Subject:Problem with saving .wav files

Posted by: chrishooper

Date:8/25/2004 6:06:02 PM

I have a certain problem with my Sound Forge 6.0 .
I just found this support thread and feel that I've came to the right place after reading other questions. You guys seem to know everything about these products.
My question may not sound correct or might even be taken out of it's context, I just hope that someone understands what my problem is.
Okay, my question is basically not a problem I'm having saving per say, but a problem with the frequency I wish to save at. I have Windows Media Encoder 9.0 which allows me to save .wma files at a bit stream rate of 20Kbps and 44.1Khz.
You know how CD's are basically 16 bit, 128Kbps, 44.1 Khz?
Like that. I don't know the technical bit rate terms. Anyway,
for the .wma it's 16 bit, 20Kbps, 44.1 Khz.
Now, what I want to do is save an audio file using my SF 6.0 as a .wav file customized to the mp3 submenu, at around that frequency. The frequency list that they have for mp3 .wav's are very limited. The best one that I've found for the use I need is 24Kbps-24Khz.
See, I'm wanting to use these .wav's for streaming audio music for people that have Diial-Up internet, but I want the songs to sound as good as possible. The html coding that I use works best with .wav files because of it being unaffected to internet fluctuations.
.WMA files are affected by these fluctuations however, having to rebuffer everytime there's a drop in the internet stream. What I need is to be able to save .wav's at a frequency of 44.1Khz. Whether it be 20Kbps or 24Kbps, I NEED the higher frequency. The songs sound too muffled at 22.1Khz and 24Khz. Unfortunately, the Windows Media Encoder's end result of saved files are superior to SF 6.0's, and it's FREE! I just wish it gave the option to save as .wav files as well as .wma.
Does anyone know of a way to save an mp3 .wav file at a low Kbps rate (around 20Kbps to 24Kbps), mono sample or song, while keeping the frequency at 44.1 Khz?, or are we just stuck with Sonic Forge's small list of Save As' frequencies and bit rates?.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/25/2004 6:19:51 PM

Well, to begin with, there is no such thing as a .mp3 .wav file. .Wav files are uncompressed and .mp3 files are compressed. They're not interchangable. The reason that .mp3 and .wma files are so small is because they are compressed. If you use a bitrate of 24Kbps for .mp3 and .wma then almost all dialup users should be able to stream them with no problem. In order to get a .wav file down to 24Kbps you'd have to make it mono, 8 bit, 3KHz, and that would sound awful indeed, much worse than a telephone! Any listeners who are having problems with a 24Kbps .mp3 file have absolutely horrid internet connections and you may have to not worry about them.

As an alternative, for people with such bad connections you may want to offer a download link in addition to streaming. That way they could take as long as necessary to download the entire file first, then listen to it from their hard drive afterwards.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/25/2004 7:45:46 PM

That was a quick reply but TOTALLY misunderstood. When I say MP3 .wav, I'm referring to the customiizable save state. NOT one and the same. You can customize your .wav files by clicking on the custom button. From in there you have different types of customizations for .wav files such as CCITT A-Law, CCITT u-Law, DSP Group TrueSpeech(TM), GSM 6.10, IEEE Float, IMA ADPCM, LAME MP3, Microsoft ADPCM, MPEG Layer-3, Ogg Vorbis (modes 1, 1+, 2, 2+, 3, 3+), etc.. And yes, you can compress .wav files.
Here's a link to a song I've compressed using Sound Forge 6.0 .wav compression...
Fear This
This is compressed to a bit rate of 24Kbps, 16 bit, 24Khz resulting in a song which is 4 minutes 25 seconds long, and only 775k.
That's about 2.5k per second.
Here's a link to another .wav file I compressed using DSP Group TrueSpeech.
Shattermask Commericial for XM Radio
This a 50 second sound clip for only 52k. That's only around 1k per second. And it sounds really decent for that kind of compression.
I just need an answer from someone who knows Sound Forge inside and out or at least well enough to answer my question about customizable frequency saving. I want to be able to save at 20Kbps to 24Kbps, mono, 16 bit, and for sure 44.1KHz, using .wav compression in MP3 style.
ANY help would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: jorgensen

Date:8/25/2004 11:10:41 PM

wav is always in the PCM format, and not compressed in any way.

You can decide to save in another format, that use lossless or perceptive compression. the later is most used and include mp3, ogg, wma etc.

So you normally have the master file in wav format, and the streaming in e.g. mp3.

If you want to compress as much as you state, you should lower the sampling rate.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/26/2004 1:53:20 AM

The format of saving in which I am saving would be perceptive compression, if that's what you call it, even though it's not compressed. Perceptive compression.... no compression in any way. Hmmm.... Sounds compressed to me. To me, compression is taking a file of a certain size and reducing the amount of Data size. For instance, a song that was in MP3 format at 5.2 MB's is now 522KB's and is now in .wav format. Anyway, I'm not trying to compress. I have NO problem with that. Please read carefully the former messages before this message before answering a question that wasn't asked. All I want is to be able to save at a higher frequency than what Sound Forge has defaulted in their save lists. Is that possiblle? Or do they perhaps have any extra plugins that I might need?.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/26/2004 4:15:57 AM

One thing that you do need to understand is that if you want to reduce the file size while maintaining the sample rate, you must compress. There is no way around this. So for what you want to achieve, you are compressing the file. As i mentioned before, the only way to get the file size you want without compression is to reduce the file to 8 bit mono 3KHz. Compression allows you to retain a higher frequency and bit depth at a smaller file size. However, the only good way to get a file as small as you want it to be is to reduce the frequency. Any compression that great that doesn't reduce the frequency will be trying to compress too much data and you'll end up with more artifacts and distortion.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/26/2004 7:07:18 AM

Thank You for taking the time to respond again Chienworks and I see you're understanding my problem a bit better. I just want to be able to keep the frequency at 44.1KHz like you can on Windows Media Encoder 9.0.
I've found that at 44.1KHz, even at 20Kbps, it sounds SO much better than at a lower frequency. I know this through experience of converting files to .wma using Windows Media Encoder 9.0 . I've actually had no increase of more artifacts or distortion, but better performance due to a clearer crisper sound. I'll post a song later when I upload one, so you can hear what I mean.
A .wma file at 20Kbps-44.1Khz actually sounds twice better than a .wav file at a higher bit rate of 24Kbps-24Khz due to the lower frequency at 24Khz.
I just want to be able to save at that frequency on Sound Forge 6.0, but there isn't that range in their save attributes.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: Sonic

Date:8/26/2004 8:21:46 AM

The acm mp3 encoder (the one inside .wav) is very limited. You'd be much better off saving explicitly to the mp3 file format. It won't take long to find the right template or settings there.

.wav is most typically used for uncompressed PCM (or floating point) data. There's no restriction that it must be, but most compatible ACM codecs are designed for specific tasks and not for general usage (e.g. the acm mp3 codec).

J.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: jorgensen

Date:8/26/2004 10:45:31 AM

I think you have got screwed up in some way.

Rip a good quality track from a cd, save it as a 16-bit 44.1 kHz wav file – and to another file in the format 16-bit 22 kHz wav file. Then try to compare the two formats, and I doubt you will hear a significant difference.
Basically the 22 kHz sampling frequency cuts the frequency at 10 kHz, and you could boost the sound at 8kHz to compensate for this.

You can also try other settings like 11 kHz with uncompressed settings, but if you are for a decent quality I would use 22 kHz as sampling rate, and then an acceptable MP3-VBR setting (25%).
I have found the Sonic (sorry sony) MP3 codec one of the best – if not the best.

For all tests, it is important you always use the 16-bit 44.1 kHz uncompressed file as the master – otherwise you get screwed up.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: jorgensen

Date:8/26/2004 10:47:27 AM

>> .wav is most typically used for uncompressed PCM (or floating point) data. <<

That is new to me.

Can you save the floating point format to a wav file, and is it compatible to other wav codec drivers?

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/26/2004 2:31:15 PM

Subject: RE: Problem with saving .wav files
Posted by: Sonic (Ignore This User)
Date: 8/26/2004 8:21:47 AM

The acm mp3 encoder (the one inside .wav) is very limited. You'd be much better off saving explicitly to the mp3 file format. It won't take long to find the right template or settings there.

.wav is most typically used for uncompressed PCM (or floating point) data. There's no restriction that it must be, but most compatible ACM codecs are designed for specific tasks and not for general usage (e.g. the acm mp3 codec).

J.



This answer seems to be the most logical, most understood one so far. My problem though is that even saving in MP3 format, the template that I need, (16 bit mono, (20Kbps to 24Kbps, at 44.1Khz)), isn't there.
Plus, I need it saved in .wav format for the type of audio streaming my coding requires. I know it may sound weird.... streaming .wav audio instead of .wma.....
So, I guess my question to you Sonic J. is, do you know any way of being able to alter, customize, or maybe even add extra templates to the Save's of custom .wav's, maybe through some Sonic Forge 6.0 update, plugin download, or even in the program itself, or are we just stuck with Sonic Forge's very limited Save templates due to its codecs or whatever it is that would limit it?.
If it is that limited, does anyone know of another program that would allow me to save in the parameters that I need?.
Parameters are, 16 bit mono, anywhere between 20Kbps to 24Kbps, definately 44.1Khz, and has to be saved in .wav format.
Good luck on anyone coming up with that answer....

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/26/2004 7:24:25 PM

Subject: RE: Problem with saving .wav files
Posted by: Chienworks (Ignore This User)
Date: 8/26/2004 4:15:58 AM

One thing that you do need to understand is that if you want to reduce the file size while maintaining the sample rate, you must compress. There is no way around this. So for what you want to achieve, you are compressing the file. As i mentioned before, the only way to get the file size you want without compression is to reduce the file to 8 bit mono 3KHz. Compression allows you to retain a higher frequency and bit depth at a smaller file size. However, the only good way to get a file as small as you want it to be is to reduce the frequency. Any compression that great that doesn't reduce the frequency will be trying to compress too much data and you'll end up with more artifacts and distortion.


Subject: RE: Problem with saving .wav files
Posted by: chrishooper (Ignore This User)
Date: 8/26/2004 7:07:18 AM

Thank You for taking the time to respond again Chienworks and I see you're understanding my problem a bit better. I just want to be able to keep the frequency at 44.1KHz like you can on Windows Media Encoder 9.0.
I've found that at 44.1KHz, even at 20Kbps, it sounds SO much better than at a lower frequency. I know this through experience of converting files to .wma using Windows Media Encoder 9.0 . I've actually had no increase of more artifacts or distortion, but better performance due to a clearer crisper sound. I'll post a song later when I upload one, so you can hear what I mean.
A .wma file at 20Kbps-44.1Khz actually sounds twice better than a .wav file at a higher bit rate of 24Kbps-24Khz due to the lower frequency at 24Khz.
I just want to be able to save at that frequency on Sound Forge 6.0, but there isn't that range in their save attributes.




Okay Chienworks. I've uploaded 2 versions of the same song. One at 24Kbps-24Khz using Sound Forge 6.0, and the other is done at only 20Kbps-44.1Khz using Windows Media Encoder 9.0.
The Windows Media Encoder 9.0 .wma file extension was renamed to a .wav at an attempt to prevent buffering in my early experiments, so keep in mind that the Windows Media Encoder 9.0 song is really a .wma file. I just renamed it to changed the file extension. Usually renaming a file extension unstablizes the file rendering it useless, but in this case it didn't.
Now, I want you to listen to both versions of the same song and tell me in your honest opinion which sounds better. Keep in mind that these are very low quality songs, the Sound Forge could be streamed on a 33.6 modem and the Windows Media Encoder 9.0 file on a 28.8 modem.
Okay, here they are:
Sound Forge 6.0 File
Windows Media Encoder 9.0 File
See how much clearer and crisper the Windows Media Encoder 9.0 file sounds compared to the duller muffled sounding file of the Sound Forge 6.0?
It's not because Windows is a better encoder, it's because of the frequency. Even with the bit rate being lower than on Sound Forge's, it still sounds better because of the frequency. I ran tests on the Windows Media Encoder 9.0 and found that at lower frequencies, it sounds the same as Sound Forge's song sample that I linked up here. I encoded this same song in an earlier test using Windows Media Encoder 9.0 with the attributes at 24Kbps-24Khz and it sounds just like the Sound Forge 6.0's version. That's why I know it has to do with the frequency.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: farss

Date:8/27/2004 6:52:41 AM

Sorry to butt in, this stuff is much more complicated than I realised. I'd always assumed .wav was PVM only, you live and learn.
To answer someone elses question, you can encode out of SF at some hideously high sample rates like 192 KHz with FP bit depth. My sound card had a dummy spit over me asking it to play that!

But back to your problem, I know the templates don't directly support what you want but can't you create a new template that does what you want?

I've done that a fair bit with .mp3 templates in Vegas, I assume SF is the same.

Bob.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: Sonic

Date:8/27/2004 7:42:09 AM

Sound Forge will let you save to 32-bit floats in a .wav (wFormatTag = WAVE_FORMAT_IEEE_FLOAT). 64-bit float is also a valid format, but is usually extreme overkill for audio and not exposed to the user.

Sound Forge uses both flavors internally for temporary files, frg data files, etc. depending on the source bit-depth if you enable the "Use floating point temporary files" preference.

I doubt it is widely supported outside of the DAW crowd, but I haven't really looked. With a limited audio range of +/- 1.0 and a 24-bit mantissa, precision is only slightly different from 24-bit PCM, and is debatable if not negligible, so it isn't really worth the wasted storage space as a destination format.

J.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: Sonic

Date:8/27/2004 8:04:16 AM

44.1kHz, 16-bit is simply to high for the bandwidth you want with that encoder. You may want to try VBR or evaluate whether third party encoders like LAME can do this (doubtful). Your best bet is to raise your bandwidth requirements or resample to 22.050 kHz. A quick test with spectrum analysis shows me that the wma setting you mention whacks all the high frequency stuff anyway, they're just more subtle about it.

As for the .wav/acm business, we have no control over the capabilities of the acm codec. I don't understand why you feel you are limited to an acm-compressed .wav, but if that is truly the case, you'll have to make do or find a third-party acm mp3 codec.

J.

Addendum: I just listened to your files, but I'm having a hard time reproducing the results in WME9. Provide steps if you wish. It's irrelevant if we're talking mp3 anyway.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/27/2004 8:19:11 AM

Nah. Sorry Bob. It lets you create a name for a template in which you've set your attributes to, but you're still limited to the attributes that they have in their templates. I've messed with it for hours and it doesn't let you customize the attributes. I wish it did.
But yes, that IS what I'd want to it do. Let me be able to create a template that does what I want.
I guess the program was designed more for professional recordings and less to very little for compression.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/27/2004 8:29:41 AM

44.1kHz, 16-bit is simply to high for the bandwidth you want with that encoder. You may want to try VBR or evaluate whether third party encoders like LAME can do this (doubtful). Your best bet is to raise your bandwidth requirements or resample to 22.050 kHz. A quick test with spectrum analysis shows me that the wma setting you mention whacks all the high frequency stuff anyway, they're just more subtle about it.

As for the .wav/acm business, we have no control over the capabilities of the acm codec. I don't understand why you feel you are limited to an acm-compressed .wav, but if that is truly the case, you'll have to make do or find a third-party acm mp3 codec.

J.



I like your style J.
You talk good talk.
I'm limited due to my restrictions of Dial-Up internet. I do some coding and what have ya for a band's website and they're needing Dial-Up streaming audio.
But the music's still gotta sound pretty decent.
Did ya listen to my two examples I have linked from an earlier message?
You can tell a big difference in the two, and it's because of the sampling frequency. I know what ya mean by spectrum analysis but my ears says a whole different thing.
Give the links a listening to. Don't pay attention to the genre. I'm not a religious nut, (no offense to religious nuts), I just grabbed and used the song for a quick example.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: Sonic

Date:8/27/2004 8:34:52 AM

You read my last message before I added...

Addendum: I just listened to your files, but I'm having a hard time reproducing the results in WME9. Provide steps if you wish. It's irrelevant if we're talking mp3 anyway.

J.

Subject:RE: Problem with saving .wav files

Reply by: chrishooper

Date:8/27/2004 4:23:16 PM

Okay J.
I'll put it in quick terms.
Basically, I just click on Covert a file through the Wizards panel.
Choose my Source file and hit next.
Then in the Content Distribution panel I click on File archive. I would normally click on Web server if it were a .wav file but I have different reasons for this choice. Click next.
On Audio, choose FM quality audio (CBR) and click Finish.
Now that the main panel is up, click on properties.
In the Session Properties panel click on the compression tab.
When in the compression menu click on the Edit... button.
You will now be in a Custom Encoding Settings panel. Click on the tab next to the General tab. It will have a numerical Kbps on it. For example, 54 Kbps.
From there, click on the drop down menu which is named Audio format.
Hightlight and choose 20Kbps, 44Khz mono CBR and click on OK.
Make sure to click on the Apply button down at the bottom right of the Session Properties panel, click on Start Encoding, and that's it!
The end result will be 16 bit mono, 20Kbps, 44.1Khz and sound pretty decent for something that can be streamed on a 28.8 modem.
What's your opinion on the song I've linked using the WME9? Sounds pretty good I think for it being such a low quality bit rate. Doesn't sound as good if it's played through equalization though. I tried it in my Windows Media Player directly off of the hard drive with my equalization on, and the treble frequencies of the player make songs too sharp, metalic, and more noticable to the fact of it only being 20Kbps.
That's okay though 'cause the html coding I use on the website only allows for a basic Media Player with no equalization and the volume to start at 50% and most people use the basic speakers that came with their computers. It seems to sound pretty good on plain 'ole basic speakers. Speakers with bass and treble knobs are fine as long as the treble isn't turned up it seems.