Subject:Is ACID now like SONAR?

Posted by: bakerbud9

Date:1/10/2004 9:00:38 PM

I am a long time user of Sound Forge, Vegas, and now DVD Architect. I love all these tools. In the past, I have never done much with MIDI, but now I am in a position where I need to start using it.

My question to this group is about ACID 4.0 and it's MIDI capabilities. I have an old version of Cakewalk that I could upgrade to SONAR. From my early experiences with Cakewalk, it always seemed like a powerhouse of a program in regards to MIDI, and I've heard SONAR is an improvement on top of that.

However, I also see that in ACID 4.0 a significant amount of MIDI capbilities have been added. But I do not have any experience with 4.0, nor do I really understand how comprehensive the MIDI support is vs. SONAR.

I'm looking for a MIDI program that will support moderately sophisticated MIDI recording, mixing and editing. My preference is to stick with Sonic Foundry products (because I love them so much). This would mean upgrading to ACID 4.0 and using it as my main MIDI program. Howver, I can not figure out if this would really be a wise move, e.g., is ACID really a full-fleged MIDI program now, like SONAR? Or will I quickly "hit the wall" with ACID if I try and use it as my main MIDI program?

In other words, is ACID really competing with programs like SONAR, or are the MIDI capabilities in ACID more "for convenience" as opposed to "for the main course."

Sincerely,

Nate

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: billybk

Date:1/11/2004 5:53:26 AM

Nate,
Why don't you just download both demos (ACID Pro 4 & SONAR 3), and find out for yourself, which one fits your particular MIDI sequencing needs. I happen to prefer SONAR for MIDI sequencing. I am sure ACID 5 ( when it comes out) will have improved on the MIDI side, but SONAR 3 is already a sophisticated MIDI sequencing environment with all of the bells & whistles along with a user friendly interface that you would expect from a professional level MIDI app:

Multitrack Piano Roll and Drum Editor both feature polyphonic rhythmic Pattern Brush
Event List view with display filtering
Notation, SYSEX, Markers, Tempo, other views
Non-destructive MIDI editing and mixing with 13 included real-time MIDI FX

SONAR 3 even has some nifty MIDI improvments:

Enhanced Advanced MIDI routing and synth layering

Play multiple or split synths from one MIDI controller
Route multiple controllers to multiple synths or MIDI devices
Custom drum maps allow you to create and play kits that span MIDI devices on multiple ports and multiple DXi synths
Save presets of your favorite MIDI configurations for instant recall


You mentioned you have an earlier version of a Cakewalk product that you could upgrade to SONAR from. What product is that? You should have gone to one of the SONAR 3 clinics that were touring around the country last October, they were selling brand new SONAR 3 Producer Editions ($719.00 retail) crossgrades (from most other competitors apps, Logic, SX, Cubase, ACID, Vegas, Reason, etc.) for only $179.00 (which is what I paid for my S3PE upgrade from SONAR 2) right at the Guitar Center. You only had to submit your current apps serial number when you registered SONAR, at a later date. I couldn't believe what a sweet deal they were giving. Needless to say copies of S3PE were flying out the door.

Well, to wrap this up, I don't want to come off sounding like a Cakewalk salesman, especially in a SONY forum :), because I really do use and love my SONY apps as well. This is how I normally use my core multi-media apps:

SONAR 3 - Is my main sequencing app, where I generally do most of my tracking (audio/MIDI,softsynths/looping) and mixing.

ACID Pro 4 - For pure loop arranging in an elegant interface nothing beats the ease and stability of ACID. If I am primarily working with existing loops with an odd recorded audio track here and there, ACID makes for a great songwriting/remixing/arranging tool. Next to SONAR, it is my second most often used app.

Sound Forge 7- Stereo audio track editing at it's best. I even have it on my SONAR Tools menu for easy access. I use it for mastering all my SONAR/ACID projects for Redbook CD preparation and creating MP3s.

Vegas 4- I use Vegas primarily for it's outstanding video editing capabilities but occasionally as a pure audio multi-tracking/mixing tool too.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:1/11/2004 9:38:36 AM

As Billy mentioned, try out the demos of both and see what works for you. You may find out that you want both, since they could compliment each other.

In addition, note that ACID was not meant to replace the role that a traditional MIDI sequencer like SONAR would fill. ACID is first and formost a looping tool.

Essentially, MIDI has to fit within ACID's existing paradigm—looping.

HTH,
Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
mD's ACIDplanet Page

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: ATP

Date:1/11/2004 10:07:40 AM

my 2 cents,

i think with ACID you will "hit the wall" pretty quickly if MIDI is going to be your main method of creating music, and not loops. like Iacobus said, ACID is foremost a looping tool, and its MIDI functionality is nowhere near as fluid as Sonar is.

recording isn't fluid, you have a popup window open while recording which doesn't allow you to see the project, there is no punch-in, and the midi files aren't integrated in the project, which means you have additional files to manage with your project.

after recording you have another popup window containing the midi file, but while you're editing this midi file it can't be played along with the rest of the project. likewise the cursor in the Midi window doesn't move along when you play the project, so you can't see where in the midi file it's playing ... i can go on for a while.

while MIDI in ACID is stable, it's the interface that is simply not as practical as the rest of ACID, or as practical as other sequencers like Cubase. since ACID is a looping tool i don't expect any drastic improvements in that area any time soon.

my advice, if MIDI is going to be your main thing, don't get ACID, but get something like Reason, Sonar or Cubase. if looping is going to be your main thing, definitely get ACID.

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: marcarotsky

Date:1/11/2004 12:03:14 PM

acid vs. sonar 3...

hate to say it, but go with sonar like everyone else pretty much said. FOR MIDI SEQUENCING!! acid does a pretty good job with BASIC midi sequencing and arranging!! anything advanced, youre gonna smash head first into that "brick wall" pretty quickly...with no airbag either!!! :) (sorry about the analogy) like everyone else said, acid is designed as a LOOP arrangement tool. acid is doing a great job evolving with the times, but...it still has a LOOOONG way to go to compete in the midi market!!! have you ever considered REASON? (propellerhead) if MIDI is your primary tool, REASON puts EVERY OTHER program out there to shame!!! you have control over EVERYTHING YOU CAN POSSIBLY WANT CONTROL OVER, and more!!!! it might not be practical though cuz reasons learning curve is about a year!! good luck though, hope all this helped you out!!!
--marc

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: Jessariah

Date:1/11/2004 12:27:21 PM

I agree. Sonar supports looping (groove clipping), but if you want to loop, use Acid. Acid supports MIDI, but if you want to concentrate on MIDI, use Sonar. If you can, get both. They're each indispensible.

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: bakerbud9

Date:1/11/2004 7:20:58 PM

Yes. The feeback in this thread has been very helpful. It sounds that SONAR is the upgrade I will make right now... I have an old version of Cakewalk that is upgradeable (yes, the product is so old it is still actually called "cakewalk"). I also have an old version of ACID (version 2.0). I will keep watching the development of ACID. If the MIDI capabilities ever get robust enough, I'll probably make the switch then.
Sincerely,

Nate

Subject:RE: Is ACID now like SONAR?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:1/12/2004 11:16:08 AM

I should add, like I said in my other post, you'll probably find that you'll want both.

It's very easy to take a MIDI track that you've recorded in SONAR and bring it into ACID, where you can then route the track to a VSTi or ReWire module and still have ACID's capabilities as a loop sequencing tool.

Will the MIDI capabilities ever get robust enough? I'm really not sure, because if the use of MIDI in ACID was the same as the use of MIDI in SONAR, it really wouldn't be the same.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
mD's ACIDplanet Page