Subject:FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Posted by: DJ_Don

Date:6/11/2004 4:13:19 PM

I'm finally getting a UAD-1 Studio pack, and it should be arriving next Tuesday. I'm really excited about it, but I wanted to know if anyone here has any advice for a smooth installation. Does it play nicely with Acid and Sound Forge (Acid 4, and Sound Forge 5)? Is it reasonably "plug and play", or will I have to jump through hoops to get it to work right? Thanks in advance for any advice.

Peace.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/11/2004 7:05:31 PM

I don't have the UAD-1, but I thought I saw a few posts that gave the UAD-1 a thumbs up with ACID, Sound Forge, et al.

Might have to go through a learning curve to get to know the hardware. What I always do in such a situation is download any documents like manuals, knowledge base articles, etc. if they are available from the manufacturer's Web site before receiving the hardware. That way, I have a head start when the hardware arrives.

HTH,
Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
mD's ACIDplanet Page
Guitars 4 Kids

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:6/11/2004 8:10:45 PM

Here is a great forum for the uad-1...

http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/

Ed.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: billybk

Date:6/12/2004 6:22:52 AM

Congrats on the new UAD-1 Studio Pak! I would suggest you download and install the latest v3.51 software beforehand. I believe the Studio Pak comes with v3.4 on CDROM. When your card arrives you can install it into a spare PCI slot, preferably one that is not sharing it's bus with another slot. Check your motherboard manual, for sure , do not install it into the PCI slot that is closest to your AGP card. That slot is almost always sharing with another slot. Make sure that the UAD-1 is on it's own IRQ. The UAD-1 does not like to share IRQ's with other devices. It can lead to performance problems. So it is best to get it straight from the get go. If you find your UAD-1 is sharing an IRQ with another device, try swapping PCI slots first. This usually remedies the problem. If it does not, you may have to go into your sysytem BIOS and manually assign (reserve) a PCI slot to a free IRQ. To gain additional IRQ's you can disable legacy devices you are no longer using. On my DAW, I disabled my Serial Comm ports 1 & 2, and Parallel port. This gave me back three additional IRQ's. Check your motherboard manual for further details.
Other than that just follow the install instructions that come with the UAD-1.
I upgraded my Sound Forge 5 to SF7 last year. Among other things, I really like the dockable Plug-In Manager & Plug-In Chainer. You can easily create and save plug-in chains of your favorite effects for instant recall and then preview and save non-destructively, ie:

Pultec EQ -> LA2A -> Fairchild -> Elephant 2

Sound Forge 7 has been working great with the 3.51 DX plugins. No problems to report at all. Just like using any other Dx plugin.

ACID Pro 4/Vegas 5 works fairly well, but has one annoying problem, that really only manifests itself after your UAD-1 plugin count surpases 5 or more (or 60% DSP), you get native CPU munching. Do a search on the forums for native "CPU munching" for further info and workaround. There should be some 70 + posts on the subject.

One good thing to do is to keep the UAD-1 Performance Meter in "Always On Top" mode on your desktop for monitoring purposes. I keep mine in lower right hand corner.

When using ACID/Vegas, the UAD-1 will work best with low latency drivers. I use my Delta in ASIO mode. Generally at 1024 sample buffer (1024msec) or lower.

With Sound Forge low latency does not matter, since it is just a stereo track editor and will default to MME mode anyway.

HTH,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/12/2004 8:58:46 AM

one thing you need to know is...

your songs are about to sound a lot better.

the uad compressors are pretty much the best "creative" compressors in the market. you can get all sorts of cool sounds out of them.

just make sure you know how to properly use compression and you'll get your money's worth.

PS-if acid 5 doesn't address the UAD "cpu munching" and have some really kick-ass features i'm just going the take a week off and learn nuendo or protools.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:6/12/2004 11:02:17 AM

DO NOT PUT A UAD EFFECT AFTER A WAVES MASTERING PLUGGIN.this is the only problem i have with the uad card,some of the waves plugs use a delay compensator and so does the uad plugs. other than that the la2a is amazing and pultec is great.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: billybk

Date:6/12/2004 2:56:42 PM

Oh, I forgot one other "little" annoyance in ACID 4/Vegas 4. There is a bug whereas if you use a LA2A, Pultec or Fairchild on a track insert and route it to a bus which has either the RealVerb Pro or DreamVerb in it, you will eventually get a program freeze (requiring a Ctrl/Alt Delete to quit ACID), after a short period of time, as you are adjusting the plugins (Realverb/Dreamverb) parameters during playback. This is a SONY bug as this behavior does not occur in any other host app. The good news is that this bug has been cured in Vegas 5. Since both ACID & Vegas share the same basic audio engine, this will probably be fixed in ACID Pro 5. Here is the text of the e-mail I sent to SONY tech support last January concerning this issue in both Vegas & ACID:



If any of these plugs: LA-2A, Pultec, or Fairchild are used as a track effect, I cannot send from an insert send from that track to a realverb or dreamverb. Everything is fine until you try to adjust any parameter's, like the mix level, on the RealVerb or DreamVerb and then BAM!, HUNG APP! This also happens in ACID Pro 4 too! Which does not surprise me since they use basically the same audio engine. I believe this is a SONY problem though, as this does not happen at all, in SONAR 3.1. I just had a Pultec followed by an LA2A, as track inserts, in two separate tracks, one track going to Aux Bus 1, with the Realverb, and the second one going to Aux Bus 2 with the DreamVerb. Not even a hiccup, smooth as silk, no matter what I did to the plugin parameters.
I am using the latest 3.4 DX versions of the UAD-1. Several other users, including PipelineAudio, have also confirmed this bug. I believe you have a UAD-1 available, or someone on your staff does, as this is easily reproduced. This also happens in ACID Pro 4e too!

Thank you for your help,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:6/12/2004 8:29:57 PM

>>>PS-if acid 5 doesn't address the UAD "cpu munching" and have some really kick-ass features i'm just going the take a week off and learn nuendo or protools<<<

Coolout thats unfair dude...

The "cpu munching" bug is global over many apps+plugin types[vst/DX]. Calling this a sony only bug is wrong. Peter already said that he has sent out emails to ua but they 're not answering. Go on THEIR forum and bitch for better DX support for 3.5.2...4.0 whatever...

Don't forget that this is the way Ua has ALWAYS treated its customers...Yes even VST ones. In the beginning Vst users were the guinea pigs for them and the percentage of users who had a stable running app were few and far...get it? It took them 9+ months to get it close to being right.[no lie]

Keep emailing them and hopefully they'll get their act together with DX plugins soon.

Ed.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/13/2004 9:36:41 AM

huh? unfair?

what other apps have the "cpu munching" issue besides SOny/FO apps?

i'm not trying to point the finger because i don't know who to blame but the word seems to be that the UAD plugs both DX and VST work a bit smoother in other apps.

it's something about the DX versions and the acid sound engine not jivin'...how long have uad/DX plug been out? a year and half at least.

i love the ease of editing in acid and i usually use it on a project start to finish, but man would it be great to not babysit my cpu meter and just work. plus, be able to mix with a real mixer.

i watched a friend of mine have a nuendo project filled to brim with tracks and effects. cpu was at 90% and his uad was at 95%...not a stutter, cough, or hiccup. it still played just like it was at 30%.

i was sooooo envious. i could never throw that type of stress at acid although i probably would have finished the song quicker.

the newest version of protools will include delay compensation so that type of intergration makes it really attactive. if you have a UAD and Powercore you'd have as much DSP power as a megabuck TDM system and could feel like one of the big boys.

the only prob is digi limits the LE version of protools to 32 tracks(what a rip).

either way if acid 5 is a rewire client all should be solved.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: DJ_Don

Date:6/13/2004 12:20:05 PM

Thanks everybody! It looks like it will be arriving on Wednesday, along with my Event Precision 8's. Between the monitor upgrade (from Event 20/20p's) and the new UAD-1 (vs stock SoFo/sony plugins from Sound Forge and Acid), I'm hoping to take my sound to a whole new level. Just the names that the UAD-1 emulate make me drool--Pultec, Fairchild, etc. I can't wait! Any other thoughts?

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: billybk

Date:6/13/2004 2:45:08 PM

"The "cpu munching" bug is global over many apps+plugin types[vst/DX]. Calling this a sony only bug is wrong. Peter already said that he has sent out emails to ua but they 're not answering. Go on THEIR forum and bitch for better DX support for 3.5.2...4.0 whatever..."

Well ......... all host apps use some additional native CPU, to a degree, when using UAD-1 plugins in a project. It's just that the Sony apps are the worst of the bunch, by far, when it comes to eating native CPU. I have tested my PIII 1Ghz/XP Pro DAW (with 2 - UAD-1 DSP cards), with most of the leading host apps (Nuendo 2.2, Samplitude 7.22, SONAR 3.11, Vegas 5a & ACID Pro 4f) and non-Sony apps use just a fraction of the native CPU that ACID/Vegas uses. I can place the same (6) audio tracks and (11) UAD-1 plugins in the aforementioned host apps, at the same 1024 sample buffer (23.2msec) and whereas, the average added native CPU hit in Nuendo, Samplitude & SONAR would be in the 6%-11% range (less than 1% per plug), I take a whopping 50% native CPU hit, in a Vegas & ACID project. That is just an example of the huge difference in performance when using UAD-1 plugs, in Sony host apps verses the competition. This is most evident when the plugin count goes above (5) or DSP usage surpasses 60%. The host CPU usage just zooms up. I have been at a loss, as to why the native CPU usage skyrockets, when using UAD-1 plugins, in a Vegas/ACID project, after you start playback. But as soon as you, disable and then re-enable the DSP plugs globally, during playback, from the desktop UAD-1 Performance Meter, the native CPU usage drops like a rock, to where it is to begin with, in the other host apps. So the question is, what in ACID/Vegas causes the native CPU to skyrocket after starting playback, when using PPI's in a project, that does not seem to happen in other audio host apps using the same audio files, UAD-1 plugins and sample buffers? This is easliy re-produced and 100% predictible and happens with either the DX or VST versions (wrapped with either the Cakewalk 4.41 or DirectiXer 2.5 adapters). Not trying to place blame, but just looking for answers.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:6/14/2004 1:47:05 PM

Coolout...

>>>what other apps have the "cpu munching" issue besides SOny/FO apps?<<<I've seen you on the uad forums...Do a search and you'll see that even steinberg stuff has its problems with some system specs. Could be a mobo issue? Not sure.

But understand that Uad-1's focus has been getting it right with the competitors apps and NOT much focus on Acid/vegas. How did sonar solve this? Peter can you chime in? Maybe because sonar wrote code to "work around" the bugs in the uad driver??? Peter has said in the past how he hates to modify the host code to fix someone elses problem.

Uad has admitted to having bugs with DX and continues to provide fixes for everyone else. Remember peter stated that Uad Dx plugins are really vst plugins with a DX wrapper that they got from fxpansion. Would we be having all these problems if they took the time to write true well written DX plugins from the ground up???

>>>plus, be able to mix with a real mixer.<<<Real mixer? Does having your faders vertical mean THAT much to you? Look at Vegas 5 for a hint for whats to come.

Personally I think since Uad were in bed with steinberg from the beginning I don't see it as much of a surprise that their plugins work so "effortlessly" as they do. From day one they had a bundle with Cubase 5.0 and uad-1. No one else gave them much support at all.

Again...Go email ua and bitch at them. That or peter is going to have to fix it in the code. Either way work with whats best for you dude.

Ed.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/15/2004 5:41:08 AM

thank for backing me up billy.

it's acid's audio engine and it's implementation of DX that not working as well with the UAD and i haven't seen it with other apps. i've sent email to UAD at least a year ago about this.

i'm not saying it doesn't work just not as well as other apps.

i understand in that time i initially reported the bug UA moved support from mackie and acid went throught the whole sony/SOFO thing, but it's seems UA and sony don't seem to be worried about this, which...well sucks.

and yes if the acid mixer had at least the option to look like a regular mixer it would help a bit just like bypassing the record dialog box and support for contol surfaces like the mackie.


also, i'm pretty sure the UAD DX plugs are DX from the ground up not wrapped vst.

when vst are wrapped you don't get delay compensation right?

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: billybk

Date:6/15/2004 6:54:49 AM

".....also, i'm pretty sure the UAD DX plugs are DX from the ground up not wrapped vst.

when vst are wrapped you don't get delay compensation right?"

Hey coolout,
Well, actually the UAD-1 DX plugins are "wrapped" with a VST-DX wrapper. In fact, FXpansion (the same company that later sold the VST-DX adapter technology to Cakewalk) was contracted, by UA, to design the wrapper to work, transparently with the UAD-1. I even helped beta test it initially. The latest VST-DX adapters (Cakewalk's 4.41 & DirectiXer 2.5) both report the proper PDC to the host app, like DX plugins do. I am wondering if it is how the wrappers (Cakes 4.41, DirectiXer 2.5 & UA's internal wrapper) report the PDC to the host app (Vegas/ACID) that maybe the problem. It could possibly be, that the way Vegas/ACID interpets this data causes the huge native CPU drain when you intitially start playback. But, then when you do the disable-re-enable trick during playback, Vegas/ACID, suddenly understands the PDC values correctly and the native CPU is released. Somehow, I think there is a corelation between the PDC in Vegas/ACID and the various VST/DX wrappers when using the PPI's, that only really manifests itself, once you start to use a number of PPI's (more than 5 or 60% DSP), in a project. If we could figure out why the native CPU usage suddenly drops, to normal values, during playback, when you do the global disable/re-enable trick from the UAD-1 Performance Meter, I think we would find the answer as to why the native CPU munching happens, in the first place, everytime you start playback.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:6/15/2004 3:39:25 PM

Billy...

Didn't you say in the other forum that you were having a easier time with the uad vst plugins+cakewalks wrapper??? Than say using a UAD DX plugin in sonar???

I hope that this issue gets resolved soon. I just don't like the finger pointed to acid/vegas thats all. UA is a GREAT company for audio plugin quality. But HORRIBLE in terms of implementation and support. Just scan back to earlier posts on the drivers on the above site to see that I'm not lieing.

Ed.

BTW coolout...I think that we should all be writing UA once a week so that they know how serious we are as consumers that it should get fixed.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: billybk

Date:6/15/2004 4:59:08 PM

Hi Ed,

"Didn't you say in the other forum that you were having a easier time with the uad vst plugins+cakewalks wrapper??? Than say using a UAD DX plugin in sonar???"

Only when using SONAR and project looping are the UA VST (w/ Cake wrapper) PPI's better than the UA furnished DX ones.. Otherwise, I actually like using the DX PPI's better. Project looping in ACID/Vegas, using the DX PPI's has always been solid.

"I hope that this issue gets resolved soon. I just don't like the finger pointed to acid/vegas thats all."

Believe me, I would like to see this resolved too! As far as finger pointing, it appears that it points in UA's direction after all! Thanks to Peter's help, in trying to resolve this issue, and UA finally being upfront about it, it seems UA has identified the problem to be of it's own making and not the fault of any DX host app (Cakewalk/SOFO/Sony):

From UA:

"We have identified that some systems experience a problem with host CPU "munching" in certain multi-track scenarios where UAD plug-ins are used on more than one track (Usually there is a high plug-in count or high DSP load threshold where the problem begins to appear. This varies from system to system; some systems do not have the problem at all).
There is a workaround which causes the host load to drop back down to the expected level, but it is a big pain:
Disable then re-enable the UAD-1 plugins (by using the UAD-1 Performance Meter or via host app) after starting playback.

The problem does in fact affect both Sonic Foundry [Vegas and ACID] and Cakewalk users (our two supported DX platforms).

So far as we can tell, this is definitely a problem of our own and not with the Sonic Foundry or Cakewalk software. At no point have we expressed to our user-base that responsibility lies with Sonic Foundry or Cakewalk regarding this problem. If we identify what appears to be a problem with Sonic Foundry software, we will of course discuss this with you immediately."


" UA is a GREAT company for audio plugin quality. But HORRIBLE in terms of implementation and support. Just scan back to earlier posts on the drivers on the above site to see that I'm not lieing."

I wished they had actually developed true DX versions of the PPI's. But, to UA's credit, they are the ONLY DSP plugin company to actually offer a viable solution and full support for DX hosts(SONAR/Vegas/ACID/Sound Forge). The other DSP companies(TC/Creamware) only offer a VST option and if you use a third party wrapper they will not offer any support, so you are on your own and up the creek without a paddle.

Anyway, as of now, I have zero problems using the PPI's in Sound Forge 7a,
only the native CPU munchies in Vegas 5a and ACID 4 and a program freeze problem in ACID 4/Vegas 4 when using a LA2A, a 1176LN or Pultec on a track insert and sending it to an Aux bus that has either a Dreamverb or Realverb. If you try to change the parameter's on the 'verbs during playback, ACID 4/Vegas 4 freezes up and only a Ctrl/Alt Delete fixes it. To Sony's credit this was fixed in Vegas 5, so I am assumming this issue will be resolved in ACID 5 too.

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: DJ_Don

Date:6/15/2004 7:53:00 PM

Well folks, my card and my speakers arrived today (FedEx's site said Wednesday--I'll forgive them for being early!). The installation went well, except for the fact that you have to go back to UA's site to get the registration for your plugins AFTER you register your card (not a major problem, but an inconvenience nevertheless, since my web PC and my music PC are not the same machine). Anyway, once everything was up and running, I opened Acid and pulled up a home-made drum loop. Nothing special, but it seemed like a good one to experiment with. I opened the plugin chainer, and there were my UAD plugins, ready to go. I put a Pultec EQ on the loop and basically messed around with the dials. I then switched the Pultec out of the plugin chain (I just hit bypass) and HOLY CRAP WHAT A DIFFERENCE! When I read that these plugins can make stuff sound "better" just having them in your signal chain, they weren't kidding! I've tried the Dreamverb (which locked up on me for about 1 minute even when it was the only plugin being used), and the Fairchild, and I'm off to experiment more. My biggest gripe so far (other than the freeze)? The Nigel plugins don't appear to have a way to sync to tempo. If I'm wrong on this PLEASE let me know. Other than that, I can IMMEDIATELY see where this card and my new Precision 8 speakers are going to make my recordings about 10 times better. BTW, I am REALLY grateful for the help you all gave. I downloaded the most up-to-date software from UA's site a couple days ago, and I had it ready to go on CD when the card arrived. Everything went well on the installation in large part because I asked for your advice here. Thanks again, and here's to a lot of rewarding hours in my now-not-so-humble studio. Other than Acid 5, I'm set! (Sorry, I couldn't resist :o)).

Peace.

Subject:RE: FINALLY getting a UAD-1 card. Any surprises I need to know of first?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:6/16/2004 1:11:02 AM

Hey bro...

>>>UA has identified the problem to be of it's own making and not the fault of any DX host app (Cakewalk/SOFO/Sony):<<<

Thats good to hear. Thankyou peter for taking the time to sort this out. And thankyou billy for keeping up with all the beta testing.

>>>they are the ONLY DSP plugin company to actually offer a viable solution and full support for DX hosts(SONAR/Vegas/ACID/Sound Forge). <<<

I wish this weren't true. There is a Tc powercore forum here:

http://www.powercore.noheaven.com/

If you want support for DX plugins I guess here is a good place to start bitching.

Ed.