AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... -ACID Product Family

ACID Product Family

Subject:AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Posted by: Spirit Date:6/3/2004 6:11:44 PM Ableton 4 has been announced and it looks extremely good. VSTi hosting, MIDI loops and exports, routing, audio playback by keyboard etc etc Ableton 4 is Acid's main competitor imho. AcidPro5 is going to need some very good new features to stack up against this release... And it's my guess that both will be out for Summer Namm http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=live&sub=FeatureList http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=live&sub=WhatsNew
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: ozzborn Date:6/3/2004 6:43:54 PM i bought abelton 1.0 and after using it i went back to acid because i prefer acids workflow. all i need in A5 is #3.vst pluggins for better intergration with tc powercore and uad cards. #2. better intergration of midi. when you press play on the pianoroll editor ,the rest of the audio in your arrange page should play. better midi effects would be great to.(swing,quantize,groove) #1. stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability, stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability, stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability,stability, stability,stability,stability,stability,stability, i know alot of people have diffrent uses for acid.but i think these three things are the core of what acid needs to gain a stronger foothold in the market as a standalone app.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:6/3/2004 9:28:26 PM Why does acid 5 have to compete with abelton? Why not just "rewire" them together and have the best of both worlds? Remember abelton is a multitrack recorder as well. Problems??? The gui I guess. ;) Ed.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/4/2004 12:09:38 AM Ableton is the direct competitor of Acid. And it adds VSTi support and MIDI. people wanting this functionality will be making the choice: Acid or Ableton. Not everyone can afford both, and if they cover the same ground why would anyone buy both if they didn't need to ? The "why do they need to compete" argument is naive. They do compete because they are similar products. People will compare specs and make a choice. The products are now in exactly the same - very small - market.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: plastique Date:6/4/2004 1:31:07 AM I found Ableton Live 3 wasn't a competition , but Version 4 - from the specs - is definitely going to be. But then again , ACID Pro 4 is almost two years old now.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: billybk Date:6/4/2004 8:01:20 AM "I found Ableton Live 3 wasn't a competition , but Version 4 - from the specs - is definitely going to be. But then again , ACID Pro 4 is almost two years old now." Wow, I am blown away with the new Live 4 annouincement. I have tried Live, in the past, and although it had many innovative features, it was not a replacement for ACID 4. But, after drooling over the very well laid out "Live 4" visual tour, I may just have to forgo the upgrade to ACID 5 (whenever that will be, it has gotten to the point where I really don't care anymore), and use my limited funds, jump ship, and crossgrade to Live 4., once and for all! I mean, lets face it, ACID 4 has not been updated in two years and counting, during that time, Live has gone from 1.0 to now 4.0. Three significant upgrades past ACID 4. It just seems that the Abletion crew is working thier butts off to implement the features their user base is asking for in a timely manner. I like their new slogan for Live 4, "Announcing Live 4. The worlds first real-time music production suite is now complete." From what I have seen so far, with Live 4, I am tending to agree. With multitracking, audio & MIDI, softsynths, looping, Rewire host AND slave, groovebox tools, real-time effects, editing, basically everthing that ACID users have been waiting years for. What I really like is that everthing can be done in real-time, with no gapping, while your in the creative flow. In testing Live 3, I don't get any of that "native CPU munching" that plagues both ACID & Vegas, when using my UAD-1 DSP plugins. I am sure Live 4 will work just as well. Another thing I like, is Ableton will be releasing a free beta of Live 4, in the next few weeks, (something the old Sonic Foundry used to do), so even non-Live users can check out the possibilities. So unless ACID 5 can step up to the plate, with a wicked update that blows me away, before the end of July (Live 4's release date), which I seriously doubt at this point, I'll be selling my A4 license, on ebay, and joining the ranks of the Live 4 generation. Billy Buck
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:6/4/2004 8:16:28 AM ozzborn, could you please add a few spaces in your "stability" comment so it doesn't screw up forum browsing. Thanks, ~jr
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/4/2004 10:09:38 AM I feel a bit stuck too. Do I wait to see what Sony are going to pull out (whenever that may be); buy Ableton 3 now so I save a few dollars on the new price; or maybe wait for July and see if Ableton do another Acid crossgrade offer ? Really I'm tempted to just jump now and go with Ableton 3....
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: billybk Date:6/4/2004 10:31:45 AM I think I'll just download the free Live 4 beta (which according to Ableton's website, should be available in the next few weeks) and really put it through some real world testing, on my DAW, and see if it holds up to all the hype first. If it does, I'll e-mail Ableton directly and ask what they can do for us poor ACID users, as far as crossgrade offer :) But the proof is in the pudding, so I'll wait before I make a final decision, I just spent $339.00 dollars on a new Project Pak to compliment my current UAD-1 Studio Pak, so money is kinda tight right now. Billy Buck
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: gjn Date:6/4/2004 10:48:18 AM me too
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: ATP Date:6/4/2004 10:57:16 AM the problem with Live for me always was the GUI more than the possible limitations of the program. it looks like they sorted out that last point, if the real-time stretching equals the quality of ACID that is. i'll definitely check out the beta to see if Live has improved on the user-friendlyness side. still, i've been an ACID junkie since 1.0, so it's not gonna be something i'll give up easily.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Iacobus Date:6/4/2004 12:34:58 PM OK, I took a look... That's all they could come up with? You still cannot work with video, and it still cannot import/export many popular formats such as QuickTime, MPEG, MP3 and Windows Media. And that GUI...ugh...you'd think they'd change it, but I guess the "attracted to bright and shiny things" crowd loves it. For those that are thinking of "jumping ship," go ahead if you want to. Nobody's stopping you. Just remember I'll be here when you come back. >:o) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: gjn Date:6/4/2004 12:43:05 PM http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=live&sub=WhatsNew amen goodby sony.... hello ableton
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: superddman Date:6/4/2004 9:38:47 PM i am also wondering about this new ableton but the interface seems to be same which throws me off automatically. i will just probably try the demo for fun when it comes out but stick with acid.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: coolout Date:6/5/2004 3:50:36 AM MD, you just read my mind... the best thing they could have done was change the bassackwards GUI or at least given users the option. it worked for cakewalk...now sonar looks like a real application...that star trek look is so outdated. just looking at live makes me seasick. i can't believe live still won't import/export mp3. it just seems they added some more keyboard control and a couple of things you can get from any sampling vsti. they still don't even understand how some people don't like the crappy GUI with the 2-D knobs and faders that are way too short, the channels being on right when every audio app has them on the left, the windows you can't move only hide. plus there's still no chopper. i have numerous hardware and software samplers (akai mpc, battery, cyloops, etc.) that do the job much better that live. i also as a DJ own pioneer cd decks that enable me to loop, pitch-shift, scratch and manipulate any audio put on a cd without having to worry about lugging a computer and stability issues. how are you suppose to DJ with live when you can't even open an MP3? $499?!?!? that the cost of one of my cd decks. i hope acid 5 focuses only on addressing the UAD cpu problem, adds multtrack audio and midi recording with out a popup box, finally vst support, and a dedicated traditional track mixer page. then it would kick live's a$$. i'll try out the live beta when it comes out with an open mind but i'm pretty sure it going to be the same old, same old.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: DKeenum Date:6/5/2004 8:21:11 AM My 2 cents is that acid works for me. I can work really fast, and that says a lot. I know there are limitations, but every program has them.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Iacobus Date:6/5/2004 1:16:16 PM What I can't understand is this prophecy of doom for Sony and/or ACID just because Ableton releases another version of Live. If Live works for someone, then by all means use it. Use what works for you. Live just doesn't work for me. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: chaircrusher Date:6/5/2004 6:36:51 PM Without breaking NDA, let me say that you should be pretty happy with Acid 5.... Ableton Live is great, especially for playing live, but I have never gotten very comfortable with it.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/5/2004 8:01:04 PM MD - I think the whole point is how many people "does it work for". With the Ableton4 specs the answer might be "many potential Acid customers". And there would no "prophesy of doom" if the Ableton4 specs weren't so good. It'll be very interesting to see whether AcidPro5 MIDI specs and VSTi hosting can compete with Ableton4 specs, and have some extras that Ableton misses... Personally I think AP5 will need some BIG enhancements to look like a competitor at all. --- * ps: can a moderator please edit that "stability" line near the top of the thread so this thread is readable ?
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:6/5/2004 11:09:29 PM Spirit I have to disagre with your "naive" statement. [not to flame and I DO say this with alot of love] Whats in the upgrade for abelton 4 that you couldn't have gotten "tenfold" already with sonar producer??? Did that program make everybody kick acid to the curb? There are all types of programs out now [with bug fixs already] that have crossgrade offers from acid...users come and go. Have you heard of anybody leaving sonar for abeltons multitracking for example? Or even for any of the other features of 3 and now 4??? [with or without a crossgrade] When you get a crossgrade offer it doesn't mean that you have to stop using the program that the offer was for. So anybody can get the crossgrade offer and just rewire them together. [Everybody wins...the whole point of rewire] Anyone using acid 4.0f rewired to abelton 4 will have a quick workflow in one and a learning curve in the other. But in the end work will still get done and I can see how the pros and cons of each will balance out eithers. IMHO you would have to be SMOKING CRACK to just stop using acid just because of this abelton upgrade...billy??? ;)] For me the gui is horrible and the least amount of time I could spend in it the better. But I can really care less since I already own sonar producer. I would very much like to rewire acid to vegas instead of sonar...sigh. Did anybody even look at what kind of a kick@ss audio upgrade vegas got? You all know that acid and vegas share many of the same audio features except multitrack recording and input monitoring among a few others. If the rest of the features were added to acid that would be a GREAT start to a upgrade. [I am NOT beta testing this version of acid pro 5 so I'm not breaking any NDA...I'm only guessing as to how upgrade cycles have performed in the past...Oh and thanks for forgetting me Peter on this beta ;) !] Acid has "saved the day" many times over for many people because of what acid does/is. I can't see this upgrade of abelton doing away with acid...only augmenting it. [spelling?...sorry I'm tired] Ed. Btw...spirit I do agree that a moderator needs to "tidy" up the thread thats causing this abnormaility to happen.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: L25 Date:6/6/2004 2:50:47 AM Can't you "rewire" acid and vegas via VMR? I digress, but one of my gripes is that I can record,say, absynth audio in Soundforge and ACID, but not directly in Vegas.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: billybk Date:6/6/2004 5:22:59 AM "IMHO you would have to be SMOKING CRACK to just stop using acid just because of this abelton upgrade...billy??? ;)]" I never said I would stop using ACID 4, just that I would not upgrade to ACID 5 ;) I instead would shift my A5 upgrade funds to a Live 4 crossgrade, thats all. The decision for me will be, do I upgrade to A5 or crossgrade to L4. Even if I crossgrade to L4, I still get to keep my A4. "For me the gui is horrible and the least amount of time I could spend in it the better. But I can really care less since I already own sonar producer. I would very much like to rewire acid to vegas instead of sonar...sigh." When I first worked with the Live demo's, I had a hard time getting comfortable with it's GUI too. But having played with it some more I have begun to see how it really does streamline your workflow once you get confortable with it's unique GUI paradigm. Like understanding the relationship between the Session and Arrangement views and knowing how to effectively utilize each one when working on a project. Hey ed, I am not saying I would abandon ACID entirely, I already have a lot invested in it to do that (bought ACID 1.0 and every subsequent upgrade since then and would still use A4). Only that I may not upgrade this time around and instead crossgrade to Live 4. I still need to beta test Live 4, in my DAW first, before I cross that bridge though. Billy Buck
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/6/2004 6:55:49 AM I'm exactly with you BillyBk - crossgrade to Ableton or upgrade to AP5. And Shtunot, no offence taken at all. The difference between Sonar and Ableton versus Acid is that Ableton is imho the direct competitor to Acid. SX had Logic (now Sonar); Fruity has Orion; Acid has Ableton. It's a matter of perception as much as anything else. And Ableton is currently zooming out in front in the "wow" factor stakes. As flimsy as that may be in fact, it can be decisive in the market. I see quite a few forums going nuts over this release. Threads at KvR seems to bill it as a "Reason-killer"; at Cubase they seem to see it as moving up a step to join SX and Sonar in the big league - NB: based on anecdotal browsing ! I'd be amazed to ever see threads in those forums describing AcidPro in such terms. And interesting comments about the gui. A fair number of people seem to hate it. Personally I rather like it. I suppose we'll have skins next...
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: billybk Date:6/6/2004 9:03:52 AM " I'll be selling my A4 license, on ebay" I'll kindly retract my previous statement! :) I kinda got carried away there. I have too much invested in ACID (upgrading from 1.0 through 4.0) to do that. Hey, ACID Pro 4 is, and will continue to be, a great looping arranging tool and music creation app. The decision I have to make is, whether to continue the upgrade path I have been on with ACID or instead add Live 4 to my palette. So I guess it comes down to, upgrade to ACID 5 or keep ACID 4 & crossgrade to Live 4. The jury is still out until I can take a Live 4 beta test drive and see if it lives up to all the hype. But I'll still keep my ACID Pro 4 regardless ;) Billy Buck
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:6/6/2004 2:53:47 PM Hey guys... The funny thing is that I was reading in the sonar forums people getting a bit worked up over this upgrade which is great for abelton. The "gapless audio engine" and such. Hey they've bulit the better mouse trap which will push the others into keeping up. From browsing around I get the feeling people feel that the new abelton is a "direct competitor" for sonar/sx/nuendo more than just acid. Will the sony guys pull through a "worth while" update...time will tell. But nomatter what I've budgeted and put aside cash. This next release needs to have its own "public beta" so that it can offset the buzz from abelton. Even if it falls short on some features [multitracking???]just the added relief of knowing that sony wants the most stable app that they could have out might sway some cash in their direction. Ed.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Iacobus Date:6/7/2004 12:20:10 PM Then again many potential ACID customers are also looking for a multimedia production solution for their needs, not just music. This is where ACID especially aces Live any day of the week. I can't believe SONAR users would be up in arms about Live. That just baffles me for the reasons stated above. I guess I'm just thinking in a different mode. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page Guitars 4 Kids
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/7/2004 5:11:47 PM I wonder how significant the multimedia angle really is ? I think I've imported a video into Acid once. On the other hand I've rendered an Acid track and taken that into Vegas many, many times. But if you don't have Vegas.... On the "direct competitor" issue I think the situation is that Ableton is direct competitor for Acid, but not vice versa. By that I mean if you were thinking of buying Acid you might look around and think "what's the closest alternative?" and the answer would be Ableton. But if you were thinking of buying Ableton and looking about, then I think you'd say "Hmmm, maybe instead Sonar or SX ?" That's where I think Acid's greatest weakness is - it's not really considered in the same "host" league, it's just a minor tool in the armoury. That's the perception which I believe AP5 has to overcome if it's to regain a leading position. For the past few years Acid's been trading on reputation, having long ago set the looping and audio standard, but not having advanced significantly from that glorious single achievement.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: jumbuk Date:6/7/2004 6:14:28 PM I agree. To learn a new interface/way of working, the benefits need to be worthwhile. I hope Sony/SF don't fall into the trap of picking Live as their direct competitor and just going head-to-head with every new feature. Acid works because it does something that nothing else could do when it was released. It is still the easiest, most intuitive and stable way of working with loops. They should just keep heading in their own direction. Hopefully Sony hasn't killed the enthusiasm and innovation of the original SF people.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/7/2004 6:42:42 PM I'm guessing that AP5 is all but done by now anyway so there wouldn't be much of a chance to start dancing to Ableton's tune. What will be most interesting is to see whether AP5 has merely played "catch up" with features already in other apps, or has actually come up with some true innovations like Ableton 4.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: chaircrusher Date:6/7/2004 8:46:36 PM I think that while there is a lot you can do in Live that you can't do in Acid, to say that Live somehow negates Acid's position in the marketplace is silly. Acid has an installed base of enthusiastic installed base of users that are very comfortable with it. Live has an idiosyncratic user interface that's nowhere near as intuitive -- at least to me. Acid was never pitched as a tool to play live with, whereas Live is very focused on playing, err, live. If you want to forsake Acid for Live, go for it. Sonic Foundry already has your money, right? But I'd definitely spend some quality time with Live before you decide it's all that. And why didn't people say that Acid was doomed, DOOMED! when Cakewalk Project 5 came out? Project 5 covers substantially the same territory as Acid and Reason both, and has a very well-thought-out user interface. The fact is that I was given the Project 5 CDs and have never installed them because I'd rather be making tracks with the tools I know. I got a free review copy of Wavelab and still use Sound Forge exclusively. People that hop from program to program tend not to finish any music.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/7/2004 10:14:08 PM Project 5 was a dog and doesn't do audio. I don;t think it's like Acid in any way. I got a free copy for review purposes and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. In the end I told the distributor I wouldn't review it because I wouldn't be able to say anything positive. But the fact that no one said Project 5 or Sonar or SX2 was an Acid-killer, but that there are a few people implying that now about Ableton should be cause for concern, not comfort. Nor is their any comfort in the "switch if you like because Sony already has your money": argument. That's not going to help Sony this month, or next month, nor will it sell loop libraries or application upgrades. The GUI issue can be seen both ways. The Ableton GUI is imho often perceived hand-in-hand with its modern progressive image - it's something new, different and dynamic. And to say Live is primarily for "live" work only is like saying Acid is for loops only. Once true perhaps, but both apps have matured beyond their original spec. * A degree of devli's advocate in all this :-)
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:6/7/2004 10:46:16 PM >>>That's where I think Acid's greatest weakness is - it's not really considered in the same "host" league, it's just a minor tool in the armoury.<<< "Minor tool in the armoury"??? You've got to be kidding me. If they implemented just rewire "slave" to AP5 I'd put my money on people getting that to use with sonar/cubase/nuendo over abelton. Not to take away from the buzz from abelton 4 but I wish people were to stop making it out to seem like they've been "suffering" all this time using acid untill abelton 4 comes out. I've read threads where people just seemed to show how "new" to the game they are. Again, nice upgrade timeline/feature set...but anything that would cripple the competition...ahh the newbys. I doubt that the sony r&d team has come this far to just put out a lame update. Look at what was done with AP4 during sofo money-pinching days. Took a bit of time but they got the job done. Look at the kind of upgrade vegas AND DVD architect got...now onto acid pro 5. I'm not worried. Ed.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/7/2004 11:24:38 PM In threads I read no one ever seriously considers AP as their main host. Would anyone seriously choose to run VSTi and do MIDI work in AP4 ?! The VSTi and MIDI implementation is just about the worst of any music app on the market. But since Ableton has not had VSTi or MIDI it likewise could never be considered a main host. But judging by the hype this has all changed with Ableton 4. It's MIDI capabilities look excellent - certainly what I want. Will the new features in AcidPro5 also propell Acid into the "main host" category alongside SX, Logic, Sonar etc ? It'd have to be a pretty stunning upgrade.... and I hope it is. I'd much rather stay with Acid than crossgrade. Also, a lot of damage was done to Acid by the hopelessly buggy initial release of AP4 and its poor ergonomics (I gave up on AP4 and still use 3g). I think people will be suspicious of the release and will wait to see what version 5.0a is like from other users before drooling too much over any good-looking specs. With Ableton people appear to simply assume it will "work as advertised" and I've seen no "remember the bugs of version 3" warnings...
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:6/8/2004 12:27:55 AM Spirit... AP not considered their main host??? 10 people on one message board a good sign of that??? Like I said...rewire slave AP5 to the others. Worst implementation of midi/vsti??? If you look at it half full like I do it works as advertised for a loop app. It never was said to be a midi sequencer. With vsti's you could easily dial up infinite amount of sounds now...record a 8 bar loop...print/acidize/add to project...done. So the user has to brush up on his keyboard skills...tough. Nail the take or buy cubendo/sonar for all the midi madness. I totally agree on the buggy release fears. The only part I'm unsure of. Thats why I would love it to have a public beta as well. Ed.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/8/2004 1:57:29 AM I'm going on "general feel" across various music forums. But of course it's only anecdotal. But don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Acid fan ! Critical as hell, sure, but still a huge fan.
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: DKeenum Date:6/8/2004 7:27:57 AM I've been wondering what this is all about. My view is that people vote best with thier pocketbook. But I think I see where you are going. You don't want to leave acid, you just want acid(sony) to step up to the plate. You want acid to make it's self competetive. Is that close to what you're saying?
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/8/2004 9:46:56 AM :-)
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: gjn Date:6/9/2004 3:59:35 AM bravo m spirit i agree
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: billybk Date:6/9/2004 7:35:26 AM .....mmmmm, I assumed that Live had full automatic plugin delay compensation, but that assumption proved to be wrong. Like it's predecessors, Live 4 will not have PDC either. I guess that is why Ableton can claim that Live has a gapless audio engine, since it is hard to have a truly "gapless" audio engine when your host app has an active PDC mechanism. Look at all the apps that now have PDC, (SONAR 3.11, ACID 4f, Vegas 5a, Samplitude 7.22, Cubase SX2, Nuendo 2), they all exhibit "gapping" to some degree. Other apps, like Pro Tools, Logic & Live don't have full auto PDC, but can claim to be "gapless". That is just the nature of the beast. Personally, I don't mind the brief "gapping", as long as I know that during playback, whenever, wherever, (track insert, aux bus or main), I insert a plugin (effect or softsynth), my project will always stay in sample accurate sync, at all times. Of course, you can see the dilemma for Ableton, having PDC and it's inherent gapping would not be favorable for an app that is geared toward live use. For it's niche, it probably does not need it anyway, as long as you don't use too many real-time effects, then you'll be wondering why your tracks are seemingly out of sync :) But, it is something to be aware of, when comparing to other host apps that do have full auto PDC. Billy Buck
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: Spirit Date:6/10/2004 5:31:27 AM OK, I'm coming down now. Played some more with the Ableton 3 demo - lots of fun - and things happen that just would never fall out of Acid. But damn I miss the chopper and arranging things in Ableton in those little scenes while very fast, is somehow not as flexible as a full track - suppose I just need to get into Arrange view. I dunno. I've got a really good price for Ableton 3 from a local shop... When the hell are we going to get a sniff of AcidPro5 ? It has been two years between drinks after all....
Subject:RE: AP5 is going to have to be good to compete with this.... Reply by: DKeenum Date:6/10/2004 6:43:21 AM You get some and you loose some... and you learn a new app. I'd have to say that the auto compensation means a lot to me.

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