Subject:good speakers to mix?

Posted by: chips

Date:12/18/2003 7:04:07 PM

I know my set-up isn't ideal, but I'm trying to keep costs down and want good speakers to mix my Acid songs thru.

Currently, I use headphones: SONY MDR-V6, which are excellent. I keep hearing about the dangers of mixing via phones, tho; that music sounds much different on speakers.

This are my questions:

1)What are some killer computer speakers for sound? (Please recommend some, even if you don't like the idea of mixing this way -- the ones I use now are breaking.) Are there any state-of-the-art, great comp speakers?

(Are all computer speakers 2.1, with 2 little desk speakers and 1 woofer for the floor?)

And, 2) What are you guys mixing on (speaker-wise) and what do you recommend?

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: marcarotsky

Date:12/18/2003 7:29:14 PM

if i were you, i would NOT USE computer speakers!!! for very close to the same amount of $$ you can go by a set of not so bad monitor speakers!!! and my recomendation is do not use a subwoofer unit! subwoofers are going to give you a "false" sense of bass. an over exageration!! go by a set of mirage bookshelf speakers (around $250 for the pair) mirage speakers are VERY GOOD for natural sound! (they dont give false imaging and false exagerated frequencies) i used to work at tweeter so trust me, i know my home speakers!! :-) (granted, we're not talking pro-level here) but mirage will suit you great! i used mirage speakers for 4 years before i got the monitors i have now! thats my suggestion. (obviously you will need some sort of amp or home receiver which you probably already own)
HTH
--marc

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: chips

Date:12/19/2003 1:48:50 AM

What do you use now? (and what was the cost?)

Do you think I can APROXIMATE a good mix on headphones?

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: coolout

Date:12/19/2003 4:09:58 AM

stay away from consumer speakers.

if you gonna be at least halfway serious about your music, good monitors are one of the most important investments you can make.

you don't need better sounding speakers, you need a flat, accurate representation of what you're hearing. plus they need to be magnetically shielded to use near your computer monitor.

monitors designed for audio reference will retain a higher resell value if you decide to trade up. with consumer bookshelf speakers unless they're some really nice bose ones you'd be throwing away your money.

prices have dropped in the last year or so for about 200-300 bucks you can get alot for your money. check out the m-audio, tannoy, behringer or event monitors in that price range. go to your local music superstore with a couple of you favorite cds and demand a test of a variety of speakers. pay attention to the difference between the $1500 speakers and the $200 speakers and find a healthy medium.

you can also get more bang for your buck by buying passive monitors and using a consumer amp or getting a used reference amp from ebay. they rarely go bad so you should have no trouble with a second hand one.

i've using passive tannoy reveals with a second hand alesis amp for 3 years and last summer i added a yamaha subwoofer. i never get any surprises when i play my mixes in the car or in the club.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:12/19/2003 9:13:16 AM

I use a pair of old Alesis Monitor Ones with the Alesis montor amp (I can't remember the number). I've listened to them a long time and I'm used to them. I argee with what has already been written. You need to invest in some decent monitors.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:12/19/2003 9:54:22 AM

I've been thinking about subs myself. I'm doing more material that has low Freq content, and I don't think I'm getting a clear picture of what is going on. What do you think about subs?

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: MyST

Date:12/19/2003 1:45:31 PM

M-Audio has a nice set of inexpensive 2.1 monitors that are easily upgradeable to 5.1 surround monitoring. If you have Acid Pro 4.0, it might be a good buy.

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.main&ID=b57869499ad3dcf48bf242aaa58dca2b

M

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: coolout

Date:12/20/2003 1:07:42 AM

a properly tuned subwoofer complements near-field monitors well.

i had completed a project three years ago and while sitting with the mastering engineer he showed me exactly what frequencies i couldn't hear on my tannoy monitors and how it affected my mix. i had a synthbass patch that was loudest in the frequencies my speakers couldn't produce, so i mixed it totally wrong. it was like i couldn't hear the bassline that much at home but in the mastering studio it was like an earthquake. plus we were planning vinyl release so you can have only so much low end to physically cut the record.

a sub really makes a noticable difference. the only issue is that subs are usually more $$$ than monitors speakers, but it's the only way you can tell what you're really doing unless you spend thousands for a pair of mid-fields,

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: BayOfPigs

Date:12/20/2003 4:18:31 AM

I've been curious about this as well.

Since I don't own "state-of-the-art" reference monitors, I do rough mixing on my computer's 2.1s (their woofers are terrifically inaccurate with bass), then I do a more thorough job on good headphones. Next, I Iisten to rendered CD mixes on various CD players thru various speakers -- you never know what people are going to listen to your stuff on.

Problem is, whenever I go to audio shops, their equipment never seems to be hooked up, or they are profound a-holes. Any recommendations on what stores to visit?

... And active speakers that don't need amps, any opinions on those?

I'm interested in this, because I'm in the market for speakers, and wondered even if I should forego the 2.1 route altogether, and just splurge on some high quality monitors. (under a $1,000.00 for the pair, if possible.) I really only care about computer sound for quality audio, so maybe 2.1s are wrong for me, and I can just also drive good monitors.

By the way, is anybody out there happy mixing with headphones?

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: coolout

Date:12/20/2003 3:14:04 PM

i'd complain to the store manager to get it together. the only real way to shop for any speakers is to test them side by side. plus if can't hear them you'd be better off buying online cheaper anyway.

you can walk into any consumer electronics place and they usually have every speaker demo ready. it's a shame music stores are sometimes more lazy. when i was shopping for monitors years ago my local mars music store (r.i.p.) had a pair of every monitor hooked up on a matrix and the salesperson just let me switch back and forth from the $1500 speakers to the $150 speakers. sam ash did not, guess who i bought from?

with active speakers you pay a little bit more that going with passives and a amp, but they're less to worry about. the amps are perfectly matched to the speaker. not to confuse the issue, i'm personally against most low-end (below $600 each) powered speakers. i remember that although my passive tannoys and the blue active ones were supposed to be the same speaker, the passive ones had a better bass response. it was like slapping an amp on the back somehow changed the acoustics of the speaker.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/20/2003 7:52:19 PM

i have mackies hr824s and im very happy with them, but i want to pick up a pair of midfields , possibly the krk88 the ones with the double 8" woffers.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: tibby

Date:12/21/2003 2:59:00 AM

I was once in a store to compare speakers, with the salesman hitting the necessary buttons. The salesguy says: "Are you planning to buy speakers tonight?" (It was about 1/2 hr. till closing time.) I said, probably not; but I'd be back to buy within the week.

And the guy got up and left the room! He didn't say excuse me, or I'll be back, or "screw you, I work on commision," he just got up and left me alone in the listening area, and didn't look back.

This happened in L.A. Alot of times it doesn't pay to complain to the manager 'cuz they're the rudest people in the store.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: tibby

Date:12/21/2003 3:20:02 AM

So, in summary, what's been said by the group here so far:

1) Some of us HATE sub-woofers (for inaccurate bass), and the ones that like subs think they provide frequencies otherwise missed, if they're "tuned properly" -- (what's that mean, by the way?) Good subs are pricey!

2) High end active speakers (over $600) can be better than some passives, 'cuz the amps are better matched to the speaker. (most people agree here? ...I've heard conflicting things...) BUT passives and an amp and less expensive.

3) Good speak brands or models (mid-price): M-AUDIO, TANNOY, BEHRINGER, EVENT, Mirage bookshelf speakers, MACKIE HR824s.

4) Mid-Fields seem to be most people's dream speakers.

--- Are we generally in agreement that 2.1's aren't to be mixed on? ...No one's commenting on the mixing by headphones questions, so I'm assuming no one's tried it, or agrees it's worth doing.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: MyST

Date:12/21/2003 9:00:51 AM

If your budget allows you to mix using headphones, than that's what you use. If your budget allows you to use monitors, than that's much better.
Either way, you really need to listen to your rendered project on various systems; boomboxes, home stereos, car stereos, etc.
Same goes for mixing on 2.1. You need to double and triple check your mix on other systems.

If you plan on marketing your mixes, you might consider getting the proper equipment, ie pro sound card, monitors, proper reverb plug-ins, etc.
I'm just a hobbyist, so mixing on my Fostex headphones and inexpensive 2.1 set-up is enough. I can tell you that when I listened to a song I made in Acid on my home system, the sound blew me away! The bass was, to me, perfect. Repeat, I'm a hobbyist. A Pro might have taken my mix apart.

If you want to go Pro, you need the equipment and the TALENT.

M

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:12/22/2003 3:44:01 PM

And the practice. Learning to mix takes lots of practice.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/24/2003 6:45:11 AM

So far no one has commented on the importance of working in a good sounding room. If your control room isn't well treated, especially taming down the low end stuff, the best monitors in the world still won't give you accurate mixes. Like many, I learned this the hard way, and now recommend that if you're serious about mixing music, work on your room first. Budget speakers in a bad room = crap.

HTH,

drbam

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:12/26/2003 11:10:50 AM

You've got a good point.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: coolout

Date:12/27/2003 3:50:20 PM

acoustical treatment makes a big difference.

it's funny how you start off just wanting to make some beats or remix or whatever. next thing you know you're an engineer and designing a control room.

but hey, at least you're not throwing money away at some guys small studio like we did in the early to mid-90's.

get you a little 16-track analog recorder or some adats next thing you know you're charging 50 bucks an hour. those guys used to make a killing...

now the whole game has changed. the folks who will be in demand in the lower to mid-range will be the ones who actually have skills because anyone can record, mix, and master a record for under a grand. it's not about just owning equipment anymore.

i've already had offers to mix projects from folks who couldn't get the same sound that i have although they have more gear. just because everything is cheap nowadays you really have to know the basics because it's easy to mess up with all the toys. you'd amazed at how many people don't know how to properly set a compressor, expander, or gate...much less know about establishing a decent gain structure and acoustics. there's very little safeguards for quality control.

i think everyone attending audio engineering schools should focus on trying to reach that mastering engineer level because in the future nearly every artist will be a decent producer/engineer.IMHO

the only ones making a living just pushing buttons will be the guards at the gate.

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: MyST

Date:12/27/2003 6:25:44 PM

Coolout...that's one of the best posts I've read in a looonnnggg time!!

Respectfully,
M

Subject:RE: good speakers to mix?

Reply by: Waskel

Date:12/31/2003 7:46:17 AM

I completely agree about room treatment, I'm working my way there as well. It can be expensive to do, so all at once for a hobbyist is a huge layout.
I mix on my 2.1's, some big home stereo speakers and headphones (AT's), switching back and forth to try and make sure I'm not missing something that should or shouldn't be there. I master on Event TR5's (yes I know, the bottom end lacks, I'm saving for a decent sub). I try not to mix and master on the same speakers, because I don't want my ears to get too numbed to any one set of speakers, certainly not my mastering set.
(BTW, some of the best advice I ever got from talking to a mastering engineer about home studio work was, "track it, mix it, then put it away for a while (4-6 weeks) before you try to master it. By the time you have mixed it, it will sound stale and tired and this will certainly affect your ability to master it properly.")
Then I play it on anything I can slip a disk into. My Bose home system, Diskman, my Dodge truck's factory CD and speakers, boomboxes, friend's stereos.... I'd put it on my job's music on hold if they'd let me. My point is, if you can't afford to build a high-end mastering room, then you have to learn the strengths and weaknesses of what you do have. You do this by trial and error, and listening to the product on as many systems as possible is how you learn to compensate for the weaknesses without overcompensating.

Hope this helps - have fun!!!!!

Waskel