upgrade! dabb
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:10/31/2004 6:07:35 PM i don't understand why some people on this forum have been complaining about acid pro since AP 3 and are still here. acid 5 is well worth the upgrade. did you not read the new feature list? we now have rewire slave!!! that solves all issues with midi or recording. just run acid under you favorite midi/audio sequencer. trust me an old copy cubase, logic or nuendo would come in handy right about now. i bought an old audiomedia III card off ebay for $50 bucks 3 months ago and still haven't installed it. now i have a reason to. i can run protools 6 for tracking/mixing and still have acid or reason running right inside the protools mixer the same as vsti. you can also trigger loops live from the keyboard!!! this a major shift in acid developement because it turns acid into an loop instrument like ableton live. if they add midi support to this and the ability to use the groove mapping to quantize instead of snap-to-grid acid will be a better live performance tool than ableton live. those two thing alone are worth the price of admission to me. not mention the enhanced functional things like folder tracks, the plug-in manager, new loop explorer, even better time-stretching, and reverse. plus...vst.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Weevil Date:10/31/2004 9:07:24 PM What with Cubase SX3 and Garageband and Live 4 and all the other huge strides in apps which use Acid files as part of their universe, this comes off as weak and totally yesterday's news. Yo Maruuk, I understand what you are saying. Problem is that Sony doesn’t see themselves as competing with those programs. For better or for worse, they have slapped very severe restrictions on the scope of their applications (particularly ACID and Vegas). It doesn’t matter how much users want particular features; Sony will just point blank refuse to do it if it goes against their ‘vision’ for the program. It took a bloodbath of epic proportions (think about it, it has been literally going on for years) to get a no-brainer like Rewire to finally happen. ...All that said, I think this update is a step in the right direction. Rewire is a big deal, perhaps it will show them that they can actually bend the programs workflow/paradigm occasionally...and that the program will be stronger for it. ...I stumbled across this blog a little while ago: http://weblogs.asp.net/chris_pratley/archive/2004/04/27/120944.aspx It’s the history of Microsoft Word. Written by the head of the Word development team. Tells the story of how it went from nowhere, to dominating the word processor market... So many parallels to our little DAW world it’s scary. Made me think of SF/Sony the whole way through...and not in a good way...
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/1/2004 6:50:28 AM I agree rewire slave is a big deal. Now if I used an app like Sonar, Protools, Cubase, or Nuendo this would really be a terrific feature of linking Acid to my DAW of choice or midi sequencer of choice. Unfortunately for me I use Sony's Vegas as my DAW, which doesn't have rewire host/slave capabilities or any midi sequencing. I mean, in how many ways can you force someone to use another product before they exclusively start to use that other product? I think a rewire host feature addition update is urgently needed at this point for Vegas.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: billybk Date:11/1/2004 10:01:45 AM "I think a rewire host feature addition update is urgently needed at this point for Vegas." I agree completely, adding ReWire client capabilities to Vegas would open up a whole "host" (pun intended :) ) of posibilities. I admit, even though I have Vegas 5, I use it mostly for editing video and only occaisionally for laying down or mxing audio tracks. I am still getting a kick out of running ACID Pro 5 as an instrument (rewire slave) inside SONAR 4. I can start a project in ACID and then ReWire it to SONAR for multi-tracking audio tracks and adding MIDI. In SONAR 4, I can then take advantage of it's new track freezing, input monitoring and comping features and other things that it does best. But, I still prefer ACID's looping, arranging , audio editing capabilites and it's elegant user interface. Funny thing is, I can have ACID rewired and open inside SONAR and have both apps looping a part of a project and be moving, adding, deleting and editing clips and other normal ACID tasks and the playback remains smooth as silk. I then try to do the same thing in SONAR and you, at times can get some brief gapping as you move & edit clips, tracks, notes around it's timeline. Which is not unusual, as SONAR 4 will do that even when not rewired to any app, but ACID, even in ReWire slave mode is as smooth and gap free as ever, except for when adding or deleting PDC related plugins, you will get a brief pause. It truly makes using loops and editing, in SONAR a joy. Now if Cakwalk would just tighten up some of these lingering gapping issues that still occur, from time to time, when editing or moving clips or tracks around the timeline, during playback.....:( They have announced a 4.01 update, so we will see...........But, being able to ReWire ACID 5 Pro to other host apps is DA Bomb! One thing I realized though, I need a faster desktop, my ol' PIII 1Ghz/512MB DAW is showing it's age, epsecially when ReWiring multiple apps.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: ozzborn Date:11/1/2004 12:47:44 PM are you still able to use vst and dx effects in acid while in rewire slave mode
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: billybk Date:11/1/2004 2:17:52 PM "are you still able to use vst and dx effects in acid while in rewire slave mode" Yes, but you cannot use in-place plugins that require PDC, like UAD-1 plugins. From what I read that is a rewire limitation. I was only making a point at well ACID Pro 5, during (normal non-rewire mode) performs doing most tasks during playback and still remain virtually gap free and still remains true even in rewire slave mode. Only when adding /deleting effects plugins do you get a momentary gap in playback. Well, you know how it is. The current hot button, buzz phrase, in DAW land, is performing "gap free" while doing everyday tasks, during playback. Don't Stop the Flow! :)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Gibsonlp Date:11/2/2004 8:26:14 AM Coolout, I don't think, at least by your statement that Acid 5 kicks Abelton's butt, that you have ever tried Live 4. There is no way you can compare the two programs. Acid is still tops for stretching loops, but Live 4 is far over the top when working with and manipulating loops and audio without stopping the music. Live is an incredible program and is still advancing. Yes, Acid is great for sitting down and composing and arranging music with loops and its stretching. Live is an "instrument" that you play and improvise with, rearrange with, record live with all without stopping the music. Acid can not and will never be able to catch up with Abelton because the two programs are completely different and were never competing in the first place. As a musician Live will always be the first choice for me and all musicians/DJs out there who work real time. I know you are excited.....but you need to compare programs that are actually competing in the music making market. Don
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coldc Date:11/2/2004 9:24:31 AM "No, not in rewire mode. From what I read that is a rewire limitation." I don't think it is a ReWire limitation as FLStudio manages to use VST and DX effects and instruments at the same time as being in ReWire slave mode. Also, as this thread is about expectations, I should add that most people's expectations of technology increase as time goes on. People originally asked for certain features (example ReWire slave) a very long time ago, they may now expect other features as OVER TWO YEARS have passed since then (and features in competing applications may cause expectations to rise). I think it's natural that some will find the price and the featureset attractive and others expect more/different features. I will wait and try the demo. On the MS Word comparison, is Acid 5 going to be all things to all people? Unlikely, but it doesn't look like Sony attempted to achieve that, whether they should attempt that is obviously going to trigger statements like "doesn't fit in Acid's paradigm" as if some users fear that adding certain new features will destroy usability of existing features. I think it is possible to add most features of a modern DAW to Acid without distrupting the ease of use if it is done intelligently. If Sony want a complete DAW product I think it is possible to extend some Acid/Vegas/everything/+MIDI combination to achieve this. They could even add reduced native versions of their SonyOxford plugins to attract users from other DAWs. They probably have the ability to overwhelm the competitors but they don't appear to have the will. As I said above, I will wait and try the demo as I hope there will be certain usability improvements as well as the large "marketable" documented features.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Iacobus Date:11/2/2004 9:29:20 AM Yikes, what a dud. Better file management??? RU kidding me? Totally and slavishly oriented to b-boys and hiphoppers, whizzing on other Acid users hoping for real audio recording and full midi support. This is literally shocking, after this much time, and they basically give the customer a sub-release mere update. this ought to be 4u or 4v or whatever massive bug-fixing rev they were up to on 4. I was wondering when you'd show up. I was getting worried. Hmm...looks like a few things that users have asked for made it into ACID Pro 5. Or maybe your head was too stuck up your ass to realize this. I didn't get everything I would have liked in the new version of ACID Pro. Do you see me complaining? No, but I'm willing to work with Sony in a constructive way. Y'all need to give up the "real audio recording and full MIDI support" angle. It's getting old. Really old. It's like wanting Excel to do the job that Word does. How does ReWire work with multitrackers anyway? It's not like they adhere to a specific tempo like ACID and Reason do. (The only thing I can think of is simply being able to link them together. Vegas 5 has ACID loop support too, but, like ACID, anything like that has to fit within Vegas' existing paradigm.) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coldc Date:11/2/2004 10:12:16 AM How does ReWire work with multitrackers anyway? It's not like they adhere to a specific tempo like ACID and Reason do. ACID and Reason both have adjustable tempos, Reason's tempo changes with the host tempo when ReWired, my guess is ACID 5 does the same thing. anything like that has to fit within Vegas' existing paradigm One thing to remember about paradigms is that they can be changed. There is a quote you may or may not find interesting- "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Iacobus Date:11/2/2004 12:03:19 PM ACID and Reason both have adjustable tempos, Reason's tempo changes with the host tempo when ReWired, my guess is ACID 5 does the same thing. That's correct, but Vegas, being a traditional multitracker, doesn't have the same ability as ACID and Reason. It can timestretch tracks and can match ACIDized loops to the project's tempo (which is really just a reference), but it's not the same. One thing to remember about paradigms is that they can be changed. That's also true, but at what benefit to whom? Users already like ACID's functions as is. It seems, to me, that users who are into MIDI heavily are discounting those that use ACID in its traditional capacity. (Not everyone, of course.) Do we just push them aside for the sake of making ACID a straight-up MIDI sequencer a la SONAR, Cubase, et al.? Sure, Sony could try to implement full-on MIDI sequencing, but the question is, how? Mind you, anything new should not get in the way with what exists. You risk screwing over your existing user base otherwise. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:11/2/2004 12:12:39 PM mD, you're a bit nasty there ! But this quote: Y'all need to give up the "real audio recording and full MIDI support" angle." is fantastic. Think about that. We are talking about an audio application aren't we ? Audio apps broadly do two things: audio and/or MIDI. You're telling us to give up on both ! Briliant strategy from Sony. If all Acid aspires to be is a looping arranger then that's what it will be. But that's a very small slice of the market, and functionality which Acid shares will a LOT of other apps. And if Acid only wants to be a loop arranger where the hell are the loop mangling tools ? The untouched chopper hardly stacks up in the loop-mangling market. Or is it that Acid's paradigm doesn't stretch so far as mangling ? Oops outside that tiny paradigm again. Now where did I put that paradigm - it's getting so small I keep losing it .... And if Rewire is meant to be the big saviour then the irony of that is delicious. Instead of using Rewire to hook up to all the apps that actually can do decent audio & midi, let's just use those app full-time. Let's hear that quote one more time: Y'all need to give up the "real audio recording and full MIDI support" angle. Get that everyone ? Now let's go and get creative with this great app. Just remember not to use MIDI or audio recording too much. And remember it's a loop arranger - but not a loop mangler. Everyone clear on the paradigm ?
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/2/2004 2:34:40 PM "You risk screwing over your existing user base otherwise." MD, you're being a bit over the top on your viewpoint in my opinion. Look at Vegas. If you take your own reasoning Vegas should have never got any Video editing features in fear that it would cripple the program and the workflow of the entire existing audio user base would be effected. Well Vegas did get video features and from everyone that I've talked too that used Vegas strictly for audio it didn't hinder their work flow one bit nor did it all of sudden cause the program to become crippled. It expanded Vegas's tarket market, in that now it not only attracted audio users, but Video users and also the users who like to perform both in the same app. Acid has the same capability to expand it's features in the same manor, where in return it will attract strictly midi sequencer users, current loop sequencer users and users like myself who would like to use both in the same app. If Sony/Sonic Foundry could make the drastic step of combining Audio and Video editing capabilities into the same app in one development revision, I don't think it's a far stretch to see a loop sequencer and midi sequencer combined into the same app. Right now with Acid, Sony is closing the door on midi sequencing users and combined loop/midi sequencing users. This may be beneficial to the strictly loop sequencer user, but people that strictly use loops to compose music are a very small nitch group.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Iacobus Date:11/2/2004 3:23:31 PM Yes, I know I was nasty there. It's just that when you see these threads over and over and over...and every time Sony responds with "ACID is a media looping tool," it's like people are putting their hands over their ears or something, screaming, "Ni! Ni! Ni! I can't hear you!" It gets annoying after awhile. How many times does it have to be said that ACID is a media looping tool anyway? (Hey, did anyone know that ACID is a media looping tool?) And yeah, the Chopper can also use some work. It ain't perfect. I know that. That's why I suggested things like a "Chopper Pool" in a constructive way. If I don't get the feature I wanted, I'm not going to sit there and pout about it. That's a spoiled, thankless and very unprofessional attitude to take. What I will do is try to work with Sony to get what I would like to see in ACID. I'm not going to slam Sony just because they didn't give me this feature right away. I'm patient. I can wait. As it stands, they did give a lot of users what they wanted in the new version. It's a fact. I'm actually happy they got what they wanted. Yet, one requested feature doesn't make it into this version and it's Armageddon? C'mon! Who do you think got 64th note grid resolution back into ACID? (I believe it went missing in Pro 3.0.) Me. They weren't going to go with the "dropping One-shots in real time" feature, but guess who convinced them to include it? Me. I could go on about how multiport VSTi soft synth support almost didn't make it either because of others, but I digress... And why did Sony listen to us? Because we were nice and cordial! Imagine that—working with a company. What a concept, huh?! You know what really throws me for a loop? (Pun intended.) A decade ago, we couldn't even f--king dream of doing what ACID can do now (not unless you felt like dropping a bucketload of cash and learning archaic ways of manipulating audio, anyway). Yet some of us still act like spoiled rock stars. What's wrong with this picture? Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Cquence777 Date:11/2/2004 3:37:56 PM And now the rubber finally meets the road! mD - I really & truly hope you're getting paid by Sony to run all of this "company interference" that you do so well in these forums. Can they do no wrong?? lol I wrote this once before in this forum and no-one paid attention to it then....especially mD, so why is it that now even MORE users are having my same take on the subject matter?? Here's what I mean. Firstly & foremost I want to make sure that you and the others in this thread understand one super-vital thing: This thread is about acid PRO 5.0!! NOT Music Studio 5.0!!! I understand that the line between "regular" software and the "Pro" versions gets grayed out ALOT in different software apps......Pro has come to mean simply "more features".........but damn, Pro is supposed to mean PRO!!!!! You know......a whole new consumer base that uses the AUDIO APP in a Professional manner?? Hello?? Now, Pro (to me here in this place) SHOULD mean advanced midi handling and capabilities & better or enhanced audio recording. Why does that NOT seem to register here?? Ok, so there are a few extra tidbits thrown in......but an Audio App that says "Pro Version"......come on man.......drop the midi and audio aspects they're getting really old?????? EVERYTHING you have said mD makes PERFECT sense if we were talking about Music Studio 5.0.....period. NOT Pro!!
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/2/2004 4:04:43 PM I agree it may be frustrating to hear time and time again. The better way to look at it is that people are passionate about using Acid, therefore they get very upset when it doesn't further develop in key areas of creating music. It's really not the users fault that they see Acid as being more than just a loop creation sequencer. As I've explained to the Sony crew it's really Sonic Foundry's fault when they introduced midi tracks into Acid and also allow you to playback and record at the same time. I've even seen Peter post in these forums when Acid first got midi tracks in v3.0 and people like myself had some disappointments with the midi functionality and he said something in the order of, "well it's only in it's infancy stage." Well here we are in v5.0 and well midi sequencing is still in it's infancy stage. So anyways don't be upset with the user, because it was Sonic Foundry/Sony who partially opened the doors for midi sequencing abilities. This by defacto, means people will use it and soon run into it's limitations and expect it to improve in future releases. They also allow you to playback and record at the same time, while they say Acid is not a DAW, so we're not going to improve the input recording limitations. Well hey, you just partially opened a DAW feature and people will start to use it that way and again expect it to improve in future versions to be more useful. I just want more multiple input recording so that I can lay my midi sequencer tracks which I have synced up with my Acid loop sequence, so that I can lay more than 1 track off at a time when going from midi tracks to audio tracks. This is a drastic workflow limitation. It seems absurd to me that Acid can see all the inputs of my sound card and can record from any of them. So why can't I just record enable all my inputs so that I can record multiple tracks in one pass? I think Sony is to blame for partially opening a door to a feature and therefore leading people's expectations. This may be unintentional on their part, but it is what it is now. Look at Sound Forge. Sound Forge has a similar record window as Acid, yet Sound Forge doesn't allow you to playback and record at the same time. You don't see anyone expecting Sound Forge to be able to record multiple inputs at the same time do you? Sound Forge also doesn't have any midi track sequencing capabilities, and no one is complaining to see midi sequencing features in Sound Forge. It is this simple fact why Acid users expect to see further development on those features and Sony should not be surprised when they start to complain about it when they don't.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MyST Date:11/2/2004 4:10:12 PM Everything mD says makes perfect sense if your talking about ACID!! You jumped onto the Acid bandwagon because it did what you wanted... loop manipulation. Guess what? It's still what Acid is all about. Acid isn't about becoming a Sonar competitor. You now wish Acid would take a different direction (multi-track. advanced midi handling). Sony has said that it doesn't plan on going that route, at least not with this release, if ever. Don't you get it? YOUR needs have changed, so do what you must to take care of those needs. Sony's offered rewire-slave capabilities as an option. Sony has added quite a few features that were listed in the "feature request" thread. Don't forget about the SUPPORT-PRODUCT SUGGESTION section of this site. Those of us who don't need extra midi handling are very happy about the new features. Then again, if I'd wanted midi/multi-track capabilities, I'd have looked at something else. But hey, I want the best looping app on the market... so here I am! So I will also defend Sony, because they're moving this product in the direction that I want! If they weren't I'd let them know what I was looking for through the product suggestion form and mention it on the forums in a civilized manner. If that wasn't helping, I'd look at another app. Mario
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/2/2004 4:52:02 PM "You jumped onto the Acid bandwagon because it did what you wanted... loop manipulation." Well not exactly. Let me open my copy of Acid Pro v3.0 and give you some history lessons from Sonic Foundry on the matter when midi was first introduced into Acid and show you what they really said. "What's New in ACID 3.0" "Use ACID to create songs, remix tracks, develop music beds, score videos, and develop music for Web sites and Flash animations. With ACID 3.0, music creation has never been easier." "New Features" Beatmapper tool for remixing. Chopper editing tool for creating slice-and-dice effects. Video scoring track. CD ripping. "MIDI recording and playback with DLS support." A powerful new effects model. Attack, sustain, and release (ASR) envelopes. Track envelopes that lock to events. Higher-fidelity pitch shifting and time stretching algorithms. There it is it says " With ACID 3.0, music creation has never been easier." and "Use ACID to create songs" and then it futher shows a new midi feature. So no where in those marketing sales pitch statements did it say Acid was strictly a loop sequencer.....infact it says it's a tool to use to create songs. Hey, how many people use midi to create songs? Anyone? Anyone? I bet there's a few out there, ya think?
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: ZAZKUASH Date:11/2/2004 7:03:14 PM I only expected REWIRE and more Stability ,If i have the second too im going to play a lot with ACID
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MyST Date:11/2/2004 7:39:05 PM But you CAN create songs with Acid using midi. Does it compete with Sonar? No. Does it even compete with Home Studio? No. Was it meant to? No. Did you want it to? Yes. Does Sony want it to? No. There's the problem. I can load up Reason, select a sound I want, and play away on my midi keyboard. Record that, edit it in Acid. Hey look-a-me! I'm creating music using midi! Just like the feature list said I could. You want more powerful midi tools...keep asking for them. Thing is Brian, you've been around here for quite awhile, and you've had your fair share of suggestions added to product releases, am I right? Why would that be? Maybe cuz you know how to get your point across without getting so revved up that we can't hear the suggestion over the ranting. As you've known for years Red, keep asking for it (in a logical manner) and chances are if you can convince them it would improve on the product, they'll give it serious consideration. ¢¢
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:11/2/2004 7:58:50 PM Gibsonlp, i have tried every version on ableton live from 1.0 to 4.0. i've met the m-audio rep for this region and actually been to his house. i've seen folks use ableton live on stage. my central point is 1.) i think acid has a better, more productive workflow making it a better production tool. and 2.) ableton live's "live" functionality is way overrated. i'm still completely underwhelemed by the ableton live experience. i think the GUI sucks. the faders are too small, the windows are backward, and generally the workspace is too resticting. you have to conform to it and get use to not being "able" resize or move windows and everything being the opposite of every other audio app. i just think that it's way overrated and my friends that have played with it do also. if i remeber correctly the ableton user base intially were mac users who couldn't get acid anyway. i'm not a casual user mind you. i am the target market for ableton live. I DJ FOR A LIVING!!! i spin 15-20 dates a month. i mix, scratch, and play a variety of genres. i use pioneer cd decks, tech 1200s, and a phrase sampler for effects and drops. i'm also a producer, engineer, and artist. i pay bills with this stuff. the only advantage ableton live has IMHO is the ability to map anything to a controller. other that i don't see what the big deal is now that acid can trigger loops in real-time. sony will probably refine this aspect of acid. trust me acid handles audio better, has a more logical workflow, and now has some real-time functuality. the NI synths sweeten the deal and make acid 5 a much better deal as a production environment than ableton live. i had this discussion earlier this year with some guys in a coffeeshop. they were saying "...but with live you can dj your own stuff". i told them, "guess what... i've been able to do that for years with a pioneer cd deck." i can loop sections, stutter, and change tempo without changing pitch of any cd. even my own tracks i burn and bring in the club. plus, i can scratch it just like an analog turntable. can you scratch your audio with ableton live? i also have two effect processors (one on the mixer and one on my phrase sampler) for flange, delays, filters, distortion, and stuff. it never has the potential to crash like a laptop does. would you depend on a notebook 6-7 hours at time, 4 days a week, in front of hundreds of people? that whole ableton being the "dj's choice" is marketing BS. don't buy into it. if you look on the ableton website they never have real djs that are in the trenches talking about live. it's always crap, "superstar" djs who get paid thousands to mix a bunch tracks that are all the same tempo for no more than 90 minutes at a time. they were probably given free copies to use on their mac laptops anyways. trust me, i'd use NI's traktor way before using ableton live for laptop-only set. if i still had a mac i'd use soundtrack before ableton live. i'd bet a acid rewired to sonar, cubase, or protools with a HUI-compatable control surface would be much more powerful on stage than a live and dinky oxygen 8. (btw, i own an oxygen 8)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:11/2/2004 8:28:26 PM Use the product suggestion facility ? Funny. Perhaps we should now wait until version 6 ? Lots of people DID use that (and the suggestion thread) to ask for midi and/or audio improvements. We got none. Instead we got stuff for manipulating commercial loops, and a whole lot of newbie features like dinky keyboards & chord-snap. Dropping one-shots n the timeline in real-time ? Reverse an entire song Wow, I've always wanted to reverse my songs, here's my $149. All this just highlights what didn't happen. As someone else pointed out this is NOT a pro release. This is a newbie / hobbyist release. Sony added a few things from the suggestions thread, but completely ignored fundamental improvements. As Red said, Sony "opened the door" with version 4 to better audio & midi, yet after 2 years have left those features untouched. It's no wonder no one from Sony has posted since the release, most of them are probably rolling about in as much agony over this dud release as we are. Well, except for the Sony accountants & marketing staff. I can hear them: "Yeah, initial reaction is poor, but that's from the insignificant 'pro user' sector. Wait until we start generating loop library sales from this !" But all we need is for version 5 to be as buggy on release as version 4 and that'll wrap up the show for this app.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/2/2004 10:43:50 PM Mario, You make some really valid points and of course I agree with the methodology of requesting features you outlined. On the other hand I also agree with Cquence777, in that he makes a very valid point in that this is Acid "Pro". Maybe we can all therefore agree to disagree in what that term "Pro" means then. Is it just a marketing term or is Acid "Pro" intended for professional use? If it's intended for professional use then the features that are added to a professional app can not and should not remain at an amateur, minimal functionality level. Therefore this means to me if Acid really wants to make good on using the term "Pro" within it's name then the midi sequencing features that where added should reach a pro level of workflow functionality. I will do my best to assist Sony in suggesting feature enhancements to help them understand what is my definition of "Pro" level midi sequencing features. The reason why I posted the information above is to show that Acid was sold as a tool to "create songs." I t never had this newly proclaimed "Loop based sequencer" limitation imposed on itself until recently where it seems to be a term of convenience. Therefore also to maintain the "Pro" name and further develop on it as a music creation tool this means the audio input recording features should also be feature enhanced to a pro level functionality. My simple definition of how I see the term "Pro" is that any feature implemented should not have restrictions on a users workflow outside the physical limitations of their system. It also means to me that if a feature is introduced at a below pro level of functionality it should not maintain that level for multiple versions before it gets updated. So the midi sequencing and the audio input/recording functions are the ones currently glaring us in the eyes because they remain at this below pro level of functionality and have been that way for more than 2 version revisions. When Rewire was introduced in Version 4.0, users like yourself where upset because it only had rewire host functionality, without rewire slave functionality. This means in version 4.0 the feature wasn't fully functional and limited a users workflow. A lot of users screamed for Rewire slave functionality and it got properly addressed to become a full Rewire pro level function. Now after seeing what v5.0 has to offer for features and seeing the midi sequencing limitations haven't been addressed, it's us midi sequencer users screaming. Your voice was heard for the added Rewire functionality, now let us midi sequencer users voice our opinion so it too can be heard.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/2/2004 10:48:41 PM "As Red said, Sony "opened the door" with version 4 " Actually, what I said was they opened the door on Version 3.0....that's when midi was first introduced into Acid. :-)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coldc Date:11/2/2004 11:44:46 PM Do we just push them aside for the sake of making ACID a straight-up MIDI sequencer a la SONAR, Cubase, et al.? As I already said, there is no need to remove existing functionality/usability. There is no reason not to have more than one type of MIDI track. The traditional users don't have to use it they don't want to. There is no reason not to have more than one type of audio track. The traditional users don't have to use it they don't want to. There is no reason adding real DAW features (better recording etc.) will remove existing functionality/usability. In fact it will aid functionality unless the developers specifically break or remove existing features (as sometimes happens with new versions of DAW software by some other developers.) People have requested certain features (including real DAW features) for over two years, as I said before it is only natural that their expectations would have increased since then. I look forward to trying the software. A decade ago, we couldn't even f--king dream of doing what ACID can do now And now there are apps that cost €39 that are hugely flexible and capable DAW solutions. Times change, the competition changes. Think about all the freeware and OSS that is released. Commercial software must be be frequently updated and include cutting edge features to stay competitive. Yet some of us still act like spoiled rock stars. What's wrong with this picture? Nothing, some people have different expectations, after more than two years.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Maruuk Date:11/2/2004 11:52:25 PM Yep, it's a death knell. You can't make users wait this interminable period and then ignore audio and midi. Sony simply chose to forget that their user community goes way beyond some kid using it as glorified DJ mixer who needs to make his beat assembly more efficient. I can point to Native Americans doing traditional-style flute and drum recordings who use AP much like a multitrack sequencer app with minimal use of the beat slicer and dicer. And film composers who use AP much like a trad sequencer. Etcetcetc. But they're all frustrated with the crappy audio implementation and cheesy midi support. They could care less about most of the new "Features". All the while the Acidloop-compatible competition has rocketed forward with track freezing and stellar organizational wizardry like we see in Garageband (not to mention its amazing midi imbedding in loops!). Sorry, Sony, real composers need apps that address their real world needs, not the "wishlists" of Jr. DJ wannabees. Game over.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:11/3/2004 12:40:46 AM i'm not going to pick a fight with Maruuk. history has proven he'll run a topic long into the ground long after you've went back to working on music again. i'm a DJ but certainly not a "wannabee". i'm also a composer and producer. my first production credit was 10-years ago (on a sony music label ironically). trust that i am a professional, so professional i should stop writing on this forum and just meet my deadlines. acid 5 is nearly everything i've wish for and some things i didn't want but will probably use anyway. i will say that acid was never meant to be an all-in-one midi/audio sequencer. the same way reason is not an all-in-one midi/audio sequencer. i dislike reason's sequencer way more than acid's. plus, it's a completely closed app. you can't even use vst/dx plugins and of course there's no audio tracks. why aren't people up in arms about it? two reasons: it does it's job well and there's always rewire slave. acid's primary job has always been loop and sample arrangement. when AP 4.0 came out remember how many folks just wanted AP3.0g with rewire slave. now we finally have that plus two versions of new features and some kick ass native instruments synths all for hopefully $99. how can anyone really complain? if i want to record a band, choir, or attempt to score a film i still have old copies of logic 5.5 on the PC, logic 4.x on the mac, and cubase. as soon as i have the time to throw in this AMIII card i'll have protools 6 running also. i like to sequence with acid and don't need to edit sys-ex data or print out a friggin' score in perfect notation. i think that acid is simple to use and almost perfect now. some people want it all in one nice cluttered package. i undertand you want more advance midi features or multitrack recording and don't care about manipulating audio. guess what? acid just isn't for you. please just use sonar or ableton live and get the hell out of this forum.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:11/3/2004 4:05:53 AM I've seen AcidPro5+rewire described on other forums as so crippled that its only use is as a mediocre (but expensive) "loop plugin". That seems about right to me. So Coolout, you're spot on. There will be less people talking about Acid soon. And thanks for your advice about Sonar & Ableton I've already downloaded the demos.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: kbruff Date:11/3/2004 5:20:34 AM Well Spoken -- Coolout
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coldc Date:11/3/2004 6:02:40 AM guess what? acid just isn't for you. please just use sonar or ableton live and get the hell out of this forum. Guess what? The title of this thread is "A5 Is it what you expected?". Perhaps this thread isn't for you? I don't understand the opposition to new features, you don't have to use them if you don't want to. In fact, if you don't like new features, perhaps software isn't for you? acid's primary job has always been loop and sample arrangement Cubase's primary job was MIDI, things change. VST plug-ins were originally just basic effects, things change. Some old versions of commercial virtual analogue VST instruments produced noticable aliasing, things change. Many soft synths orginally cost nearly as much as sequencer applications for something usable, things change. Prices change, hardware changes, features change, expectations change and over two years they can change considerably.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:11/3/2004 1:52:59 PM Game over...Ya I really hope so. It would mean this place will quiet down a whole lot. Funny thing is I have an odd feeling that when acid 6 comes out you'll be seeing the same faces STILL here whinning about something else. Man I thought for sure once I saw rewire slave in the beta that all of this argueing would be a thing of the past. I guess there are those that just like to troll...and troll...and troll...and never help other users out with their problems...and troll...and troll...sigh. I own sonar 3.11/acid 5...I have nothing to complain about. It works just like its supposed to. Just like what I suggested it to work like along time ago. Now I only wish to be able to do this with Vegas 5.0c or 6. Thats it. No fancy smancy anolgy here. We got a program that answered alot of users requests. Not all but obviously on the right track. I would like to be first to say goodbye to the users who won't be here in these forums soon. It's been fun reading some of your posts and I wish you all the best in the programs you'll be switching to soon to meet your needs. Ed.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Maruuk Date:11/3/2004 2:00:40 PM How are you going to make me get out of the forum, Droolout? By ignoring the simple fact that Acid has now been eclipsed by any number of apps which not only loop as well, but add tremendous utility with things like imbedded midi info and advanced loop organization? I can see why you'd be so upset you have to resort to bullying and hysterical attacks on fellow posters. Yes, it is upsetting to see a company with the resources of Sony drop the ball so terribly on what should have been a stellar release. But your puny mind has even missed my central point--users will keep on using relatively stable versions of Acid like 3.0 indefinitely for simple looping. I'm talking about Acid's viability in the marketplace. You can spew on all you want about other apps, but you haven't paid attention to the scores of posters in here who like the simplicity of Acid for alternate composing, yet require the simple addition of real audio and midi support which SF/Sony perversely refuses to give them. Acid remains a beatboy toy--very fun, and useful in many ways. But its utility for say, msongs with vocals and guitar recording and other acoustic tracking is so arbitrarily limited, Sony is going to kiss off a lot of potential customers in a superheated market. Even given that these same potentially loyal customers love a lot of what Acid brings in terms of speed and interface clarity. That's the kiss of death for the product. It's all great for macho bozos like yourself to try and hound everybody else off the board for not worshiping all things Acid. But the fact is, Sony has arbitrarily limited its market for this product, while its competitors have aggressively expanded their markets . That doesn't make Acid 5 a bad product, just a weak sister in the marketplace. They could have had it all, but they took their eye off the ball and kept Acid a boutique narrowcast product for a limited customer base, rather than the far broader market that even basic integrated audio and midi support would have brought them. Sure there is audio and midi, but after a while, non-beatboys who have to record actual songs end up going "you gotta be kidding me! Ain't this 2004???" So Sony made a choice to tease with a little midi, a little audio, a little more plug-in standardization. When was the last time you paid $299 and were satisfied with a tease?
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:11/3/2004 2:18:21 PM ???????????????????????????????????????????? So your point is dude? Who am I bullying? You've got a lot of people Not happy with the upgrade without even having a chance to use it. Well go use a app that makes you happy...Thats all I said...Thats my whole point. I've been betaing version 5 and can't see how anyone could pass up $149 for this upgrade. Try the demo and see if it suites your needs. I think it will. I love it IMHO. Again you can rewire slave to your favorite host...sonar/cubase/Vegas....oops sorry they haven't done that yet...etc. Apps have been developing their midi chops for years. If sony had pushed their R&D for audio/midi to compete the loop crowd would be pissed. Which by the way is acids bread and butter. Again did anyone miss the fact that rewire SLAVE support has been added to this release???? If you still don't get it then again I repectfully say goodbye to anyone who will be choosing a different path than mine. I'll see you around. Be well and godbless. Ed.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:11/3/2004 2:26:32 PM coldc, you misunderstand me completely. i'm not opposed to new features at all. new stuff is great. the question was " A5 is it what you expected?" my response was simply to say if it wasn't perhaps you should look at you own needs and not point the finger at acid. sony will continue to refine and add features but also try to keep the same GUI and fuctional simplicity. it's the direction of acid that some people dont get. all the folks that want more midi/mulitrack recording really want acid to be sonar. that is, basic loop functionality in a traditional cluttered audio/midi sequencer environment like cubase or logic. the acid GUI in all likelyhood WON'T CHANGE...especially now that we have rewire slave. there's no reason to totally rewrite the GUI by adding dedicated track slots (the only way to really allow mutitrack recording and get rid of the record box) and add a whole new MIDI sequencer section. members of the acid developement team have popped up over the years and expressed some of these ideas. try to understand what acid is and direction it's going. if that isn't what you want just use something else and rewire acid to that. if you can't except that, then don't just get out of this thread, GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS WHOLE FORUM. once AP5 is out perhaps we can have some positive dialogue and share tips, tricks, etc. instead of complaining about what probably never will be.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:11/3/2004 2:47:02 PM "When was the last time you paid $299 and were satisfied with a tease?" last time i went to Maruuk's momma's house. only it was more than a tease. LOL...that was for calling me droolout. acid 5 w/rewire slave is here. acid users have very little to moan about. if you're still moaning you probably need to just use something else and leave. i'm not really concerned about sony's market share or stock prices or crap like that. if sony goes down the tube and flushes acid, vegas, and soundforge with it, it wouldn't make much difference to me. i'll keep making music and will keep being happy at the level of power i have at my fingertips. i still run logic 5 from time to time, still have my trusty akai mpc2000, and even pull out my old atari st every so often. with all this upgrading at some point you have to stop and use what you have to actual make some music.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:11/3/2004 2:50:49 PM Coolout please delete that last post. If not then the whole thread will be deleted and thats not necessary. Ed.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: doctorfish Date:11/3/2004 4:22:31 PM To those beta testers, after reading the list of new features and going through this thread and seeing the complaints about lack of audio improvement, I was wondering about the audio engine in Acid 5. Is it noticeably any better or different? Has the time stretching or beat matching quality improved at all? That's one of the things I'd expect Sony to be working on for every new version. And it's one of the things I hope they do better than the competition. And I know it's dependent on a user's system, but how has stability been and cpu usage, especially when you have a lot of fx and/or a few vsti's running? Stability was a key point in the user wish list so if it's stable and the audio engine has improved then perhaps a good number of those who aren't otherwise satisfied now might nonetheless be after they've tried it. I was expecting more development in audio and midi but I think this release will still fit very well into my workflow, especially with rewire slave. Now if they can just add rewire host to Vegas. Hell, Acid got rewire host in a 4.x update, why not Vegas??!!! Dave
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MyST Date:11/3/2004 4:37:29 PM "Hell, Acid got rewire host in a 4.x update, why not Vegas??!!!" Go over to the Vegas forum and start a "150+ post" Rewire thread over there. Oops! Hope I didn't start something. :-) As far as improved audio... here's something from the features list, >> New! Improved audio timestretching and beat detection << It doesn't mention anything about improving the overall audio. Mario
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Spirit Date:11/3/2004 5:08:57 PM For all those who think this is such a great update, please have a think about this. Consider some of the recent (& looming) audio app releases: Ableton 4 FL Studio 5 Sonar 4 Now pop along to the relevant forums and have a read. You will find overwhelming happiness & appreciation of the update. There's nothing even remotely similar to the disappointment and disbelief by many people here. Other recent app releases = happy customers; Acid5 release = unhappy cutomers / heated debate. Now what does that suggest to you ? Perhaps, just maybe, this really is yet another dud release.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MyST Date:11/3/2004 5:15:03 PM Sorry, but some people are NOT happy with Sonar 4. Some are actually saying it's yet another cash grab attempt from Cakewalk. Don't believe me...have a read. http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/discussdetail.asp?TopicID=7328&offset=0&anchor=9 Mario
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: filterthing Date:11/3/2004 5:19:56 PM This thread has something like 81 posts and counting... how many of you have tried AP v5.0? Lets worry about our "expectations", after we have used this new program... I have used acid since it came out, and I will update it because it works for me. Everyone is going to stand up for his/her favorite program. I use pro tools TDM and LE for work and at home, and I love it. Pro tools cannot do anything like acid does, so I use acid as well. New software is something to get excitied about, not start flame wars...
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:11/3/2004 6:03:03 PM SHTUNOT, now you see why i needed reverse in acid. if i don't watch myself i can be a bit foul. the moderator(s) can feel free to edit or delete my post.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MacMoney Date:11/3/2004 6:50:05 PM Hi filterthing I've tested Acid 5 with Pro-Tools TDM Mix 6.4.1 and 002 Rack w/LE 6.7 and 6.4.1cs9 on my M-box. Its very easy, Open PT, set the tempo in PT transport. Create a stereo audio track. Insert Acid 5 as a stereo RTAS plugin that's it! Acid will open on its own, you open the session you want in Acid 5 and hit play on Acid or PT transport, they are locked together. You can add TDM or RTAS plugins on the same track after Acid 5. In Acid 5 you can add more audio out to PT i.e Track 1=Drums (stereo) Track 2= Keys (stereo) Track 3=Synths (stereo) Track 4=Bass (mono) Track 5=Guitars (mono) If you have any other questions please feel free to contact me. George Ware
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: dabb Date:11/3/2004 7:16:22 PM Right on! and it did'nt take 2 and a half years to release an update. FLStudio is also a free update. dabb
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: filterthing Date:11/3/2004 9:17:40 PM Hey, thanks george... I will be looking forward to trying it out when I get it... very cool.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coldc Date:11/3/2004 11:34:02 PM coolout, all the folks that want more midi/mulitrack recording really want acid to be sonar Incorrect, in fact it is quite obvious they don't otherwise they would just buy/use Sonar. there's no reason to totally rewrite the GUI by adding dedicated track slots (the only way to really allow mutitrack recording and get rid of the record box) Incorrect x3. I did not request a rewrite of the GUI. I did not request dedicated track slots. Dedicated track slots are not even the only way to provide multi-track recording. just use something else and rewire acid to that. Yes thank you for your advice, one of my first posts on this forum was to request ReWire Slave mode a few years ago... if you can't except that, then don't just get out of this thread, GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS WHOLE FORUM. Please go and look up the word "forum" in a dictionary. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum If you can't accept the purpose of a "forum" then perhaps you should consider whether or not forums are for you? i'm also a composer and producer. my first production credit was 10-years ago... ... trust that i am a professional, so professional ... Then I hope you recognise that the above is an attempt to point out the absurdity of such puerile statements as "get the hell out of this forum" that you have repeated.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: dbOS://00 Date:11/3/2004 11:51:02 PM as long as all of the new features work, and at least a few of the bugs worked out, I'll be happy. on a different note, this has been one of the most enjoyable threads to read, if only because the next instalment of ACID is in sight, its almost in the rest of our hands, and yet nothing has changed... I look forward to testing this ACID's new features. I hope they are as interesting as the reature list would suggest. I'll admit it, it would bave been nice to see more dramatic changes, but oh well...
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Cquence777 Date:11/4/2004 2:09:11 AM Bravo ColdC.....Bravo! ;)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Cquence777 Date:11/4/2004 2:23:33 AM Well, maybe I'm all messed up in my perception......but to me, this sounds like an Acid 4.0 "g update" rather than a whole new "version" of the app. If (and I say "if") stability has been resolved, added a few new tidbit tweaks (like reverse for example....which is also in Music Studio 5.0 by the way), then maybe not a "g" update.....but rather an "h" or "i" update had we continued to get support for 4.0.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: billybk Date:11/4/2004 5:43:53 AM ACID Pro 5 is a point upgrade, with many NEW features and enhancements. it is NOT a maintance update! You don't pay for lettered (a,b,c,d) maintance updates, point upgrades require an upgrade fee. I am thankful that Sony acquired the Sonic Foundry software line and put the necessary resources into further developing them. The alternative, considering SOFO's dire financial health at the time (bankruptcy), might have been ACID just being left high and dry and maybe even discontinued. As a SONAR user, I can say there are some lingering issues to be resolved there too. Just check out the forums of most any audio host app and you can find people complaining about upgrade prices, bugs or supposed lack of new features. I happen to see this post regarding some of Steiny's problems with Nuendo 3, which has not even been released yet. Users complaining about upgrade prices ($300.00-600.00) and bugs that are still in Nuendo 2 and now it seems Nuendo 3 is flawed even before it is released. Needless to say, a lot of unhappy campers, for a supposed premium ($1999.00) audio app. We should count ourselves lucky. I know I am. Nuendo is telling people if they don't want to upgrade, they can turn in their dongle and receive a copy of Cubase SX. They're telling them to DOWNGRADE! And reading all the ranting about the trim laws not being fixed... blah... blah... Just goes to show the grass is not always greener on the other side. Check this thread, especially the 4th page: http://forum.nuendo.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/022824.html I get a kick out of some people who can eagerly complain about and even gleefully slam an app's (ACID Pro 5) stability, features, bugs, prices before it is even released and before they have had an opportunity to even try it out for themselves. Hey, if ACID Pro 5 is not enough or maybe too much $, for you, maybe you can "downgrade" to ACID 5 Music Studio. Oh, and can we have a nice shiny "dongle" to go with that downgrade :)
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:11/4/2004 6:08:32 AM > ...but to me, this sounds like an Acid 4.0 "g update" rather than a whole new "version" of the app This is taken from my post in this thread so excuse be for repeating it here but I believe is makes the point. Let me see if I’ve got this straight. You want all these features: Over 1,000 music loops in multiple genres Media Manager technology Metronome for playback and record Customizable UI and keyboard mapping Flash™ (.swf ) file format import Enhanced media previewing Save project paths in rendered media Nestable folder tracks for enhanced project organization Real-time event reverse Bus-to-bus routing Downmix monitoring Improved audio timestretching and beat detection Drop one-shots in real time Customizable project media folders Envelope changes applied to multiple selected events Groove Mapping quantization tools with Groove Cloning ReWire support (mixer and device) VST effects support with automation and tempo sync Multiport VSTi soft synth support MIDI Piano Roll snap-to-scale filtering Tempo-based DirectX effects Audio Plug-In Manager Bypass all effects command Integrated disc-at-once CD burning For FREE in a maintenance release? I don’t think so. Would you be kind enough to start a software company because I will buy all of your products once and simply download the maintenance releases to get new functions. I don’t understand how that business model works, but it seems to make sense to you. I realize that perhaps the function YOU wanted didn’t make it into this release and so you feel the release is not worth the upgrade. That doesn’t make it not worth it for all of us who did get some of our wish list functions implemented. I’m still using SONAR 2.2 so I know where you’re coming from. I might update to SONAR 4 but I might not. Lots of people skip a release when upgrading. This one looks like its yours to skip and that’s OK. The fact is, this is not a maintenance release, ~jr
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coolout Date:11/4/2004 6:55:10 AM coldc, here i was trying not to pick a fight with maruuk and ended getting into it with you. i'm sorry for my harsh words. My request to "get the hell out of this forum" was just to punctuate: 1.) some people refuse to acknowledge that the addition of a new sequencer module and multitrack recording would change the acid GUI. (something the development team seems reluctant to do) and 2.) with rewire slave, acid is no longer a closed system and can intergrate with programs that have spent years developing complex midi and audio recording capabilities. how else can you have multitrack recording without dedicated tracks and getting rid of the record box. would you rather the record box popup with 8 different inputs and then you have to make 8 file names just for one pass? if you made another pass you'd have to do the naming all over again because acid is audio file based. NO, then you would need to have multiple audio files share the same track...a la...a DEDICATED TRACKS. same thing with the midi sequencer. how would you squeeze all the midi functions of cubase on the average acid screen. only by adding more menus and pages and perhaps once again....dedicated tracks. i think there no need to add a traditional mixer page or HUI support or live input monitoring nowadays (things that i wanted in acid 5 but didn't get) because i can just run acid as a plugin inside of cubase, logic 5, sonar, live, orion, adobe audition, or protools. surely if multitrack recording is that big of a deal to you, if you're already recording bands or choirs all the time, or you're doing intense midi sequencing, you own at least one of these apps. thats my point. many people have voiced ideas to the discussion. i believe that given the current features and direction of acid, the logic in moaning about multitrack recording and a more complex midi sequencer is fundamentally flawed. i think the development team would agree. i think that anyone continuing to beat this "dead horse" should just leave unless they have something new to add. it's just my opinion...as simple as that. trust me, pros have to say get the hell out every now and then. i guess you'd have to know my personality. when i say, "get the hell out of my dj booth." or "get the hell out of my face." i say it nicely with a smile or smirk. it's just my way of saying "hey, i'm becoming a little bit sick of you right now and it would be better for everyone if you'd leave". see how just saying "man, get the hell out of here", while slighty laughing, rolls off the tongue so much easier. i know typed out it can sound harsh and dramatic, but i just wanted to drive my point home. i didn't mean to offend anyone.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: doctorfish Date:11/4/2004 4:01:49 PM Mario, Yes, I had read the list of improvements and seen that Sony claims: >> New! Improved audio timestretching and beat detection << I even mentioned that in my post wondering wheather or not the "time stretching or beat matching (maybe I should have said beat detection) had improved or not". Those who have beta tested seem satisfied, at least to a degree, about this upgrade, so I was hoping to hear from them what they thought about Sony's claim to have improved in this area. Given the lack of recording and midi improvements, this is an important thing for me in additon to the rewire slave support. Still hoping to hear from the beta testers. Dave
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: SonyEPM Date:11/4/2004 5:50:31 PM All beta testers are advised to carefully re-read the NDA that they themselves signed before they say too much more... ...until Monday next.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: coldc Date:11/5/2004 3:39:02 AM coolout, Fair enough. This is only an example of possible implementation, because you asked how it could be done. This is not a feature request as I have not yet tried ACID 5 so I don't know how well the ReWire and importing of audio works. some people refuse to acknowledge that the addition of a new sequencer module and multitrack recording would change the acid GUI I don't know what you mean by new sequencer module, and making a change to the ACID GUI is very different to a GUI rewrite which you previously stated. how else can you have multitrack recording without dedicated tracks Firstly, you previously said "dedicated track slots" (which implied a fixed number of empty tracks like the early sequencer applications.) Secondly, (I think others have mentioned all of this before) there are already three (3) different audio track types, (Loop, one-shot, beatmapped) and each is dedicated to a different purpose. It would not take a great stretch of the imagination to add another track type, just lots of implementation and testing etc. For the sake of this example, call the new track type "Multi part track". would you rather the record box popup with 8 different inputs and then you have to make 8 file names just for one pass? No. extra_dialog_boxes_in_the_middle_of_a_creative_process == poor_HCI I would hope that most developers would realise this. Just steal the best implementation ideas from other sequencers and streamline them even further where possible. So, get rid of the record dialog and move the options "record folder" , "Record device" (change it to "Default record device") and "Attributes (16bit/44.1 etc.)" to the project properties audio tab (right-click in the track list and click Project Audio Properties...). Now, each of these audio tracks already has an output bus selection button (the square with a square dot in it) in the track list. Simply add another button to each track (possibly a square with an arrow pointing to the centre.) Clicking on this button would produce a list of input device options and a dot next to the selected one and another option "disable/enable" at the top of the list (the text changes depending on if the track is record enabled). Also, if the input is record enabled, the button could change to a square with a red arrow pointing to the centre. This way, all input options could be handled by one button and it would not ruin the interface. How should one of these tracks be created? Either right-click the track list and select "insert audio track >> Multi part track", OR the same option from the Insert menu. An empty audio track (type multi-part track) could be created with a default name say "new audio track 1", anything that is recorded here should go the the default audio folder for this project. Now pressing record when track(s) are record enabled could create a new part from where the project cursor is to where ever the user presses stop or where it reaches the loop point when in loop mode. The audio file for this part could be called ""new audio track 1(1)" or whatever the user renamed the track to. Then instead of double-clicking on the track the user would double-click on the part to bring up the audio properties etc. Would there need to be an audio pool like other apps? No, because there is already a media manager which should know the files in use for the project. So all this is acheived by adding one button to each track, and it gets rid of the record dialog box. (The same principles could be applied to MIDI tracks. Also, if MIDI files were embedded, this would also remove the need for file naming.) Another alternative implementation might be to not bother with the record enabled/disabled status, and just select multiple tracks (like when the user adjusts the volume of multiple tracks simultaneously) then simply click record. The only disadvantage of the new track type is simply that "painting" and "drawing" more data to the track would require choosing which part you are trying to add more of. One possible solution is to just add more of whichever part was most recently selected on that track. If the user wanted to add more of a different part, they could first select any part, then start to paint on a different area of the track using all the normal features. All the complexity would be in implementation, developement and testing and none for the user as they don't have to use the new track type at all. surely if multitrack recording is that big of a deal to you, if you're already recording bands or choirs all the time, or you're doing intense midi sequencing, you own at least one of these apps. Yes I already have a number of multi-track capable applications (SX3, energyXT etc.) and they are great at many tasks, but- 1) My preferred environment for quickly "painting" with sections of audio is within ACID itself, not just "ReWired to ACID". 2) Obviously the applications can now be ReWired directly together, but the audio would then need to be re-imported to ACID to take advantage of the easy audio manipulation which may not be practical if many parts need to be recorded and re-imported. 3) At some point, if you are recording files in SX3 and re-importing to ACID for manipulation, both applications will open the same audio file simulateneously and one application may want to perform a write operation on it. Therefore, even though ACID 5 is now DAW friendly there may still be a need/desire for a completely integrated solution. However, as I said at the start of this post I haven't tried the ACID 5 demo yet (and am yet to see if it adds anything to my current way of working) and all the above was just an example. It is possible all the ACID 5 features combined will be enticing enough at a bargain price even without certain features. should just leave unless they have something new to add. I don't know if anything I posted is new to you, but I posted it anyway as you requested. and a more complex midi sequencer is fundamentally flawed More features does not mean more complex, I have yet to try the MIDI in ACID 5, but many people trying to use ACID as an all in one solution (with the many available VST instruments) would disagree with you. I hope I don't need to outline all the possible MIDI improvements. Sorry for the long reply. Hope it made sense.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:11/5/2004 8:29:04 AM > So, get rid of the record dialog and move the options "record folder" , "Record device" (change it to "Default record device") and "Attributes (16bit/44.1 etc.)" to the project properties audio tab (right-click in the track list and click Project Audio Properties...). All you have to do is allow ACID to record INTO an existing track. That would make life much easier. Insert a new MIDI track, highlight it, press record, guess what type of track I want to record? If you said MIDI, you are right! ;-) This is the very first thing I did the first time I used ACID. I inserted a MIDI track, pressed record, and was shocked when it record into yet another new MIDI track? It was so counter intuitive to me. Why in the world would you let me insert a track if you’re not going to use it? Later I found out that you could enter the MIDI notes by hand in the MIDI editor so that’s why you can add a blank MIDI track. Again, how counter intuitive. If I want to enter the MIDI notes I insert a track but if I want to play the MIDI notes I do something completely different. With a little streamlining of the ACID HUI, these new features can seem very natural and fit within the ACID paradigm. ~jr
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rednroll Date:11/5/2004 9:22:47 AM Sorry Coldc I couldn't read that lengthy reply before I started to wander....I know I'm guilty of doing the same on some of my posts. But to summarize probably what most are saying for recording it doesn't take too much immagination, because the UI of Acid is very similar to Vegas. In my opinion the Vegas functionality of recording and UI is the correct choice of how to do things. Even if Acid isn't a DAW and only allowed you to record one track at a time, then the Vegas UI is still the way to do things. You create a track be it midi or audio and enable record on that track and away you go. If you don't like the record then go back to the beginning and record over the previous record on that same track. The only reason why I personally see that Acid doesn't do it this way, is because if you make it look even more closer to the Vegas UI, then people will inturn expect you to be able to record more than one track at a time like Vegas. I mean I already expect it, since it already looks like Vegas in the track view, it's just missing the functionality of Vegas.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: DKeenum Date:11/5/2004 9:25:53 AM I'll admit that this does sound good to me.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:11/5/2004 11:37:25 AM > You create a track be it midi or audio and enable record on that track and away you go. If you don't like the record then go back to the beginning and record over the previous record on that same track. Amen. This is how I expected ACID to work when I first used it. It makes perfect sense to me. I hope Sony can fit this into a future version of ACID. ~jr
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Maruuk Date:11/5/2004 4:54:58 PM That's correct. These are freebie chickenspit beatboy features worthy of a letter, not a number. The number 5 deserved long-overdue serious audio and midi support. Sony better look in the rearview mirror, cuz all their real competitors passed em long ago.and there ain't nuthin back there but N-Track and Traktion. And they're gaining.
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rockitglider Date:11/6/2004 8:41:55 PM Quote: Again you can rewire slave to your favorite host...sonar/cubase/Vegas....oops sorry they haven't done that yet. Was this a hint that Vegas will get Rewire, If this is going to happen it would be the greatest thing Sony could do for these two aps to work together. Man I would start using Vegas again! :) See ya, Rockitglider
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: MyST Date:11/6/2004 9:24:08 PM Well holy sh*t! Look who's back! Been awhile... you get lost or somethin'? :-) Good to see ya back here Rockit! Mario
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rockitglider Date:11/7/2004 11:17:25 AM Hello Mario, and everyone else, I had to take a break from music for a while as I had to take care of my Daughter full time, and now that She's 14, She doedn't need me much anymore :(. But the bright side is I have more time for music, and Acid 5 is looking really good, I'm looking forward to Monday! Did I just say I'm looking forward to Monday?, oh well.... This is really a good month for music as there is alot of different upgrades comming for this and other softwares, Like FL Studio 5. Now with Rewire support in Acid, there's no stoppin us now, I think this release is the Bomb! I just hope it's fairly stable. I looked over the feature list, and I'm impressed with alot of the items, and sure there could always be more, but I think this is a good start in the right direction. See ya, Rockitglider
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Iacobus Date:11/7/2004 11:37:06 AM Welcome back, Rockit! I wouldn't be surprised if ReWire appeared in the next version of Vegas. However, how would this work? Vegas doesn't exactly let you change tempo per se, being a "what you hear is what you get" digital audio multitracker. (Unless Sony retools this aspect of Vegas?) It's true that Vegas accepts and utilitizes ACIDized loops, but it's not like you can change the tempo of an added loop so easily. If I remember correctly, whatever the Vegas project's tempo is set at (which is really a reference) will determine the loop's tempo when it's added to the project. In order to change the tempo of the loop, you have to delete it, change the tempo of the project and then re-add the loop. Adding to that, Vegas doesn't have tempo change markers (for the reasons above). Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: A5 Is it what you expected? Reply by: Rockitglider Date:11/7/2004 1:32:36 PM Hello mD, Good to see ya again, I was mostly thinking about recording, as this is what I like Vegas for the most. I like the way it handles takes. I also have always perfered the layout of Vegas over any other app for multitracking, it's very clean and easy on the eyes and the brain. But I think it wouldn't be that hard to impliment Acid style timing into Vegas, but then again I'm not a programer so I'm just asuming this. I know the first thing I'm going to link with Acid is Sonar and FL Studio, this is going to be a great combo. Then again, Acid might be able to do my recording fairly well with a metronome added in. See ya, Rockitglider

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