Am I the only one... -ACID Product Family - MAGIX Community Forums Archive

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Subject:Am I the only one... Posted by: groovewerx Date:8/8/2004 4:03:44 PM Or do you find difficulty in creating inspiration on demand? I've been writing grooves for clients for over a decade and in retrospect, almost all of the vocalists wanted to feel a groove so they could be inspired to write and sing. For years I've wondered why it has been so difficult for me to pull a new groove out of my ass so someone else could be inspired. What is to inspire the groove? For me it takes longer to for me to complete a song that way because of the trial and error involved in inspiring the artist and the rework that has to be done to the groove once the singer has done their part. Is it too much to ask that a writer/singer have material they want to work on already written well enough to fit a groove from my library, then we both tailor the parts? Or am I supposed to write an ad for a product unknown to me? Occasionally I'll get a client that is ready for me, but they are rare. What can I do to increase the ratio?
Subject:RE: Am I the only one... Reply by: MyST Date:8/8/2004 4:20:45 PM I can definitely understand your point, really! OK, so I'm just a hobbyist, where's the similarity you ask? For me it's a matter of having spare time once in awhile to "play" with this software. I absolutely LOVE using Acid and Vegas. However, I'm supposed to be able to create something when and only when I have spare time to use this software. That amounts to about 1 to 2 hours tops each time. Why do you think I have lots of unfinished projects? I get something going and then I have to stop. Next time I'm able to work with Acid, I'm not neccessarily in the mood to continue working on that type of project. Maybe I'm more in a Jazz "state of mind" this time. I have always had great respect for you guys that do have to do this work "on demand". It doesn't surprise me one bit that you find it difficult. This is an art form, yet you're supposed to put out work like it's coming off an assembly line. All I can say is... The people that understand what you do, respect you ALOT! Mario HTH
Subject:RE: Am I the only one... Reply by: waynegee Date:8/8/2004 5:45:38 PM I work with a lot of rappers and r&b singers and they ALWAYS want new tracks so I've run up against this more than once...how I combat this is to constantly write and build up the library so I've always got tracks...even when I don't have an assignment or a impending client. I'll pick a genre or look at where the library is thin and write in those areas. This way, I'm always prepared and not caught unaware because "creating on demand" ain't easy. Just me .02, WG
Subject:RE: Am I the only one... Reply by: DJ_Don Date:8/8/2004 8:39:54 PM waynegee, just out of curiosity, how many tracks would you guess you've written? Do you have a more-or-less specified formula for writing, or do tracks come to you in different ways? You see, my music PC has TONS of drum loops, bass loops, synth loops, etc on my hard drive that I've made over the last few years, and the hardest part by far for me is turning loops into cohesive tracks that I'm happy with. By the time I'm 3/4 done with a track I tend to get the itch to move on, hence I have a library of unfinished tracks with very few completed ones. The only time I've been able to consistently finish projects was when I did some remixes for a DJ service. Once I had a deadline (and they were always TIGHT deadlines), I could grind things out to completion. However, remixing someone else's songs is a lot different than making your own. Honestly (call me crazy!), I ultimately want to write a full CD of tunes and make a small bunch of copies and see if I can sell them. Obviously I know the chances of breaking even (let alone make a profit) are slim, but I want to give it a shot. But before I can do that, I need to finish what I started! Maybe I should make some self-imposed deadlines and work from there. I don't know if that will work, but I'll give it a try. So any advice from the pros out there, or even the hobbyists that are good at making complete tracks that they're proud of, would be great. Thanks for reading, and I look forward to hearing your replies. Oh, and BTW, when is 5.0 coming out?? Yes, I'm kidding. :o) Peace.
Subject:RE: Am I the only one... Reply by: Iacobus Date:8/8/2004 9:40:55 PM It depends. Since I concentrate on what I do best, I don't find myself limited by what the client wants. That's probably because the client knows what to expect from me, because I'm up front at what I'm good at and not good at. Do your clients know what they want? Personally, they should at least know what they're looking for. They really shouldn't just jump into it expecting gold to come out of nothing. If they're looking for inspiration from you to get themselves going, it's not exactly bad, but I can't help but think there's something odd about that. Almost like a crutch. DJ_Don: Believe it or not, you are definitely not alone. There are lots of successful artists who have literally thousands of ideas they haven't fully developed yet (if they ever develop them). It's a continually evolving process. What you have to do, in the end, is decide what material you want and don't want to develop. One thing I can recommend is to be organized and form a workflow. Composing projects isn't exactly an easy job, even for someone who uses ACID. There has to be some creative inspiration to get the job done or one can come across the whole "grinding to the end" thing. If you feel something's just not happening with a project even after getting it 3/4 of the way done? Scrap it. There's no sense on working on a project that you feel just isn't doing anything for you. (You don't have to actually delete the project; there may be elements you want to keep for the future.) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: Am I the only one... Reply by: groovewerx Date:8/9/2004 1:27:11 AM As usual, mD drops the k-bomb (knowlege) like a wise guy. So what must I do to increase the ratio?
Subject:That's an interesting perspective... Reply by: waynegee Date:8/9/2004 6:52:04 AM but I don't look for "creative inspiration" when I write...I mean, IMHO, writing is 90% craft and 10% inspiration. There's always something to work on...sonically, arrangement-wise, harmonically, rhytmically, etc. Take Rap/Urban for a minute: There's Gangsta, West Coast, East Coast, Midwest, hardcore, crunk, underground...well, you get the point and it's all very different in it's vernacular. So there's a lot to keep up on right there. Right now, I'm working with a coupla singers, one pop, the other R&B...so I got the latest Britney, Avril, Mya, Jewel, Missy, Michelle Branch cds and it's time for study hall. Now how you feel about the music you study is irrelevant, if you are gonna be a successful, productive writer, you cannot be a "STYLE SNOB"...most hits (or radio songs) work for a reason and as a writer, it's your job to find out why. Pick the songs that interest you and try to write one that makes you feel the same way. So if I pick 2 songs from each of the aforementioned cds for stylistic input, that's 12 NEW SONGS I got now for the library, for other singers, for commercials, to put lyrics to for publishing, etc. I write the tracks and arrange/produce them and then the client/artist takes them and writes to them. Most of these folks don't write or know music so this is a niche that I can fill that's slighty different than the average studio. I bascially run a production company so this is what I offer. However, don't underestimate these singer/songwriters/rappers and their knowledege. I worked along side Eminem on a project last year and he knows his shit and what he wants. Don't copy the song, study the structure: Is it open-ended, is it built on a 4-bar phrase or 8-bar, harmonically what's happening? Is it a song with a traditional chorus and bridge or is it a groove that never changes but the texture, harmony and rhythm elements come in and out to make a song structure. What is the upper kit doing? How many snare patterns? Kicks? Why is this groove so funky and this one so not? When does the chorus hit? The breakdown? Did they modulate? Try to figure out the structure and use it to write. A coupla tips: Try to suss out the bag of the artist or client in advance, if possible. If they need some BT-ish stuff, then get up on why BT is BT...then write some music. If they want some Lil Jon, get a Lil Jon cd and tear it up. Also, unless the client wants to collab on the spot, DON'T. Again, have your initial fact-finding meeting, tell 'em "OK, I'm gonna go thru the library, see what I got and we'll hook up on Tuesday". This gives you some time to go thru your library OR pick up that Lil Jon CD and get crackin'. But it's much easier to create something if you got all the ammo and the artist isn't breathing down your neck...I work better this way and I'm more productive. Don't be too hard on yourself, also...good tracks take time. I probably churn out about 3 tracks a week on average. In answer to DJ Don, I've probably written a coupla hundred tracks or so, some good, some REALLY crap, but the point is: I'm a writer...so I keep going. Interest in a given track isn't too hard for me 'cuz I kinda know what I want to hear from it...so that way, I'll know when it's done. WARNING: FLAME FODDER ALERT: Another thing that really helped me is to STOP using loops as writing tools UNLESS a pre-fab loop is already in the bag I'm writing for or I've made my own to use. Right now, I use ACID rewired to Reason and even tho' ACID is the host, I'm really using Reason as the main compositional tool. Everything I need is right there, sounds great and is very inspiring to me. What I can do with it is limitless. I've also got a shitload of soundware that I use. Another thing that faciltates the writing process for me is gather all of the sounds I'm gonna use for a project before I start, that way I'm not looking for sounds when I should be writing. Of course, you'll always need another one but your pallette is at your fingertips. Current pop/urban music has got an extreme amount of sound design going on (especially Rap), so you might wanna spend time getting that together as well. So, anyway there are SOOOO many ways of approaching the writing process...it's personal and individual. The "writing template" technique works for me, but not for all. My point: keep going-you'll get it. I'm no expert but I gotta thing and it works for me. some samples here, if you are interested: http://www.hedrock.com http://www.hedrock.com/mp3/Being Hunted.mp3 http://www.hedrock.com/mp3/Fragmentia.mp3 http://www.hedrock.com/mp3/M's Night.mp3 http://www.hedrock.com/mp3/Reckoning.mp3 http://www.hedrock.com/mp3/The Gathering.mp3 just me .02 wg
Subject:RE: Am I the only one... Reply by: Rednroll Date:8/9/2004 6:52:19 AM This thread in a lot of aspects summarizes my career in this field. I originally, got into the recording business because, I wanted to be able to create my own music and not be limited to someone elses experience and time constraints of working in a studio atmosphere where money becomes a factor of experimenting around. I think there's 2 kinds of people in this field. One's who can work from nothing and create something for the client, and others who can take the clients idea and take it to another level. I put myself in the second category. If the client gives me something to work with, and it's their originally inspired idea, then I can build upon that creativity. Unfortunately, there's those other clients that come in and expect you to be their producer and engineer and do everything for them with no direction of even where to start. To me this becomes very frustrating. I built up a library of songs for these types of clients, but soon ran into the same problem as groovewerx. So do I work 24 hours a day coming up with songs that will attempt to please everyone walking through the door? If I did that, then when would I have time to work on becoming a better engineer to take the other clients material to the next level? I have worked with engineers/producers who had just did the making of the music part and selling it to my clients that needed inspiration, but those engineers couldn't work very effeciently in recording vocals and mixing. They didn't have these other producing aspects to take it to another level. I soon found myself trying to do both, then when it came time for me to work on my own material......the original reason I got into the business anyway, I felt uninspired to be creative, because I've just spent an entire week doing this same type of "work" for other people. It became a catch 22 for me, of having to make a living and getting things accomplished that I originally wanted to get done for myself. DJ Don's story sounds exactly like mine. I took it to the point of where myself and a partner actually owned our own recording studio with clients regularly coming through the door. Now on top of the other things, I now had to run the business and had NO time to sit back and relax and do my own thing. This became even more frustrating for me. I didn't get into this business to inspire and create music for other people. I thought they would be inspired to do that themselves, but unfortunately everyone wants to be famous and doesn't want to put the hard work in for themselves.....after all they're "just a rapper", or just an "R&B singer". I became so frustrated with these types of clients to make a living that I got into radio and TV commercial production, because I didn't have to be the one "creating the band". I actually found TV production a better environment to work in, because the clients all had their own producers/writiers and I would just take the producers idea and take it to that next level. I ended up selling my side of the business off to my partner to rid myself of the frustrations of not being able to work on my own material. So now that's why I design audio hardware for a living and I have rebuilt my studio in my home. I can now pick and choose who I work with and when I want to work, since I'm not dependant upon that income. I work with both music and voice over/commercial production work, and still find the commercial work more enjoyable and less frustrating and I can charge more money doing less work. This is a win/win situation that worked out for me. Fortunately enough for me I had a bachelors degree in electrical engineering to back up on that allowed me to change career paths. This is the only way, I found it possible to do the type of stuff exactly like DJ Don is describing. To anyone else trying to be a producer/engineer for everyone walking through the door, I say good luck. It's a tough path and don't expect the rewards to be all that lucrative. It's hard to please EVERYONE and that's exactly what you're trying to do. The only way I've been able to manage pleasing everyone is to create an alternative means of income, where I can now chose to pick who I'm working with. So EVERYONE I work with is pleased, I just don't work with EVERYONE. Red
Subject:RE: That's an interesting perspective... Reply by: Iacobus Date:8/9/2004 12:52:50 PM Some very, very good responses here. waynegee: "WARNING: FLAME FODDER ALERT: Another thing that really helped me is to STOP using loops as writing tools UNLESS a pre-fab loop is already in the bag I'm writing for or I've made my own to use. Right now, I use ACID rewired to Reason and even tho' ACID is the host, I'm really using Reason as the main compositional tool. Everything I need is right there, sounds great and is very inspiring to me. What I can do with it is limitless. I've also got a s--tload of soundware that I use." I hardly call that "flame fodder." Sooner or later, one is going to feel limited by the content they have, so they might want to create their own content. For example, I have lots and lots of canned distorted guitar loops. I like a lot of them, but most of the time they are not quite what I was looking for. (I may not like the arrangement of the rhythm. I can chop it up, but as a result it usually sounds artificial rather than the actual raw, live feel a distorted guitar gives.) So I end up recording them myself. It's not exactly easy to do, but it's definitely worth the extra effort. (BTW, very cool stuff on your site, waynegee.) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: That's an interesting perspective... Reply by: waynegee Date:8/9/2004 7:06:26 PM thank you, mD...appreciates it!!
Subject:RE: That's an interesting perspective... Reply by: DKeenum Date:8/10/2004 7:42:23 AM You guys have some great ideas here. One thing that bothers me about new loopers is that they don't have to learn how to create a loop. When you take a song apart and try to recreate it, you learn so much!
Subject:RE: That's an interesting perspective... Reply by: groovewerx Date:8/10/2004 10:52:16 PM Rednroll: Thanks for supporting my descision to return to school and earn a day job degree. Your words give me the answer I've already had. I'm a year away from creative freedom. As for loops, I agree + try it with only a two track mix.

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