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Subject:Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Posted by: Spirit
Date:2/6/2004 11:04:32 PM
It's been a loooong time between updates. Ableton has matured, and matured again. Companies have been bought and sold. Continents have drifted, glaciers stampeded across the tundra. Now, where's AP5 ? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/7/2004 6:07:20 AM
I can generate controversy by myself then... "Oh shutup, SonyFo will release it when it's good and ready. I hope they take their time so it's not the bug-ridden box-of-pox that AP4a was." |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/7/2004 6:08:37 AM
What the hell would you know ? All I'm saying is that the rest of the market is moving fast and Acid is moving slow. AP4 felt more of an interim product, the step between the pure audio looping app of AP3 and something much more integrated and high-end which AP4 seemed to promise but not deliver. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: MyST
Date:2/7/2004 6:14:58 AM
"AP4 felt more of an interim product" I highly disagree! M |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: DKeenum
Date:2/7/2004 10:14:32 AM
I'm with m. I have found acid4 very usefull. I've begun questioning if I should expect acid to do all of the things I want - recording and midi editing specificly. Would acid be better left also to develop as a looping tool. I don't know. I should add that live has upped the ante for looping. I want to see how acid responds. Closest to a fight I can give you. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: marcarotsky
Date:2/7/2004 11:31:34 AM
I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP OUR EYE ON THE BALL HERE... acid was not and is not and probably never will be designed as an "all in one application" it was designed as a loop based music production system, not as a loop based music app, a midi editor, a sound editor, a sound bank synthesis program, a vst, vsti host. remember the days of hardware music production??? we had multi racks of components designed to do specific things...some better than others. an akai mpc2000 is a GREAT sound tool, a GREAT sequencer, it CAN do a little bit of midi editing, but it doesnt claim to be a midi editor. nobody ever wrote akai and wanted akai to become a better midi editor. it wasnt designed for that!!!!! now, i agree to a certain extent, acid DOES have a little "evolving with the times" responsibilities ahead of itself. but something we need to realize, is that A LOT of the things some of you want acid to become, is not just next to impossible, but it would make ACID no longer be ACID. if you are serious about music production, you need to realize that there is an investment to be made...now that the days of software have evolved to make life easier for us, it saves us ALL thousands upon thousands of dollars. to spend 300 for ACID pro, and maybe another 3-500 for another midi editor/sequencer, i dont think we should be complaining to much about that. compare spending a thousand dollars or 2 thousand dollars for a couple software programs, to spending close to 50 or 100 thousand dollars for a rack of hardware equipment!?!?!?!? which would you rather do?? i think some of you are getting spoiled with the ease and affordability of what software has become. and you want the easiest and cheapest solution. for anybody who is SERIOUS about music production, spending a thousand dollars or 2 is nothing, in fact its a dream come true!! i made 5 times that amount on my FIRST professional remix made with JUST acid pro!!!! so lets realize the TRUE power of what is in front of us. if you want more professional results, spend more $$!!!!!! if you dont want to spend more $$$ you arent serious about music production!!!! --marc |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: DKeenum
Date:2/7/2004 12:24:04 PM
I think I'm ariving at the same conclusion. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/7/2004 1:34:18 PM
Somebody is indeed bored. ;o) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:2/7/2004 2:56:33 PM
What's up everybody, Knowing the guys at Sony's Acid Team, I think we will see some very cool and much needed features that will keep Acid 5 the "King Of Loop" I beg all of you to voice your needs, and why! And not because Sonar or Cubase has this or that. George Ware |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/7/2004 7:08:18 PM
I don't expect AP5 to be an all-in-one solution and the chances of it happening are, i think, zero. It would take years to catch up in the midi area alone. All AP4 added was almost-usuable midi, VSTis and a whole lot of bugs. Not a great achievement for your only release in a year. Meanwhile look where Ableton has gone. There's been (I think) three updates while AP4 has just sat there. They seem to have some drive and enthusiasm and a great outpouring of ideas. They certainly have captured the market's attention. As for SonyFo, just loook at, for example, the woeful effects of AP. They're not even BPM-synced. *Freeware* effects have BPM sync. A little thing sure, but indicative of the general malaise. The many times I've suggested some action on this topic has not even got a reply. At the same time I adore Acid. It's my primary composition tool. It's fast, beautiful and easy to use. But it's now fallen behind. It's trading on it's name. And for those who say "fallen behind, what does that mean, it's still just as usuable as it ever was". Well yes, that's true, but declining popularity and an increasingly negative market image means less sales and a general spiral into fewer updates, fewer sales, fewer new features, and ultimately application death. I've no proof of any of this (of course!), they're just personal estimations based on comments around many audio forums. And lI'm so bored with the old "how much would equivalent hardware cost" line. That's irrelevant. Who cares how much hardware costs ? And anyway, the software may be cheap but you need a decent PC and soundcard to run it on. So, let's see what SonyFo can do. Let's have some advanced audio tools that will surprise the market, restore the reputation for innovation that Acid was built on, and make some of the other new audio handling apps turn white with fright. I'm hoping AP5 is not just going to play catch-up, it's going to blast the market open again. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: coolout
Date:2/8/2004 3:07:30 AM
Hey George, Are you beta testing for Sony? How can i be down? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:2/8/2004 6:51:00 AM
Hi Coolout, Yes I have beta tested for Sony. Have you every beta for anyone? If so, I would send an e-mail with the names and phone numbers of the companies, beta manager and product version you have tested to Sony's Tech. Support or Customer Serv. On the subject line put "Request for beta tester" Also add your system stats and how many years you have been using Acid. PLEASE only apply if you have the time and the effort to spend with Acid. If you do get on as a tester, be prepared to do allot of installs. bug hunting, and reports. It doesn't mean they will cater to your every Acid wish. Hope to see ya, George Ware |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: DKeenum
Date:2/8/2004 9:09:18 AM
George, How about some inside scoops? I'm sure the Sony guys would never take a look at this forum. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:2/8/2004 3:29:32 PM
"LOL" Eye-no-nothing! George Ware |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/8/2004 4:16:00 PM
I swear I just saw the SonyFo Development Glacier move forward about 2cm... |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: bitbopper
Date:2/9/2004 2:25:46 AM
Anyone of you compared the sound quality between Ableton live and Acid pro? Loads the same loops in both apps and compare. I like both apps a lot but somehow, I always come back to Acid for some reason. Maybe it's because I think the time stretching is of better quality and the editing is great. The interface is very simple to use. Some of my wishlists again and again: 1) One thing I'd love is to record the effects in realtime. I don't want this to be another ableton live but this is something really missing from acid. We got midi to do some jamming but now the effects need some realtime movin too! 2) More than one loop on a track if possible. 3) An improved midi editor. PLEASE allow us to edit velocities per notes. It's especially useful for drums. What I mean is that when you select a note on the piano roll, only thoses notes will be affected. A few apps don't do that and it sucks major. Editing the velocities themselves sucks also. It's like I need a microscope just to grab them. I don't want it to become a cubase/logic clone but there are a few things that could surely be improved in the midi departement. 4) a metronome! We have midi but we need at least a metronome with a count-in. (I know I can make one but it's much faster when it's built-in) Punch in and punch out also for recording! 5) Multiple input/output for recording or the vstis. 6) Eliza Dushku has an Acid Planet contest prize. That's all for my ramblings! |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/9/2004 5:43:26 AM
I just want the "super-chopper" as described in the AP5 suggestions thread... |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: zendar
Date:2/11/2004 8:37:31 AM
spirit, i'm with you in spirit acid has been stuck for ages. ableton have picked up the ball with aplomb. if sony fail to acknowledge that it will be the death of this app. acid doesn't need to do EVERYTHING (otherwise it will be the audio of equivalent of macromedia flash or microsoft word, which went from being fairly straightforward to unasable bloatware titanics in a matter of revisions) but it should AT LEAST steal back some of Live's ideas. Thats only fair as ACID 1 was a crazily innovative idea that EVERYONE copied. i still have a lot of time for sony/sofo/whatever, but the innovation seems to have completely disappeared. Wavelab added everything it needed waaay back, sound forge has struggled to match it since v5. vegas is great, but again struggles because sony won't push the envelope. maybe they just want to keep it all separate and simple, but c'mon its 2004. give me acid to vegas project integration AT LEAST, reverse (i mean wtf), the SUPER-CHOPPER (number one priority), vst fx (i mean wtf part 2) and all of the excellent ableton additions. and to the betatesters i'll buy you 3 beers each if you can test this on a real world system (yes i have intel and smooth running xp etc, but i guarantee acid 5.0a will crash like a bitch) thanks for listening |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: cyberbeat
Date:2/11/2004 9:40:15 AM
Acid is not a multi-track editor (such as Vegas), it is not a wave editor (such as Sound forge), it is not a CD burning package (such as CD Architect) and it is not a MIDI editor (such as Sonar). So, what is it? Well, according to Sony's marketing, it is a "loop-based production tool" which can be used for remixing and creating your own loop-based music. That's what Acid is and does extremely well. I think that Sonic Foundry lost sight of that fact in their attempt to please every one in the V4 release. Adding MIDI support, VSTI, rewire, sampling, etc only made Acid more buggy and unstable. I am still happily using V3 for creating remixes and simple music beds for production work. Isn't this how most people use the program? If so then doesn't it make sense to concentrate on the beatmapper, chopper and these types of features which make it easier to remix and create new loops based on existing material? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/11/2004 10:40:18 AM
This all seems so logical I hope SonyFo see it that way too. I was sooo excited by version 4, but only used it for a short time and returned to version 3. That's what I'm still using.... |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/11/2004 11:56:30 AM
"Adding MIDI support, VSTI, rewire, sampling, etc only made Acid more buggy and unstable. I am still happily using V3 for creating remixes and simple music beds for production work. Isn't this how most people use the program?" Using Pro 4.0 here. I use it like I always have—creating/mangling loops and other tasks like music beds, remixes, and the like. So, I, too, would like to see improvements in ACID Pro's elements like the Chopper. (I've noted my most requested ACID features in the official thread.) As I've said before (and I'll keep saying it until it's drilled in), anything introduced into ACID has to fit within ACID's already-existing paradigm, not the other way around. It should never really become a multitracker, just as Vegas should never become a looping tool. Spirit: Sonic Foundry no longer has any stake in the apps; they all belong to Sony now. You might as well refer to just Sony from now on. zendar: Ableton can make all the radical changes they want with Live and claim to be innovative; I'll be quite happy looping away here with ACID Pro. I also know someone over in the Sound Forge forum that would debate with you over which digital audio editor is better—Sound Forge or WaveLab. Please remember that your claim that WaveLab is better is a matter of personal opinion. Thanks, but I would have to refuse your offer of buying three beers, as I don't drink. I would happily take an offer of the guitar of my choice though. ;o) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: doctorfish
Date:2/11/2004 3:46:14 PM
I have ACID 4 working well on two computers. One of them is a damn fine computer in my studio, but at home I have a Pentium 3 650 MHz with a via chipset motherboard. ACID 4 gives me no problems on either. If you go to any audio app forum you'll find people that are having crash problems. Since pc configurations are too numerous to list it'll probably always be that way. If it's too boring around here, I suspect it's because many people have ACID 4 working well and we don't hear from them hear because they've no reason to come. Dave |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: bitbopper
Date:2/11/2004 4:23:12 PM
While I agree with you that SOFO should try to emphasis more on the loop production format, the features introduced in version 4 have been highly practical to me and to some others I assume. Not everybody works the same way and I think that Acid now allows a different approach for everyone. I like to make my own loops using a midi controller and it does work for me. It was an arse to work that way with version 3 but not anymore. cyberbeat wrote: "Acid is not a multi-track editor (such as Vegas), it is not a wave editor (such as Sound forge), it is not a CD burning package (such as CD Architect) and it is not a MIDI editor (such as Sonar). So, what is it? Well, according to Sony's marketing, it is a "loop-based production tool" which can be used for remixing and creating your own loop-based music. That's what Acid is and does extremely well. I think that Sonic Foundry lost sight of that fact in their attempt to please every one in the V4 release. Adding MIDI support, VSTI, rewire, sampling, etc only made Acid more buggy and unstable. I am still happily using V3 for creating remixes and simple music beds for production work. Isn't this how most people use the program? If so then doesn't it make sense to concentrate on the beatmapper, chopper and these types of features which make it easier to remix and create new loops based on existing material? " |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: zendar
Date:2/12/2004 8:26:10 AM
can someone just agree with me that seamless compatibility between acid and vegas projects would be a VERY GOOD THING INDEED?? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Zacchino
Date:2/12/2004 12:42:45 PM
I Disagree with Cyberbit. As you said, stick to Acid 3.0 if you're only a remixer, or if you just use this app as a loop based production utility. Acid must become an improved midi sequencer, and improved audio recording/sequencing workstation. Acid musn't go into th e "familly" or "amateur" categories. That's simply my opinion. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/12/2004 1:00:58 PM
I agree. But you've got that already. There's nothing stopping you from, say, rendering a track (or project) out from ACID and bringing it into Vegas (and vice versa), much like you can render out a project from ACID or Vegas and bring it into Sound Forge. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: tascolas
Date:2/13/2004 4:16:44 AM
Ok - time to speak ... I ve been usin Acid since day 1. In fact the combination of Acid and SoundForge turned me back to the computer world which i had forsaken if this means anything ... I am a professional arranger/remixer/producer and studio manager,and as such have enjoyed some chart success with remixes and collaborations in Greece where i recide and work... Over the years the Acid i used to have synced to my sequencer gradually evolved to a much more integrated application .I dont need anymore the sequencing app - i am happy sequencin in Acid .BUT... When u open the pandora's box it cant be closed. I can't believe that all the recent additions where introduced to just add ease of use or for cosmetic reasons .Sofo and now Sony took a look at the competition and made a leap forward .Acid4f has almost nothing to do with Acid 1.Acid 4 would be very well described as a workstation app and thats what it is and NOT a "loop-based production tool" as it's described. For all i know myself and loads of other pros (who i can name if needed) that use Acid and other apps all agree in one single point: Integration is the key for seemless workflow. Look at us: We all used to have tons of hardware gear only to exchange it for virtual gear. Why ? Because its just easier and faster and it fits in one box.Of course most of us have their beloved pieces of equipment but generally the virtual gear has replaced 50-75% of the real thing in most composing/recording/producing enviroments... Same goes for Acid .Integration 's the key. Its just a shame one has to go to another app in order to just record 4 or 6 audio tracks simultaneously.Its also a shame to introduce vstis without vst fx and having to buy and use something like VST adapter in order to use my cool vst fx. Its a shame to introduce cool automation without having a proper mixer interface to do the job efficiently. The bottom line is that less is more... And this DOES NOT mean acid should have less features.It only means that a guy who spends at least 8 hours a day workin and creating would love to use as less tools as possible . Acid should become a multitracker if u want my opinion and a real workstation with all the facilities that apply to such an application.We ve come a long way since day1 .Dont give up on us now. Ask around -see the truth for yourselves... |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Zacchino
Date:2/13/2004 5:12:20 AM
With Tascolas, we're at least 3 person to express the same opinion on this subject :). This doesn't mean that there's only 3 people in the world that have the same point of view ! |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: cyberbeat
Date:2/13/2004 8:48:55 AM
> Acid 4 would be very well described as a workstation app and thats what > it is and NOT a "loop-based production tool" Then why does Sony continue to market the product as a loop-based production app? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Zacchino
Date:2/13/2004 9:05:44 AM
>Then why does Sony continue to market the product >as a loop-based production app? Maybe because they want to keep their old customers |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/13/2004 11:43:45 AM
OK, let's be brutally honest here. Does anyone here think that if Sony somehow implemented something like true multitracking into ACID, it would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot from a business standpoint? I mean, what's Vegas? Chopped liver? If Sony implemented multitracking in ACID (something it was not designed to do in the first place), there'd be no need for Vegas. (Unless that's your point? Please tell me that's not so.) Sony would most definitely lose money on a flagship product. And why stop at multitracking? Why not go full tilt and include digital audio editing? CD mastering? Full-blown MIDI sequencing? How about making your breakfast? (I'm joking here, but I'm hoping you understand my point.) I would love to hear Peter's thoughts on this. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:2/13/2004 1:20:06 PM
"LOL">I would love to hear Peter's thoughts on this. Me too! George Ware |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Zacchino
Date:2/13/2004 3:00:51 PM
>I mean, what's Vegas? A video sequencer isn't it ? Have you ever seen music creators work on an Avid solution ? >And why stop at multitracking? Why not go full tilt and include digital audio >editing? CD mastering? Full-blown MIDI sequencing? CD Mastering can be done on SoundForge. And if all the Sony Media products are so complementary, why isn't there any "full-blown" midi sequencer ? >I would love to hear Peter's thoughts on this. Me too me too |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: MyST
Date:2/13/2004 4:49:33 PM
>I mean, what's Vegas? A video sequencer isn't it ? You mean you've never looked at what Vegas has on the audio side?? Too bad. M |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: cyberbeat
Date:2/13/2004 5:18:46 PM
According to Sony's web site, Vegas is the "complete multitrack audio and video editing system". So, apparently if you want to multi-track then you buy Vegas and if you want to create and produce loop-based music then you buy Acid. However, you can create loop-based music with Vegas but it wasn't designed for that purpose. You can also multi-track with Acid but it wasn't designed for that purpose. and... well it's all very confusing! |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: doctorfish
Date:2/13/2004 5:37:55 PM
That just shows you how SoFo shot themselves in the foot with that whole version 3 naming of Vegas Video and how it keeps coming back now to bite Sony on the ass. I come across the same thing in other forums. Great audio app, poor marketing. For those of us with Vegas and ACID, it's very easy to say keep ACID the way it is because the two apps do work well together. But for those who have ACID but not Vegas it's easy to understand their frustration since apps like Sonar can do multitracking, midi, and even looping. Given the talent of Sony's programmers, I would hope they could find a way to upgrade the recording capabilities of ACID while still not going too far into Vegas' territory. And even in the ACID 5 feature request thread SonicJG posted: "Feature 1: Recording improvements. I would like recording to be moved out of the modal record dialog, so that I can: record midi and audio at the same time, record more than one audio input at once, and have real-time effects monitoring." I know this is no guarantee but it seems even the Sony folks (well some at least) are looking to expand the recording potential of ACID. Dave |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Spirit
Date:2/13/2004 6:09:19 PM
There are certainly a lot of directions that AP5 could go. I just jope that Sony doesn't decide it's all too complex and give up, and just pile a whole lot of new "buy me" features on top of AP4. That'll be the death of it. It needs a real strategic direction imho. It's no longer enough to just say it's for "loop-based audio production" - there are many apps that do that now and most of them are cheaper than AP4 and include richer features. Consider apps like the new Intakt loop cruncher - it's speciased apps like these that take away from some of the Acid magic and demand more from AP. Likewise FL Studio has incredible automation, hosting, sequencing and slicing abilities for much less than AP4. Then there's OP5 and Traktion, and of course the AP4 nemesis Abelton. So where does that leave AP5 ? Just trading on the past glories ? And let's not hear the old "Acid wasn;t designed to do X". FL Studio started as a 16-step drum pattern generator and look where that's gone ! Rigid insistence on it's original function would have condemed it to oblivion long ago. Personally I'd like to AP5 as an ultimate audio app and forget midi altogether. But it's probably too late for that. My guess though is that all these decisions have already been made. It's going to be sooo interesting to see what Sony come up with... |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Zacchino
Date:2/14/2004 4:26:29 AM
Myst> You mean you've never looked at what Vegas has on the audio side?? Too bad Man, asking what Vegas is doesn't mean i didn't test it. I know what it can do (great multitracking) and what it can't (no midi/vsti). I was wondering why should a music composer buy a mostly video-based tool. Or why a music composer has to buy 2 sequencers to get one job done. Spirit> It's no longer enough to just say it's for "loop-based audio production" - there are many apps that do that now and most of them are cheaper than AP4 and include richer features. I strongly agree |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/14/2004 12:20:31 PM
"I was wondering why should a music composer buy a mostly video-based tool." Because it's not just a video-based tool? (You don't even have to touch video if you don't want to.) "Or why a music composer has to buy 2 sequencers to get one job done." Because one is loop-based and one is multitrack based? "It's no longer enough to just say it's for "loop-based audio production" - there are many apps that do that now and most of them are cheaper than AP4 and include richer features. I strongly agree." I'm sorry, I just don't agree. FruityLoops and Live may have evolved, but it begs the question: Are they functional? There's one thing ACID will probably always have over something like Fruity and Live: ACID is streamlined and functional but yet remains powerful, while Fruity and Live are mired down by their GUI's. (Live is especially guilty of its "pretty boy" GUI. Ableton should take a lesson that there are those of us who aren't attracted by bright and shiny objects.) There's a reason why ACID is like that: Because it can concentrate on a specific task. If you add more features like multitracking, you would complicate ACID's functionality even more. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: ATP
Date:2/14/2004 4:24:09 PM
---- If you add more features like multitracking, you would complicate ACID's functionality even more. ---- i have to agree with this, if only because ACID could never pull it off as efficiently as a real sequencer. i mean look at MIDI in ACID, and then look at MIDI in for example Cubase. no matter whether it fits a paradigm or not, fact remains MIDI handling in Cubase is more userfriendly and the timing is more tight than it is in ACID. this is why i hope Sony will focus on compatibility with other audio apps foremost. the optimal development (imho) would be that ACID 5 is able to slave sync to any host like Cubase, Logic et all, so that it doesn't have to worry about anything other than loop sequencing, for which it's the best program on the market hands down. of course, this means limiting the use of ACID to "merely" loop sequencing, and i can imagine that isn't such favorable development from a marketing point of view. after all, what new things can you keep on putting in ACID that will garuantee sales for each future revision, if not MIDI / VST and multitracking enhancements? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/14/2004 4:58:07 PM
One of the least known features in successive versions of ACID Pro is its quality in timestretching. (This is puzzling to me, because I would figure everyone would be aiming for audio quality.) I've noticed, for example, that the quality was better in ACID Pro 3.0 than it was in ACID Pro 2.0. And just when I thought it couldn't get better, it did get better in ACID Pro 4.0. (Not as drastic as going from 2.0 to 3.0, but still there and noticeable.) I would definitely pay for an upgrade if it meant the timestretching would be even better. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: zendar
Date:2/15/2004 12:22:23 PM
>There's nothing stopping you from, say, rendering a track (or project) out from ACID and bringing it into Vegas (and vice versa), much like you can render out a project from ACID or Vegas and bring it into Sound Forge. oh come on, i know that, i've had to do it many times. i want the two programs to share a file format so i don't have to render! can you not see how advantageous that would be??? |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: bitbopper
Date:2/16/2004 3:33:43 AM
MD wrote: "FruityLoops and Live may have evolved, but it begs the question: Are they functional? " They are functional. Lots of persons are using them already and swear by them. "There's a reason why ACID is like that: Because it can concentrate on a specific task. If you add more features like multitracking, you would complicate ACID's functionality even more. " Sounds to me like it's reached it's peak then. Apps need to evolve and Sofo needs to really come up with something refreshing or they will loose it. Ableton has copied some aspects of ACID obviously but they came with a live aspect of loop sequencing and it does work rather well. (the editing in ACID is much better though) ACID will need more than just a super chopper. This will make things easier but it's not something new or something that spawns a new creative way of working. It's just easier editing. I love ACID but seems to me like it's not the only master of it's domain now like it used to be. I just hope to see FX realtime automation in the future. Most of the apps can do that now (even fruityloops ;) ). |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: nikkeinomura
Date:2/16/2004 4:34:41 AM
I agree with Tascolas: Sony must improve the 4.0f features. I'm a professional user and i think that the killer feature of ACID is its "ready to play" approach. Even if (and it should become it) ACID becomes a complete audio/midi workstation, the only important thing that the developers should mantain is this great idea of "simple software to create great songs". The ways and the features that they'll take to improve the future versions of the soft are not really important if the company keep its strategy of easy soft. i'm also a Live user and if ableton will include midi features such as ACID in the next live 4.0 I think I'll no longer be using Acid in the future... ...the music software market is very competitive and Sony must grow up the capabilities of this sofware in a few time because Live is becoming every day more powerful (and also trendy!). RESPECT |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/16/2004 9:26:52 AM
IMHO, Fruity and Live are, to me, stripes of a different animal. For example, Live can be used as a live loop sequencer. ACID, like Sound Forge and Vegas, are media production tools not really meant for a live atmosphere. I believe that's intentional. They're not geared just towards musicians, but also towards those into audio and video production. Did anyone forget that there are those who expressly use the apps for that purpose? There are some that are not exactly musicians, nor would I want to force them to deal with an interface they're unfamiliar with. Thankfully, the developers made the latest features in ACID modular, so one doesn't have to deal with a certain aspect if one doesn't want to. If you never want to deal with MIDI in ACID, you don't have to, for example. But like I said before, they're only modular just because they have to fit within ACID's existing paradigm. So has ACID peaked? Again, in my opinion, I don't think so. There are some things I'd like to see in the next version—none dealing with making ACID something it's not really supposed to be—but rather some functionality improvements. I would love an Event Pool-type feature, much like Vegas' Media Pool feature. Instead of the entire file being available (like in Vegas' Media Pool), I'd like to select and copy a whole section of events in a project for use later. As it is, I have to copy a set of events and drag them to the extreme right if I intend to use them later; I end up with several groups of events. It would be much better if I could organize all this in one place. The Chopper could benefit from a similar approach, like a Chopper Pool that let's you construct and/or organize events you've copied from a sample in the Chopper. Just to be thorough, it's Sony that owns the software line now, not SoFo. We should all move on so there's no confusion later. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: tascolas
Date:2/16/2004 2:17:24 PM
Ok... When i said that Acid needs to multitrack i wasn't reffering to Vegas multitrack ... For your info i have also used Vegas since day 1 m8s. Its amazing that still i dont know sh*t about what it does with video...I use Vegas when i have to mix bands with nothing but real instruments but it doesnt come close to the functionality of Acid when it comes to composition. I mean my sustem is a pc based on 3 differnet raid partitions 2run raid 0 and one big runs raid5. I can multitrack with any program even if it ''doesnt fit the paradigm''. In fact i can run 50 stereo 24bit beatmapped tracks in Acid4 Pro without problems plus loads of plugs and vstis. When i say it needs to be mutitrack this means it needs to be able to RECORD multitrack . To everyone who claims AP4 is the ''loop based production tool '' i think they need to wake up .I know Sony claims that too .Heehehee. Its funny how sometimes ppl who ve got nothing to do with music like lawyers, financial and marketing advisors and managers rule the music biz. And i ask u : How the funk do u call an application that records audio and midi,also step midi ,plays multitrack audio and midi through multiple outputs and mixer channels,has advanced cut & paste functionality also advanced stretching algorithms ,implements audio & midi editing ,ASIO driver support,audio and midi automation, extensive vsti support , dx fx , video scoring,5.1 surround mixing,rewire support,even real audio export ?? A loop based production tool? If i hadnt used any software before i'd say this sounds like an add for Cubase-lol. And this is where the fun beggins... Why the hell implement features like OPT and mLan support ? In every thinking person's mind ,this could mean that old SOFO was looking at a major midi upgrade and its only logical as both these protocols are brand new and still not many ppl even know about them... I ll ask again: A loop based production tool? G E T R E A L ... It was really funky sayin we have a loopbased sequencer in 1999 where some peeps didnt even know what a loop was in the 1st place... Well ... Its not as funky now... Acid has grown from a '' just-put-the-loop-in-and-i'll-stretch-it '' tool to a full fledged sequencer/workstation. We the users have grown from using outboard synths and sequencers synced with Acid and some other audio multitrack app or machine to just use Acid because now it does most things quite good. Bottomline?... GIVE US PROGRESS. Proper multitrack recording - proper midi/sysex editing, VST FX, Proper MIXER. END OF STORY.Oh... And if it has a coffee makin feature make sure its written in c++ . CHEERS - LUV,PEACE and UNITY to all ... |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: DJ_Don
Date:2/16/2004 4:06:14 PM
Okay, I've said it before and I'll say it again--there is NO REASON to hold back the features in Acid Pro when they come out with 5.0! I agree with tascolas--there are WAY too many features already in Acid to simply call it a "loop-based" app only. But here's the thing: When I bought 2.0 a few years ago, I installed the software on my computer, put in one of the loop CD's that came with it (which I've never used since--I make all my own loops, thankyou) into my cdrom drive, dragged a few loops from the media pool into the main work area, painted them across the screen, hit play, and my jaw hit the floor. I couldn't BELIEVE how that software allowed you to line up loops like that and make music. Now then, if I were coming into this program for the first time today, guess what? I could STILL do the exact same thing as I did in 2.0, and have the basics of the software down within the first hour. Then later on I could get into the MIDI sequencing, Chopper Functions, Beatmapper, etc, and build my knowledge of the software based off the same basic premise, which is dragging files and painting them across the screen. I HIGHLY doubt that Sony will change that in 5.0, even if they add better effects, better MIDI implementation, better Chopper functions, and anything else I hope they add. I love how I can right click on a track and edit it in Sound Forge and it saves things quite nicely. I would LOVE to be able to do that with a whole project into Vegas to do what Vegas does best, which they may do in 5.0 (fingers crossed). Make the songs in Acid and Vegas, mix down the track and polish it in Sound Forge, and then put your completed tracks onto a CD in CD Architect. Is this company cool, or what??!! If anyone is worried about too many features in Acid because it might be too complicated, either stop worrying, or don't use the Pro version. The main downside to a bunch of new features in 5.0 would be if the program is unstable. IMHO, the current version of Acid is too buggy, so 5.0 MUST be, above all else, solid as a rock (again, fingers crossed). So stop thinking of what Acid IS, and start thinking of what Acid can DO for your music. With that in mind, the sky should be the limit, when it comes to features. Thanks for reading (sorry so long), and here's to counting the days to 5.0! Peace. |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: zendar
Date:2/17/2004 3:42:38 AM
yessss!!!! out come the progressive thinkers! more!!!! SONY pls take all this on board and have a beta ready for me by 5pm thx |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: bitbopper
Date:2/17/2004 4:59:31 AM
Yo! md wrote: "For example, Live can be used as a live loop sequencer. ACID, like Sound Forge and Vegas, are media production tools not really meant for a live atmosphere. I believe that's intentional. " Yes true but thinking that way means to limit it somehow. I don't think it will go the live way but with the new midi recording, it's already a step in that way. Just add the live automation of effects is all I need. If I remember good from a response I got from one of the Sonic guys, this will come eventually. "Did anyone forget that there are those who expressly use the apps for that purpose? There are some that are not exactly musicians, nor would I want to force them to deal with an interface they're unfamiliar with." Yes I'm aware of that. I think though that the new features can benefit none musicians too. Midi is not stricltly for musicians only. I'm a musician but I sometimes do tunes without ever playing a note. Midi is old and all but you can't simply get away from it, it's always there somewhere and always has it's uses. "Instead of the entire file being available (like in Vegas' Media Pool), I'd like to select and copy a whole section of events in a project for use later. As it is, I have to copy a set of events and drag them to the extreme right if I intend to use them later; I end up with several groups of events. It would be much better if I could organize all this in one place. " I like that idea a lot cuz I end-up with the same situations also and probably a lot of other users also. "Just to be thorough, it's Sony that owns the software line now, not SoFo. We should all move on so there's no confusion later." Yes I know, old habits die hard. Cheers! Pat |
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Subject:RE: Dead boring round here. Time for AP5 and some controversy
Reply by: tascolas
Date:2/17/2004 4:15:25 PM
Oooops.. I forgot... I know its not the Vegas forum here but just for Acid 5's sake - the audio machine of Vegas should become rewire client so u can sync it internally to Acid - end of story. I already have it synced using MidiYoke for WINXP but Acid performs a bit unstable whereas Live is very stable and i ve got state of the art comps in my studio apart from my main systemso don;t accuse me. Most of the times though i run Vegas on a different comp using a cute little app called MidiOverLan.Most stable solution up to now as i found out after 100s of different configurations...Acid 3 was syncing better than 4 and thats a fact - Acid 2 and 1 were quite a nightmare in sync . Anyway -I applaud all the users who are concerned about where AP is heading to...Serious users need serious developers... Only time will tell what Sony might be preparing for us. And to even start something new check my new thread plz - cheers - peace |