Subject:what acid 5 really needs

Posted by: ozzborn

Date:12/1/2003 4:22:39 PM

ive been reading the most requested list and i think alot of people have some good ideas and than there are other ideas that i think should be for a diffrent product.

i use acid and reason almost exclusively,but i diffently want better midi support.

what i want to see in A5 is better tools for song creation,not a feature that your only gonna use once.

1. vst pluggins
the only reason A5 needs them is because of the t.c. powercore , uad card etc.(id like to be able to use the sony oxfordE.Q. and the sony inflator in my sony acid

2. midi, the piano roll editor must be able to scroll with the MAIN project,otherwise your editing midi blind.

3. rewire slave , this will increase acids sales

4.this is a me thing
id like to be able copy,move,and delete by regions,this would speed up assembling songs.

5. midi effects like cubase sx, (swing,quantize,apregiate,grove etc.)

thank you

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/1/2003 10:08:10 PM

>>3. rewire slave , this will increase acids sales
Really?
Did you do somekind of market research to determine this?

Peter

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/1/2003 11:30:55 PM

let me point out the obvious.

most musicians that i know that use reason, is thru cubase,nuendo,and protools. these producers are comfortable with there main software but use reason or abelton live(smart ass) because its compatible with there current main app.

if you choose to use acid, its hard use protools,nuendo,cubase,sonar at the same time,if acid was rewire slave it could(possibly)be used by other muscian/producers who would have never used acid stand alone.

ive been to 7 prostudios (each with multiple rooms) in the last 4 months and none of the ones using pc had acidon there machines.but they all had abelton live and reason because it ran within the host program.

4 studios had p.c.s ,3 used p.c.s alongside with macs(protools le,nuendo,gigasmpler etc.) and 1 ran strictly nuendo pc

i love the acid/reason combintion. along with my uad and pulsar cards i believe i havel the powerof a modest protools tdm system.

therefore id like to see acid live on alot longer..i will continue to use acid standalone if the midi becomes more reliable.

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:12/2/2003 12:03:36 AM

>>>>>>>>>1. vst pluggins
the only reason A5 needs them is because of the t.c. powercore , uad card etc.(id like to be able to use the sony oxfordE.Q. and the sony inflator in my sony acid<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I can't agree with this statement. If you want these plugins bitch at the vendor for not supporting the DX standard. OR go to this link:
http://store.yahoo.com/cakewalkdirect/cakvstaddow.html [problem solved]
Cakewalk bought this from FXpansion. If you find a problem go to their forums at: http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=29 and bitch about it. I will. I just upgraded to Sonar 3 Producer so I have it now installed on my machine.

This way sony doesn't have to waste time and resources just to have a product with their name on it. From what I gather at the UA forums the DX plugins are almost perfect. Hopefully the 3.3 drivers work out. But in terms of powercore maybe its just that not enough people are complaining to make it worth their time I guess. Stupid if you ask me.

Peter I'm not sure if a fxfreeze type feature is in the works but if it isn't then I hope that you contact the guy at www.fxfreeze.com and help him haul a$$ on the DX version of his plugin. And better yet I think it would be a great idea to have it "bundled" with acid 5/vegas 5. Maybe it can be worked out?

Ed.

Btw...Ozz I agree with the rest of what you posted. I would personally LOVE to be able to rewire acid to VEGAS 5 so that I don't have to worry about the multitracking/audio bouncing between apps fiasco. Vegas 5 being a rewire host only and to be used with acid and nothing else.

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/2/2003 1:34:35 AM

I have heard all of these arguments before. Producers, musicians, "pro this and that". Some users have opted to use a particular platform and model. I could present the same argument for users that center their world around ACID vs a Nuendo/Cubas/Logic/SONAR type tool.

There are no hard and fast rules to any of this. Hey, what ever works for the task at hand.

We provide a tool that does loop sequencing better than any of the uber tools out there. It delivers on what it was designed to do.

I am not against ACID being a ReWire device, in fact I think it would be "cool" and be a useful feature. However, being cool does not translate into a justifiable reason to do anything.

ACID will continue to grow. Whether that means it will be a ReWire device or become a MIDI sequencer remains to be seen.

It will always remain true to its purpose: Being the best loop sequencer on the market.

Peter

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: ATP

Date:12/2/2003 4:20:10 AM

-------
I am not against ACID being a ReWire device, in fact I think it would be "cool" and be a useful feature. However, being cool does not translate into a justifiable reason to do anything.
---------

true, but it being a *useful* feature doesn't justify it either? if many users want it, doesn't that justify such a feature being implemented? i'm wondering what kind of things besides Rewire slave implementation Sony can do with ACID that will justify the revision to be raised a whole digit to 5.0? surely some bugfixes won't cut it.

you said something about MIDI sequencing capablities. i've learned not to presume anything from your words, so maybe you would care to expand a little on this, or is it just theory from your end?

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/2/2003 12:15:30 PM

more producers/musicians would use acid (that normally would not) if it integrated into there main program. i bought vstis strictly because acid could now use them.wouldn't this same theory apply to other apps.

acid( rewired with reason) is my mainapp. this is the way i prefer to make music. my only real midi complaint is about the scrolling in the piano roll editor,when you press play in the arrange window and you project is playing , the piano roll does not. this is very frustrating for editing.

i use the uad cards in acid and it works good, vst gives us more options uad,powercore,and pulsar(xtc).

i was going to mention fx freeze,but i didn't no if it would add complications in acid.

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/2/2003 1:32:05 PM

>>true, but it being a *useful* feature doesn't justify it either? if many users want it, doesn't that justify such a feature being implemented? i'm wondering what kind of things besides Rewire slave implementation Sony can do with ACID that will justify the revision to be raised a whole digit to 5.0? surely some bugfixes won't cut it.
<<
Usefulness is a subjective thing. Many is not a very quantative term either. There are far more user types than represented by this forum. "Many" found the ReWire hosting support to be unwarrented. Some don't understand the addtion of MIDI - regardless of how we chose to do it.

>you said something about MIDI sequencing capablities. i've learned not to presume anything from your words, so maybe you would care to expand a little on this, or is it just theory from your end? <

I was merely responding - indirectly - to ozzborn's request to being a better MIDI sequencer. ACID is not a MIDI sequencer. The current MIDI implementation in ACID is consistent with how we work with audio loops. While I understand completely what some here have asked for, ACID being a MIDI sequencer is "not the point" of ACID.

The MIDI support in ACID will improve. I can't comment on what will or will not be in future versions of ACID. ACID will advance to be a better ACID and address those issues that make it a better ACID.

Peter

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:12/3/2003 9:32:34 AM

Now i stop hoping anything.

If Acid isn't meant to be a midi sequencer combined to its great loop based sequencer capability.

Then i'm out. Music isn't about Loop, Music is about Sequences. Alot have began with Acid because of its user-friendly interface. And because of its easy way to draw music.

The solution would be to split Acid Pro into :

Acid 5 "Loop" (light version of Acid Pro 5), with the Rewire slave abilities, and an improved beatmapper, etc...

and an Acid 5 "Sequencer" (full version of Acid Pro 5). That will be Acid Pro 4 + Midi Sequencer Abilities (i.e. Most Wanted Features List).

I didn't do any market research but i know that, with this way, you'll lose none of your clients.
And you'll know if your clients only buy your software for its loop sequencing skills.

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: setfan

Date:12/3/2003 12:14:45 PM

Hello Peter,

i don't want to be hard with SonicFoundry team or with Acid pro 4.0, i'm still one of Acid's user, but i really want to tell you that releasing a new Acid Pro will not make me as enthusiast as i could have be with your prog the last two years.
Working hard and hard on Acid have been a cool experience when it was just for fun and not as "now" for my work, and for musicproductions.
You can be sure, that your product have a really cool and great interface to work with, cool features as audio bus to use with audiocard as mine.
But, i just want to tell you that i decided to look to other progs for the futur, and for my actual productions. I bought two other softwares to go to an other level of quality:
The audio-engine of Acid is cool but not transparent and neutral as it needs for a pro-applications. i explain my point of view, if i use a loop under Acid Pro the sound will not be as clear as used in an other software.
The sound is not the same too for VST.
I don't tell this remarks to blame you, but, it's just to point some problems or needs encountered by users.
The second and the big last problem, not the smallest one. This point could "kill" some of your sales; Acid pro is really not stable. Rewire, VSTs are good points (i used them every time as loops) for Acid Pro but they make it to crash too much time. I can't work with a prog that crash two, three or four times a day of work and blocked your PC.
Well, hope these remarks will make you to pay attention to your software and the quality of the release.
Best regards,
Setfan

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: Spirit

Date:12/3/2003 12:25:07 PM

It's very hard to say "X feature will mean this". For example, I'd love AcidPro 5 to have excellent MIDI capabilities because then I could ditch my other apps and live quite happily in Acid. But it has such a long way to go to catch up to other apps, will it ever really be good enough ?

But if Acid comes out with some really improved audio handling (as per the suggestions thread), then I could probably forget about MIDI completely and go "all audio" and again live in entirely in Acid.

But a half-baked compromise might mean I forget about Acid altogether.

So who knows ? It's the mix of features that counts, the old line that "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: lovedogathome

Date:12/4/2003 12:00:17 AM

I use Acid for loops alone with my vocal on top. It's a completely different way of composing that is extroardinary! I don't need any kind of midi sequencing or vsti or vst or dxi or anything else. I do that on SX. Acid is perfect...except for ONE THING. If it could be a rewire slave MY LIFE WOULD BE PERFECT. With edirol Orchesta HQ I have the perfect combination! Sonar uses loops which is great except it doesn't have FADE TO EDGES like Acid(thank God it does). Yes another vote for Rewire slave. But if you can't...oh well, it's a great program...but rewire slave would make ME its slave.

John

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/4/2003 2:01:09 PM

Others have told us how wonderful, accurate, and clean our sound is as well as how stable it is.

How it "Sounds" is subjective.

Stablity varies from one machine to the next and there are endless variables inplace - not the least of which is the use of third party plugins that don't do the right things. If you have some specific, repeatable errors, we would be very interested in knowing the details. We always strive to improve stability.

In the end, you have to decide what does the job for you.

Peter

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: Studio_de_Lara

Date:12/4/2003 5:11:46 PM

Hello Peter (and all),
I think that running ACID as a Rewire Slave would solve alot of the sequencing and VSTi issues people want addressed.
By having Rewire Slave, ACID could be used with a software package (like Cubase SX )that is optimized for sequencing and VSTIs and still provide the awesome loop functionality. Plus, ACID would have the ability to use some great VST efftects (via Rewire). Basically a "win-win".

I have used Live (on a Mac) as a Rewire slave, and having loop possibilities with Logic (as Rewire Master) was liberating. I use the ACID / REASON combo (PC slaved to Logic MAC G4) because I love the ACID interface. It's a shame ACID is PC only.

My two cents.
Regards,
Rich

Subject:Combination of Vegas Audio and ACID

Reply by: ZAZKUASH

Date:12/5/2003 1:45:21 AM

+Multitrack recording and without the Record Window
+Many loops and one shots in one track (Shift+Paint tool we can choose between Samples that already kept in a new Acid Media Pool or something like that)
+Integrate multiple MIDI-compatible control surfaces (Mackie, CM Labs, HUI etc)

+And all the FADENGO feature list

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: setfan

Date:12/6/2003 3:55:00 AM

Peter,

I can understand that people find great, wonderful, the sound of Acid Pro. I never said and i'll never say that Acid Pro is a "excuse me the words" a "crap" prog. It's interface is really, really intuitive. You know it is really hard to find in an other app the ability to work as fast or in the simpliest way. The time stretch is cool, and work fine, but if i have to give you an exemple, excuse me of telling name of other app, but under live on PC or under Sonar, i won't have the same "grain", the sound will be more accurate, or less smooth. Perhaps, it could be the time-stretch engine that "blur" the loops or audio files.
About stability, i used ACID with as loops as midi. Well, i use more and more my own loops (programmed) than before, so yes i don't use Acid as i used it before. But you know, if i'm satisfied with a software, i'm not that kind of people who run after the last software, because someone "great" used it.
I use a software to produce tracks or what you want, in the better way with the most features i need. I was and i would like to use every time ACID Pro. You can believe i belonged to your fans and i "converted" a lot of people to use it, but now i'm not sure of that. We'll see in time if Acid Pro will vanish in lot of advise "being a not so solid app". I will recognize too, as i told, i worked with midi and loops. I don't use only commercial plugs, a lot of freeware applications (synthedit likes...) which can be cause Aicd to crash, but a lot of time, it seems that it's Acid that tried to do something unvalid, crashed, and blocked my computer.
The other things that, for the while, bring me far from Acid Pro, is the use of the virtual bus for mixdown or export of loops. I don't see why you only mixdown with the first driver, the A bus and not with other. If you can answer me an other thing, i wait for your advise.
To finsh with my long "speech" i will tell that me or perhaps a lot of people are sometimes are very hard in our point of view. But, the reason is that i was really kind of Acid pro, and to see lot of potentials being badly deserve by crash, features not finished, get on our nerves.
Best regards,
Setfan

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: rmeuk

Date:12/7/2003 4:07:49 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------
>>3. rewire slave , this will increase acids sales
Really?
Did you do somekind of market research to determine this?

Peter
----------------------------------------------------------

Well, *I* would buy it if it has that feature, if not I'll pass.

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: rmeuk

Date:12/7/2003 4:15:21 PM

>>>>Usefulness is a subjective thing. Many is not a very quantative term either. There are far more user types than represented by this forum. "Many" found the ReWire hosting support to be unwarrented. Some don't understand the addtion of MIDI - regardless of how we chose to do it.
<<<<<<<

Like it or not. Sony / ACID 5 will only get a foot in the pro-division when they come up with rewire-slave. I own a SSL room and there is no way I'll give up Nuendo2. Give me something that works with Nuendo2 on the same soundcard and I'll use it.
At the moment that's Ableton Live.

Maybe that's not the market you want to go in. That's fine! Then ACID will remain a toy. It's a shame because it has great capabilities.....

Steve
London, UK

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: rmeuk

Date:12/7/2003 4:19:49 PM

>>> It's a shame ACID is PC only.<<<

Yeah, this is why I *had* to buy a PC!! And guess what after two years of getting used to PC's I found no use for my Mac anymore (after being a die-hard Mac user for 10 years).
After selling my Mac I never looked back. So far it's been plain-sailing. (Nuendo2, WinXP, 2x RME HDSP 9652, UAD-1, TC Powercore FireWire, Apogee interfaces, 3GHz P4, bla bla)

Steve
London, UK

Subject:Acid 5 WHEN

Reply by: piotrk

Date:12/9/2003 6:29:48 AM

Interesting Thread. I'm now on the border of using Acid 4 but increasingly need VST plugs, betterMidi, and a lot thats been mentioned. Sonar 3 has loop capabilities and I am wondering if to dump Acid and move to Sonar or wait a while. When is Acid 5 likely to come. At what time of the year is there usually an upgrade. Any official word yet.

Subject:RE: Acid 5 WHEN

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:12/9/2003 10:29:22 AM

No word yet.

I don't use SONAR myself, but from what I've heard, its handling of loops leaves a little something to be desired vs. ACID's looping features. (That may be a reason why many users use both SONAR and ACID.) Make sure you try the demo first.

HTH,
Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
mD's ACIDplanet Page

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: lovedogathome

Date:12/9/2003 12:23:10 PM

Yes, I use Sonar and Acid. Perfect. One thing Sonar has prob with: split a loop, increase pitch of one, play them,often there is a click or noise between them: Acid: do the same and no click because of "Fade to Edges" an automatic check box feature. But they work together. Drop a loop in Sonar and bingo. Drop in audio, mouse-click: there's a groove clip. Do both, now that Sonar 3 live monitors more than one midi vsti track at a time.

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: knowbody

Date:12/9/2003 5:25:43 PM

I just found something I really need Acid to do.: I want the ability to cut an entire section from the timeline. It would be great if I could mark a section using the loop region and cut it so that all events within the region are cut and everything to the right is shuffled left (hope this makes sense). Removing a section when you have more than a screenful of tracks is time consuming. It would be even better if that section could be repasted elsewhere. Ie cut and paste multiple tracks at the same time.

Chris (Hunt)

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/9/2003 8:27:53 PM

this was my number 4 thing.
i just recently discovered regionsin acid 4.0 and it would be so much easier to copy,move ,and delete by regions.
it would make assembling your songs so much easier.copy the chorus to the last vrese,your singer wants an extended version for performing so you double the bridge,etc.,etc.....

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/10/2003 12:16:31 AM

Chris

You can already do this.

Turn on Ripple edits (Ctrl+L) and you will get what you want.

You can then do a Paste Insert (ctrl-shift-V) anywhere on the time line with the portion you just cut out.

Peter

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: knowbody

Date:12/10/2003 6:42:35 AM

Thanks for the reply Peter, I can't get ripple edits to work as I think you are suggesting. When I cut something nothing shuffles to the left. Actually I can't get ripple edits to do anything. What is supposed to happen?And do ripple edits work with multiple tracks selected at the same time?

Thanks,

Chris

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/10/2003 10:41:32 AM

this is true but you have to select everything within the region MANUALLY .

since these areas have already been designated as regions it would be simpler if all you had to do was click on the region line at the top and select copy,move,delete etc..... this would make the arranging of the song even faster.
vegas does this but its not perfect, it dosent quite snap to the grids as perfect as acid does.so sometimes it dosent line up

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/11/2003 2:15:38 AM

Go into Selection mode,
Go into Ripple edit mode
Make a Selection.
Hit Delete or Cut.
All elements to the right of the cursor will slide over to the left edge of the deleted selection.

Yes, Ripples work across selection basis.

Peter

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/11/2003 2:19:49 AM

Go into selection mode.
Double click between the region markers.
Selection is made

Cut/copy/paste as you wish.

While I know it is not an arrangment tool, I don't know how much easier it can be to work with regions.

I have never seen the problem you describe in Vegas. Do you have Frame Quantize turned on? What kind of error are you getting? What is the time format of your ruler ?

Peter

Subject:SonyPCH , a better explanation please

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/11/2003 12:24:38 PM

where do i double click so that all the tracks are highlighted

example:
i have a 36 track project in Acid. between measures 33 and 41 is the where the chorus first appears, i have decided i want to open up the song with the chorus instead which will start at measure 1. the way i normally do this is use the selection tool, start at the top of measure 33 and drag to measure 41 than i drag all the way down. after i do this i have to zoom in and make sure i got all the little stuff at the begining and ends of the measure(drums,hits,stuttered effects,etc..... )than copy ,move, delete.

if you could just doubleclick on the region bar and everything within that region was highlighted it would speed up the arranging process.

if there is a better way or can you already do this but i haven't discovered it yet, please enlighten me.

thank you

Subject:RE: SonyPCH , a better explanation please

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/11/2003 5:47:33 PM

>>if you could just doubleclick on the region bar and everything within that region was highlighted it would speed up the arranging process
<<
That is exactly where you double click. You must be in time selection mode though.

So, I create a region and two little green flags show up on the ruler.
Making sure I am in "Time Selection" editing mode, then double left click anywhere on the region ruler (not the time line ruler) between the two little green flags. Note that you must be on the maker ruler. The mouse pointer becomes a pointer with the "Selection indicator" <-> .

The selection is moved/made between the region markers.

In fact they don't even have to be region flags, any two flags will work. That is you can double click between two tempo makers, two key sig markers, to simple markers, etc, etc

Also, if you have mutliple regions selected and you are in Time Selection mode, then you can hit the number keys to move the selection from one to the next.

The key is you have to be in Time Selection mode.

Peter

Subject:SonyPCH you are my hero

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:12/11/2003 9:53:05 PM

thanks i wish i would have learned about this years ago,this is going to make my life simpler

p.s. for those that just discovered this , just select time selection from the tools at the top.

thank you SonyPCH.

Subject:RE: SonyPCH you are my hero

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/12/2003 2:34:00 AM

With out sounding too harsh, you should print the PDF of the manual, and read it. You are familar with the tool, and reading through it will provide a lot of insight and features. You also might want to consider getting one of the third party books on ACID.

Peter

Subject:RE: SonyPCH you are my hero

Reply by: knowbody

Date:12/12/2003 5:56:32 AM

Thanks Peter, I think your idea of reading the manual is a good one. The last one I read was for Acid 2! I got the ripple edit function to work using the Time Selection tool. Didn't see any little green flags though.

All the best,

Chris

Subject:RE: SonyPCH you are my hero

Reply by: zendar

Date:12/12/2003 6:19:15 AM

RTFM! RTFM! STFU!

Subject:RE: SonyPCH you are my hero

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/12/2003 6:29:43 PM

>>Didn't see any little green flags though.
You didn't see the region marker flags when you add a region?

Peter

Subject:RE: SonyPCH you are my hero

Reply by: knowbody

Date:12/13/2003 7:38:16 PM

Thanks for replying, Peter. I guess I wasn't making a region. I was using the looping region to mark out the section to cut. Incidentally, in Acid 2 starting playback with the looping region active worked differently. the cursor would jump to the region rather than playing into the region. Is there any way to set Acid 4 so it will behave as Acid 2?

Chris

Subject:RE: what acid 5 really needs

Reply by: maxgroove

Date:12/13/2003 7:41:52 PM

How about being able to record multiple tracks at once? I'm in a band, and I would love to be able to record more than one track independently at a time. I have a soundcard with multiple 'ins', and I would like to take advantage of that in Acid.