Does DVDA recognize Procoder Express output?

jetdv wrote on 4/13/2004, 8:53 AM

DVDA currently does not recognize elementary streams.

prairiedogpics wrote on 4/13/2004, 9:02 AM

Hi Edward,
Yes, I know DVDA doesn't recognize elementary streams. I want to know if anybody out there currently uses Procoder Express to render program streams (non-elementary) for use in DVDA. (matched up to .ac3 files rendered from Vegas.

JSWTS wrote on 4/13/2004, 12:53 PM

What do you mean by 'matched up to ac3 files rendered from Vegas'? I use Procoder (full version) all the time and haven't had a problem. Maybe you can outline the steps and files you are creating and then importing into DVD-A. Procoder Express doesn't create ac3 files, so you must be using a wav stream from Procoder or extracting the mp2 audio file. What are you using for your mpeg program stream? I'm sorry for the rambling, but there are some gaps in your info. If you are outputting to elementary stream (which would make sense because it sounds like you are converting the wave audio to ac3), then you would need to change your video stream to a program stream. If you are outputting to an mpg program stream with Procoder E., then what are the video and audio settings you are using?

Jim

jetdv wrote on 4/13/2004, 12:58 PM

Why not use ProCoder to output to straight MPG2 WITH audio. Then after adding to DVDA, change the audio to the AC3 file you output from Vegas.

prairiedogpics wrote on 4/13/2004, 7:11 PM

I guess I haven't been clear. Let me explain further.
First: Vegas 5 is coming out (I have Vegas 4). I'm not a pro user, so I don't know if the cash outlay will be worth it (for me, personally). BUT, I know newer standalone encoders, like Procoder Express, render BETTER quality mpeg2 files than the current version of Vegas 4 (I've tested them.). I want that benefit (and would get it for only $60 for Procoder Express). With that said, I want to make sure Procoder Express does what I want it to do.
So, I can use Satish's plugin to frameserve to Procoder Express and render "directly" from the Vegas timeline. I don't need to render the audio in Procoder Express, because Vegas 4 will render the audio (separately) as an .ac3 file. Therefore, I all I want Procoder Express to do is render a (video only) MPEG2 file. Just like the DVDA NTSC MPEG2 FOR DVDA choice inside Vegas 4. NOT an elementary stream, because that involves a further step of muxing the elementary stream with a (dummy) audio file. If, as Ed suggested, I just include the audio anyway in the render and then change it to the .ac3 file in DVDA, I believe I'll be using up valuable space on the DVD-R.

To restate the question again: Does anyone have experience rendering an MPEG2 video only (no audio), non-elementary stream, in Procoder Express, that does NOT need to be muxed. (JUST LIKE THE "DVD NTSC for DVDA" choice in Vegas). Remember, DVDA does not recognize elementary streams and that's my authoring software.

Dan

jetdv wrote on 4/13/2004, 8:59 PM

If, as Ed suggested, I just include the audio anyway in the render and then change it to the .ac3 file in DVDA, I believe I'll be using up valuable space on the DVD-R.

No you would not be using any extra space. The audio in the MPG file will simply be ignored and the AC3 audio will be used.

You really need to wait to see the specs of Vegas 5 and DVDA 2 before expecting a real answer to this question.

prairiedogpics wrote on 4/14/2004, 5:41 AM

Agreed, Ed! The specs posted over on the Vegas forum this morning makes me think I'm gonna have to cough up the money for Vegas 5 + DVDA 2.
Thanks for the input.

Dan

AudioIvan wrote on 4/14/2004, 10:02 AM

As I stated in my previous posts I USE Canopus ProCoder Express.
For use with DVD-A always render to program video, jetdv explained that DVD-A DOES NOT SUPPORT ELEMENTARY STREAMS.
So far no probs & very happy with Canopus ProCoder Express.
Also if you want PRO quality(and have the money to spend) get
Canopus Procoder v.2.0 (released today) $500.00, i know it's a bit too much but you get what you pay for,have look @ Canopus USA.
With Canopus ProCoder Express if you render to program video you'll have no probs in DVD-A.In Config Advanced Settings you can change the rendering to video only by changing it to "audio -->don't use"
It is been discused over & over on other forums and proved that Canopus Encoders DO BETTER job on interlaced sources than any other encoder on the market(this includes CCE as well), so for DV-AVI bff --> Canopus, if you have progressive cam go CCE.
But....
Then again, every encoder does different encoding on different source....and so on and on....

AudioIvan

prairiedogpics wrote on 4/15/2004, 11:05 AM

"With Canopus ProCoder Express if you render to program video you'll have no probs in DVD-A.In Config Advanced Settings you can change the rendering to video only by changing it to "audio -->don't use" "

This is all I wanted to know. Man, sure took a lot of typing to get my question across...

Thanks, AudioIvan.

Dan

AudioIvan wrote on 4/16/2004, 12:41 AM

No probs, let me know how do you like the output from the Canopus Procoder Express.
Also Two bitrates to be assigned max & avg, the bottom one is max set it to 9000 and the top one avg set it to suit your needs, this is the bitrate that you should be playing with to get specified filesize for your encodings.

AudioIvan

farss wrote on 4/16/2004, 4:22 AM

I'd recommend a littel caution setting max bitrate to 9Mbits. The DVD spec calls for a maximum total bitrate of 10.8 so in theory at 9 + 1.8 for PCM audio you SHOULD be safe. Unfortunatley it would seem not all DVD players meet the spec or maybe its the combination of using +/-R media and tired lasers but either way some players seem to start skipping or actually play back a worse picture than if you set the bitrate a little lower,sa y 8.0 Mbits/sec.
I suspect that's the reason the template sets it to 8.0 MBits / sec.
Of course of the DVDs are only for your own use and your box plays them fine then enjoy the extra quality, if you're going to have your stuff played on lots of different players I'd be a little more cautious.

AudioIvan wrote on 4/16/2004, 5:24 AM

"The DVD spec calls for a maximum total bitrate of 10.8" --> WRONG !!!
DVD specs = max bitrate including MLP,DTS,PCM,LPCM,DD5.1,MP2 audio are 9.8Mbit !!! The audio bitrate it's NOT calculated the same for 2.0, 5.0, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 10,2 ....
There are encoders out there that support encoding up to 15Mbit (which is not used for DVD-Video) but that is not the case here.
It's been duscused here that "high" 9000Mbit max bitrate would result in unplayable disk in some elcheapo DVD Players.
PC wise the disks are playable and that is why you pay more for high quality DVD (standalone) Players like Denon....
Because the actual decoding (the video and audio) is software based algoritam-->chipset hardware final solution.
This also applies to video audio sync on a DVD-Video Disk.
I ALWAYS encode @ min~1000, avg~xxxx, max~9000 + 5.1 Dolby (Ambisonic) and I've never had any unplayable disk so far, tested and confirmed on various DVD-Players, HQ & ElCheapos.

"some players seem to start skipping or actually play back a worse picture than if you set the bitrate a little lower"

This is not related to bitrate, but the quality of the hardware decoder,media(batch spindle, single disk, DVD-R/+R, (DVD-RW, DVD+RW are known to cause problems with some players),cheap brands), spin mechanism, disk balance .....

Hope this helps

AudioIvan

Hunter wrote on 4/16/2004, 9:37 AM

Maybe you should ask the question Here

Hitime wrote on 4/19/2004, 8:20 AM

Here is my experience. It is for PAL not NTSC. The projects I have done using Edius 2 and its version of procoder express ( claimed to be the full version) have not been fully recognised with DVDA 1. The consistant problem I am getting is that (on most players ) when starting at chapter points other than the first they do not start properly. What happens is set top box dependant -- may be break up -- may be loss of sound -- may be freezing..

The same m2p file functions properly in DVD WS so it appears not to be an encoding error.

I used to use DVDA 1 with ver 1.5 of Edius with no probs but this did not use Procoder.

It could be a PAL/NTSC thing I suppose but I doubt it

hope this helps

jetdv wrote on 4/19/2004, 9:31 AM

DVDA 2 DOES recognize elementary streams!

Hitime wrote on 4/20/2004, 1:15 AM

Have you tried procoder express with elemantary streams in DVDA 2?

I have just made an "act of faith" with Sony by upgrading to v5/v2 on the basis that this would solve the problem. Hope for better outcome than "acts of faith" with polititians.

The DVDA 1 manual warns against using AC3 with PAL so I have avoided using it. However this seems to limit me to videos of less than 1.75hrs because of uncompressed sound that DVDA1 uses. Is this corrected in v2?

SonySDB wrote on 4/20/2004, 5:08 AM

The vast majority of PAL players will decode AC3. It is only a soft warning.

srymm wrote on 4/20/2004, 10:20 AM

I have tried importing a Procoder Express .m2v file into DVDA2 and it does not work correctlu. The file looks like letterbox format in DVDA2 (much wider and less height) even though the file is a stamdard 720x480 file. If a encode it as a .m2p file, DVDA2 worls properly. Disappointing...

Scott

SonySDB wrote on 4/20/2004, 11:15 AM

Are you sure you didn't encode the .m2v with an aspect ratio of 16:9? Both DVD-compliant 16:9 and 4:3 files both use a resolution of 720x480.

1. Launch DVDA2
2. Open or make project that contains the .m2v
3. File | Optimize DVD...
4. Click on the file in the list-view on the left-hand side.
5. On the right, check if the video is compliant. If so, check what the aspect ratio is.

Also, have you tried playing the .m2v in another application (e.g. Windows Media Player)?

srymm wrote on 4/20/2004, 2:30 PM

Yes, the file plays fine ig WMP and other media players.

In the Optimize DVD:

Compliance: Yes
Aspect Ratio: 4:3
Resolution: 720x480

Here is the Properties of the file:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General
Type: MainConcept MPEG-2

Streams
Video: 01:30:27.689, 29.970 fps progressive, 720x480x32, MPEG-1

Plug-In
Name: mcplug.dll
Folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Shared Plug-Ins\FileFormats\MCMPEG
Version: Version 2.0 (Build 229)
Company: Sony Pictures Digital Inc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your help...

Scott

srymm wrote on 4/20/2004, 3:35 PM

Ok, after investifating this further, there is no problem after all. I am really sorry for blaming DVDA2. The error occurs if you use Vegas 4.0 -> Plugin-Pack FrameServer->Procoder Express. The resultbng .m2v files are not handled correctly in DVDA2. However, using Premiere Pro->Procoder Express yields .m2v files that work correctly.

Scott

srymm wrote on 4/22/2004, 6:40 AM

I'm really confused now. I re-ran my tests and the Procoder Express .m2v files are all squished vertically. Their .m2p counterparts are all fine. This is in both the Premiere and Vegas cases. I don't know whar is going on. Maybe there is a problem somewgere in DVDA2 or a setting in Procoder Express render options.

Scott

Hitime wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:13 AM

Firstly may I say how nice it is to hear from Sony. My experience of talking many parts of thieir empire has been DREADFUL. This was a real concern to me when I heard of the Sony buyout. Dont want to labour the point further than saying I have stopped buying Viao laptops as a result.

I now have dvda 2 and re-run one of the offending files which now works fine when the audio is recoded as stereo ac3 --- which is quite slow but acceptable.

Got a couple of exception errors though even though a bulk standard m/c. Hope they go away otherwise you will be hearing from me in this forum!

I have noticed that when resetting project parameters (NTSC to PAL and sound to ac3) that optimize seems not to recognise that the .m2p files do not any longer need to be recompressed. I needed to come out of DVDA 2 after resetting and remake the project to fix this.