Subject:Simple Question - Does Sound Forge have a Multitrack feature?

Posted by: Cunhambebe

Date:4/13/2004 9:39:34 PM

Can I open a wav or even an ac-3 file with Sound Forge with multitrack featuref? I mean one track for the voice, the other for audio effects and so on? I've heard Adobe Audition can do that, since you provide a compatible multitrack sound card. Help please!

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/14/2004 1:27:42 AM

Sound Forge is not a multitrack program. Yes, you can open a Wave file. For multitracking check out Vegas. You can't open an AC-3 file in Vegas or Audition.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Cunhambebe

Date:4/14/2004 1:38:32 PM

You know somwething rednroll, I guess u did not understand my question. I don't wanna open various tracks at the same time. What I'd like to do is to open a single track and strip it in many tracks, ig, voice, drums, etc..Got it??

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:4/14/2004 1:42:04 PM

Nothing can do that.

MJ

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: vanblah

Date:4/14/2004 1:56:27 PM

That's not such a simple question.

Multitrack feature implies that you are looking for a software app that will allow recording of multiple tracks. You need Vegas for that (from Sony anyway).

What you are asking is similar to the "can I remove vocals" question. You want to take an already mixed audio file and extract the various instrumentation to discrete tracks. The answer is an emphatic "no you can't do that."

You didn't have to be so snide in your second post. The answer that rednroll gave you was as legitimate as it gets based on what you were asking in your first post.

Now we'll have to ask rednroll to kindly step away from the flamethrower :)

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: kbruff

Date:4/14/2004 1:59:06 PM

Nothing can do that -- and since you asked that, you should know that files are condensed into two channel stereo files and then ask your self, how could it be possible to go to the original
multi track file(s).

If you are a ware of Fourier Analysis, then you would realize that signal decomposition has nothing to do with tracks and more to do frequency components.

Therefore your desire is a long shot.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Cunhambebe

Date:4/14/2004 2:28:43 PM

If my question was ofensive, I apologize. In fact, I have a 2 minute audio track from a movie (AC-3) that I've already converted (or rendered) as a wav file. OK. It's a track made up of music and dinosaur sound effects. I was just planning to erase the music and leave the sound effects untouched. Can someone help me with that please?
Thanks for the valuable help. ;)

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:4/14/2004 2:47:26 PM

Sorry but you can't. Unless the dinosaur sounds occur while no music is playing so you could C & P them to new files this is impossible.

While you play the file in Sound Forge > Tools > Spectrum Analyzer, view all that's going on across all frequencies while the dinosaur sounds occur. There is NO way to separate them.

Here's favorite analogies;

It would be like getting the sand out of concrete, the eggs out of a loaf of bread or the sperm from the egg of an 18 year old.

MJ

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Cunhambebe

Date:4/14/2004 3:00:30 PM

;) ok...maybe there can be a way of doing that.........maybe.....never is such a word I don't have in my dictionary :)

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:4/14/2004 4:31:55 PM

All the king's horses and all the kings men...

MJ

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: ibliss

Date:4/14/2004 4:35:25 PM

For what it's worth, Wavelab 5 (soon to be released) supports multichannel audio formats - up to 8 chans. Check out this press release:

Wavelab 5

Sound like the sort of thing that would have made me upgrade from SF 6 to 7; hopefully the Sony boys & girls have multichan in mind for SF.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/14/2004 4:37:32 PM

I didn't take any offense to his reply, he's right I didn't fully understand his question. I like MJ's analogy for this, another of my favorites is, let's say you have a can of mixed black paint, which is a mixture of many colors. Try removing just the white part out. That's pretty much what you're asking and no software is available to do this. If there was, you would see a lot of artists upset because now it's possible for people to steal a performance and you'ld start to hear a lot of hip hop tracks with Eddie Van Halen's and Jimmy Page's guitar parts in it. Now, not only would that be stealing, but sacraligous at the same time.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Cunhambebe

Date:4/14/2004 6:55:46 PM

Thanks everybody, for taking time to respond. Very special thanks to ibliss...:)
About Rednroll remark on "impossible things": don't forget that we're talking about software and computers. Some years ago NLE was something unthinkable as well as audio editing on a platform as windows. Now, even making dvd backups is something an 8 year old child would probably do. Let's wait and see. I'm sure this possibility will be available for certain (if it hasn't already been)...and we're not talking about stealing anything. This is purely a matter of technology. Nothing more, nothing less. That's it.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/14/2004 7:13:25 PM

Sorry, on this one I have to disagree. This is a matter of physics, and until someone is able to break the laws of physics, this just won't be possible. We are already able to bend the laws and use physics a little to accomplish similar results, but not quite what you're asking for.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:4/14/2004 7:20:08 PM

After you spend $700 on Wavelab and find out what you have been told is true, please post back will you please?

Actually if what you want to do were possible, and you don't believe that of course, it is stealing. If I play a part on a CD etc. and someone was able to grab my part and use it on their CD etc. for the price of software which is not possible at this time fortunately, they'd be looking at a law suite faster than that they could ejaculate.

Karaoke guys and DJs etc. have been bootlegging software and posting this type of question here and at many other forums looking to do exactly what you want to do.

If this was possible without copyright repercussions, someone would already be a billionaire and it would be news you couldn't ignore across any search engine or newspaper.

I'm not accusing you of bootlegging SF personally, just trying to get you to understand that audio is not video in terms of how you can manipulate it. The ear is much more difficult to fool than the eye.

Hey don't believe us, come back and tell us how. I'm always game for knowledge.

MJ

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: larryo

Date:4/15/2004 5:05:53 AM

I have these conjoined twins, two bodies sharing one head...Doctors all say there's nothing they can do, but someday I'm going to find a way to separate them...

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: captn_spalding

Date:4/15/2004 5:23:43 AM

Cunhambebe: I added some numbers togther and got 1463. What were those numbers? That is what you are asking to be done. This isn't "purely a matter of technology" . It's a matter of mathematics. There are many non-revrsable functions in mathematics. A simple example is the absolute value function (usually desiganted by two vertical lines "|X|") The absolute value of minus 3 ( |-3| ) is 3 and the absolute value of plus 3 ( |+3| ) is also 3 . So even though I give you 3 and the information that I used the Absolute Value function, you still cant get back to the original value. Some quality of the original value was lost when the function was applied. No hardware, software, or technology will ever get you back to the original value. Hope this helps.

..spalding

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: vanblah

Date:4/15/2004 8:19:00 AM

captn, that's probably the best analogy to why it's not possible to extract discrete tracks from a mixed-down multitrack audio file yet.

(However, 3(|-3|) = 9 not 3). You could get some of the information if I said 9=x(|x|), but parts would be missing (the sign) and you've got a 50% chance of being correct in this case. Imagine how difficult it would be with even more complex numbers.

It's just an analogy though ... it may in fact be possible one day to extract discrete tracks from a mixed-down multitrack file. Physics seems to dictate otherwise at the present time.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: larryo

Date:4/15/2004 9:28:55 AM

If someday it becomes possible to sort out individual attributes within a mixed audio recording, I wonder how this marvel in audio recording would be applied by the end user. While it would be nifty to be able to take let's say a mono recording of a bunch of girl scouts singing britney songs, divide the voices up and apply auto tune to the bad ones, my guess the technology would be applied in a much more meaningful manner...like Kareoke guitar fests where 14 year olds could be the bomb by playing in their favorite band..

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: captn_spalding

Date:4/15/2004 10:34:55 AM

I was trying to make the concept clear by sateing it in words and (in a parenthetical phrase) symbolically. Thus I said "absolute value of -3" followed by the symbols |-3|. I can see how my quickly written statement could be mis interpreted.

I beg to differ that it may one day be possible to extact the discrete tracks. Whether we are speaking of an analog mixer or a digital mixer, the final product is still a sum. Lets look at a simple two track mixer. The sum function takes a set of size N duples and returns a set of values of size < N . For example if you have a set that contains (0,1,2,3) it generates a set of 10 duples ( 0,0; 0,1; 0,2; 0,3; 1,1; 1,2; 1,3; 2,2; 2,3; 3,3) if you generate the sum of those duples you get a set of size 7 (0,1,2,3,4,5,6). Given the 3 from the answer set you can't determine which duple generated it. If your mixing eight tracks ( a set of octets, instead of duples) and the situation gets a lot worse!

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: vanblah

Date:4/15/2004 11:37:26 AM

Sorry about that. I see what you were trying to say now.

I wasn't really being serious about being able to extract discrete tracks. I was saying that anything is possible ... but physics says otherwise at the moment. We'll probably break the "faster than light" rule before the "extracting vocals from a mix" rule.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:4/15/2004 11:38:44 AM

I think it will be possible ... someday. I may not expect to live to see it, but it will happen. Our brains are already capable of this feat. Sit back, close your eyes, and listen to your favorite song. If you concentrate on a specific part you can hear it almost to the exclusion of the rest of the music. Ask any proud parent who attends their youngster's first choral concert and they'll tell you they heard their own child clearly above everyone else. Now, true, the brain is fantastically more powerful and faster than any computer technology we have today, but computers are catching up. We already have electronic vision systems that can detect patterns and details buried in an image and separate them out. It's only a matter of time before software engineers get a handle on doing the same thing with audio.

Hey, in a small way, we already have it! Consider SONY's Noise Reduction plug in. It's capable of finding background noise that is more than trivial (more complex than a single repeating pattern) and diminishing it. It's an amazing start on the process already.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: captn_spalding

Date:4/15/2004 4:02:53 PM

Having raised a violinist and a double bassist - I totlally agree with you. And Noise reduction is wonderful, I use it all the time. AHHH, but in both cases i have either specific or general information as to what i'm trying to isolate or remove. (That is to say, I have some information as to the values that went into the function initially) I'm remided of some recordings of Caruso that were released several decades ago. I can't remember the process name., but in brief they decided that Jusi Bjoerling (the great swedish tenor) sounded most like Caruso. So they used Jusi's voice as the basis for enhancing Enrico's old accoustic recordings. (Not very sucessfully in my mind). So, I guess if you had a recording of Springsteens voice singing "Darkenss at the Edge of Town" you could use it to remove the vocal from the recording with the E street Band. But all of this is different from a general solution to unmixing a multi-track recording. Mathematically its like trisecting an angle. Its possible for a 90 degree angle, but not possible in the general case.

...spalding

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: moshede

Date:4/16/2004 3:08:06 PM

so...what is the easiest way to erase vocal from 2ch song ?

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:4/16/2004 3:22:53 PM

Read #6 here;

Sony FAQs

MJ

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:4/17/2004 5:33:52 AM

There is a big big big difference between "mathematically impossible" and "close enough to be useful". Heck, i can trisect an angle well enough for most purposes by eyeball and drawing the lines in by hand. If i'm cutting up the last part of the cake to give three people equal shares then i'm close enough to be useful. No one sweats over the mathematical impossibilty of it all; they just eat it and be happy.

For that matter, trisecting an angle is only impossible when you restrict yourself to Euclidian tools. Give a 4th grader a protractor and they can do the job with ease! As our tools progress and we learn to set reasonable goals, we'll achieve this task yet.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: captn_spalding

Date:4/17/2004 6:29:20 AM

Ahhhh this takes me back to those wonderfull evenings spent arguing with my engineer friends. Having spent my academic years in Topology and non-Euclidian geometries I was trained a certain way as to when a problem was solved - a theorem proved. Of course you are absolutely right, because Audio Engineering is a real world profession. Approximations are acceptable. (Digital audio its self is an approximation) Thanks for bringing me back to reality (But I come only as a tourist)

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Jack_Bauer

Date:4/17/2004 10:23:27 PM

Yes Its impossible and all that. What they will probably do is simulate it. maybe they start with drums take what they can and fill in the spaces. It might be able to identifiy the guitar or whatever and then just make some type of duplicate without the rest. Mabey you're saying is it's impossible for the computer to recognize the drums from the bass. I realize it being impossible to separate a blended signal, obviously that won't happen unless you can get on the computer the song was made on, find the files and get out unnoticed with out setting off any alarms. And you can do that online but I'm saying its possible if the computer can recognize the different sounds... thats a snare, thats a piano c# blah blah and thats.... kljgh;ltgkjegkjeg;klk damn stupid program! Then just wait till it sounds real. People already said this sort of but I extracted the meaning out of their words and blended it with my thoughts to put hope into peoples minds. Then everybody will be extracting other peoples scratching and saying its their own instead of learning how to play it on their own guitar. Ya dig it. anyway you know why nobody gets mad when people steal someone elses scratching?..........Cuz EVERYBoDIEs Hypocrites.

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: larryo

Date:4/18/2004 6:46:49 AM

...exactly...

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: crumbar

Date:4/18/2004 5:15:27 PM

The only way I can see that it's possible (and there is no software to do it that I know of) is if the wave signature/form/shape of a particular and specific instrument or vocal is known, maybe an algorhytm could be developed to pick it out of a mix with reasonable accuracy. Then again, if one has access to those wave signatures, one probably has access to the original multi track recording making my theory moot... never mind...

Subject:RE: Simple Question - Does Sound Forge has a Multitrack feature?

Reply by: Cunhambebe

Date:4/18/2004 6:57:55 PM

Well, thanks to all who certainly took time to respond. I did not expect a panel of engineers around here....
For the ones who got angry or ofended with my post, I apologize. I didn't realize this discussion would take that long. For the others....we had fun hadn't we :)? And please, let's stop with all that math because I am a lawyer and definitely lawyers don't get along well with math ;)
Thanks to all! Let's wait for Vegas 5 and DVDA 2!