Subject:Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Posted by: herrdue

Date:5/27/2004 6:28:53 AM

Reading this group recently, a lightbulb came on for me: somebody eluded to the fact that effects busses are a wonderful feature often overlooked. So I looked. When I read up on how to use these things, it seemed like a dream come true; run several tracks through one set of effects together, so you don't have to apply the effects to each track separately.

I often have a problem once I get to about 30 tracks of audio, in that everything starts to break up during playback (crappy factory sound card I suspect), especially if I start applying chained effects to each track. This means I typically save my project again with a new project name (leaving me with name1.acd.zip, name2.acd.zip, etc.) and merge all takes for each instrument into one track before apply effects. This leaves me with fewer tracks, and fewer effects being loaded into memory. But if I ever need to re-arrange a part of the song, that means I have to go back in time to an earlier version of my files, make the change, and then do all of that over again. Kills me.

The effects bus thing seemed like a possible solution,,,a way to get many tracks using the same collection of effects without having to apply them to individual tracks, thus also freeing me from having this multiple acd.zip file syndrome.

So I tried this and from what I can tell, the resulting playback seems muddy. By this I mean that the tracks seem to loose their punch. Yet if I use exactly the same effects strings on individual tracks, I retain the punch I was expecting to hear. Is this just my imagination? Is there some technical reason why running multiple tracks through the same effects bus might sonically reduce the punch of the music? If so, is there some kind of trick to remove the muddiness? If not, maybe I need to just go back and try this again.

Thanks for any advice you may have.

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: ATP

Date:5/27/2004 12:29:34 PM

funny you mention this, since i was thinking about this exact thing as well. i am pretty curious to hear how people implement their fx, the Bus way or the Track way.

it seems weird that the sound from Bus fx would be different from the Track fx. if you used the same plugins you should theoretically get the same sound. perhaps the plugin has trouble computing the fx for all the tracks at the same time?

i couldn't tell you if they sound differently on my rig, since i hardly use Bus fx. this is mainly because the fx i use most are filters, and each sample usually needs to be filtered differently. so it's no use assigning new fx buses for each track when you can do it directly on the track itself. same goes for delay fx, reverbs etc.

i can see where Bus fx have the advantage tho: 1 Bus fx takes a lot less resources than 12 Track fx. if you have an older pc/soundcard i suppose Bus fx are the way to go. fortunately mine can easily handle the amount of fx used, so at least i have a choice.

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/27/2004 12:56:42 PM

I use a combination of track and bus effects depending on the situation, but I haven't come across the problem you have using bus effects.

What effects are you using? Maybe I can try and repro...

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
mD's ACIDplanet Page
Guitars 4 Kids

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: Big_Faced_Boy

Date:5/29/2004 4:54:03 AM

With regard to your problem, I can't really help, but I thought I'd spend some time describing how the different fx uses work in ACID. Where I have added alternative names, (aux sends, channel inserts, buss/group inserts) these are the more common names used by engineers when referring to routing on a mixing desk.

There are three ways of using fx in ACID:

1. as track fx, (channel inserts) where the sound passes thru an effect chain prior to ACID's mixer receiving the signal. Imagine a guitar going thru an fx pedal before it gets to the amp.

2. as fx (aux) sends, where the dry/wet mix should (normally) be set to 100% wet. Aux sends do not effect the channels routed to them like inserts/track fx, they leave the original sample to play dry (post inserts) then return the effected sound onto a new group which defaults back to the mater buss. (I normally run fx returns back thru a group rather than leave them on the master).

3. on busses (buss inserts, group inserts), where the effect will work as an insert on a group of sounds. I only really use compressors and reverb (and sometimes filters) on busses... I set up busses, then assign tracks to the bus as groups, e.g drums (without cymbals), top end (cymbals), bass, synths, etc. all go into separate groups. I then use compressors (not always needed on all groups) on the groups to bind the sounds together and hold down the peaks. This helps to separate the sounds and deliver better clarity. Then I insert a parametric eq, multiband compressor and sometimes a reverb on the master buss. You could also use a buss to run the same fx on multiple tracks, instead of using track fx (inserts), but this isn't really what they're best used for.

On the subject of compressors, just be gentle. Keep your attack and release times short on tops and long (no more than 50ms attack/100 release generally) on bass. For mastering, keep the ratio well down (<2:1). If you find that one sound is causing a large amount of gain reduction, that sound probably just needs turning down or eqing. If you're getting constant gain reduction, raise the threshold until you see the comp return to zero frequently and remember that inaudible sub bass may cause your compressor to pump when you don't want it to.

It is also worth noting that you can automate buss inserts with an envelope on the master track. Press U to see the master track and insert fx automation envelopes as normal.


Hope this is helpful ;)

BFB

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:5/29/2004 6:06:45 AM

I was probably the one talking about using buses. I agree with Big_Faced_Boy on the correct usage. You should uses buses just like you would inserts, aux sends, and buses on a hardware mixing desk. You will still need to process individual tracks with FX as needed. Adding FX to a bus is a good way to give all of the tracks in a group the same room ambiance so that loops recorded in different studios can take on the same overall sound. I don’t know why identical FX would sound different on tracks than applied to a bus. This really should be if they are truly identical unless something like one track is causing a compressor to overcompensate/breath and then all tracks would be affected because now they’re all using the same compressor.

~jr

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:5/29/2004 8:15:47 AM

I've started using a couple of buses for general reverbs in order to cut down on processor load, and I've been very happy with the result. I agree that it has a unifing effect.

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: herrdue

Date:6/1/2004 2:49:16 PM

Thanks to everyone for their time and effort on this thread. After reading what was stated here, I went back and looked at my project a little bit closer. This was the 9th song I'd worked on in a row that was using similar instruments and effects. When I got to this song, though, I tried the bus effects instead of adding them to each track. It was then that I noticed everything was muddy. After reading some of your comments about how the bus should NOT be the culprit, I went back and added effects to each track, and listened to it that way. Sure enough, it was muddy too. I would not have believed it would be given that I'd had 9 songs under my belt without the "mud". But on this particular song, I have like 40 tracks compared to maybe 25 in the other songs. When I muted out a few layers of instrumentation, it was not nearly as muddy. Lessons learned. Sorry for the wild goose chase. Maybe this could be a lesson for someone else not to waste everyone else's time until you've trouble-shooted the hell out of your problem.

I do believe I'll continue using the Bus effects for tracks with similar effects needs, though, as it does seem like a great way to reduce memory overhead.

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/3/2004 4:59:35 AM

> Sorry for the wild goose chase

Hey, it’s no fun chasing the tame geese... they run too slow. ;-)

> Maybe this could be a lesson for someone else not to waste everyone else's time until you've trouble-shooted the hell out of your problem.

I disagree. Sometime you need a new set of eyes to view your problem and help you make the breakthrough to get you to the next level. You did the right thing. You should try and understand what’s going on to a point, but if it doesn’t make sense, come here and get a second opinion. We all get the to point where we can’t see what’s right in front of us some times. I’m glad you figured it out. We all learned something.

~jr

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: Big_Faced_Boy

Date:6/3/2004 11:20:11 AM

The "muddy"sound you're getting is probably the result of lack of, or poor eq. Unless you're using a subwoofer or full-range monitor, you'll probably not be hearing much below 70Hz. The result is far too much going in in the bottom end, which will give a muddy sound. To quickly confirm this, try running a hi-pass filter at abou 100Hz on your master buss (Sony Resonant Filter set to 100Hz, Hi-pass, 0% res, 100% mix should do this just fine) to completely remove any low frequencies. Does it sound less muddy (if a little tinny)? I thought so... Of course, you'll not want your track to have no bottom end, so go and take low frequencies off each of the tracks that really doesn't need it, snares, hihats, pads, vocals, guitars, etc, really don't need much below 80-100Hz. Common lumps in basslines are at 250 Hz, 120Hz, 80Hz and 40Hz, so try applying a narrow (no more than 1 octave) band notch in your bass's track eq in these areas and decrease the gain to get rid of flappy, farty sounds.

Naturally, many sounds all together in a common area will sound muddy, so try to keep your music minimal in this regard.

Of course, the secret is all in having a good setup. If you're in a bedroom, you'll hear things totally differently to how you'll hear them in a studio. This is partly to do with the money spent, but is more to do with how well the room is set up. Studios should be eqd to give a flat sound, whereas most people listen on a coloured speaker system with no attention to their master eq settings, so the room will create bass traps and other reflections.

Any questions, please ask!

BFB

Subject:RE: Bus vs. Individual Track Effects

Reply by: chaircrusher

Date:6/4/2004 9:14:30 PM

I never have a problem with 'muddy' sound, so I suspect the problem is in how you're using effccts and busses.

Each Bus is a sub-mix, and everything passing through it is going to interact. If you jam a bunch of dissimilar sounds through a bus, and run them through an effect chain, they will get all mashed up.

I tend to bus together by categories -- percussion, bass, vocals, synths, etc, and then apply the effects that make sense for that bus. I also make sure that the busses don't clip.

I like using a few send busses for effects as well, but you can't send to a effect buss from a VST instrument, or a group bus, so they're not so great if you do a lot of work grouping tracks together.

In general, I'm not a big fan of Acid's summing busses. If you run individual outs to a decent analog mixer, it will sound way better. Even my aging Yamaha Promix 01 sounds better as a mixer than Acid.