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Subject:Acid versus Ableton debate
Posted by: Spirit
Date:10/17/2003 3:16:55 AM
Debate at KvR: http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=317899 Acid v Ableton |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Zacchino
Date:10/17/2003 11:06:01 AM
Pointless... It's a matter of music vision. Music vision is part of your Art. Art requires technic. The technic you're using is partially leading your Art. If you're not aware of this point, you're not a creator. Real artists have the knowledge of his technic limits, because he chose them, because he didn't have the will to look further in other strategies, in other technologies. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:10/20/2003 1:05:14 PM
Oh, look, a pi55ing contest. "ACID vs. Live" is like "Apples vs. Oranges", IMHO. I get so sick and tired of the "my software is better than yours because it does THIS" debates. You simply use what works for you and nothing more. It is bad advice to recommend a specific title, simply because what's great for you might be terrible to another. I didn't like Live. As such, that's my opinion. Others don't like ACID. That's their opinion. shrug The person looking for advice should do his/her research and not have to rely on others. That's what demos are for. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: coolout
Date:10/20/2003 1:32:36 PM
yeah, i agree but people tend to be very protective of their tools... live's reputation from the beginning was built upon it being a "acid-like", but different. i tried version 1.0 and even gave 2.0 a whirl and i still think for the work i do...live still sucks. i think if you're into triggering loops and doing basic arrangments live is o.k., but acid has evoled into a complete production tool not just a loop toy. i couldn't imagine comping vocals or doing a complete mix with live. the interface is clunky IMHO. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:10/21/2003 1:05:50 PM
Agreed. That's actually the problem—a lot of users don't realize that ACID is marketed as a production tool just like the other apps in the Sony family, therefore they make immediate comparisons between ACID and Live if only for the reason that both deal with loops. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: jonathan88
Date:10/24/2003 3:44:09 PM
Rubbish. IIf Acid doesn't learn to play nicely with Cubase SX, and Nuendo it's as good as dead and will be a toy before you know it. A bad sign is seeing Acid sold as Best Buy....it's becoming a tutty frutty tool for kids. Acid used to be great, ground breaking and so forth, but it irks me when I read, oh, Acid can sync with Cubase, bull crap. Acid needs to work with REWIRE and VST. Ableton does everything I wish Acid could have done. I need loops, I use ABleton inside SX/or Nuendo, while scoring with SX and GIGA. Then of course there is Reason, which gives me even more reason to stay away from Acid. I have version 4.0, but have not used it for an work since 3.0. There is no need. You need to lay down beats? VST Groove Player exceeds anything either Acid or Ableton could do.... Acid needs to get away from the ACID master MIDI synch stuff and get with the program, it needs to work as a plug-in, period, end of story. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: loophead
Date:10/25/2003 8:13:08 AM
I have cubase SX on one machine and ACID 4.0 on another.They are both synced using MTC. Acid runs as a slave fine. I ran live for a while as a rewire app, it just didn't cut it for me. This setup is very productive for me. I am quite happy. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Jacose
Date:10/25/2003 9:42:27 AM
live really doesnt fit my worklfow. its cluttered and i dont see how the GUI works :) thats just how i feel though. no sense in argument., |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:10/25/2003 1:06:15 PM
Just for the record, ACID was always sold at Best Buy; so were other apps such as Sound Forge. Quite frankly, selling such apps there is a great idea, since people are looking for such apps nowadays to help with the audio aspect of making their own home movie DVD's on their computers. For example, Joe Smith wants to create a simple music bed in the background for his movies. ACID is a perfect fit for this job. It's a no-brainer. Exactly how does selling a pro-level app at a nationally-known electronics store chain make it a "toy"? Sorry, but it smacks of elitism if you ask me. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: coolout
Date:10/25/2003 2:25:47 PM
it really is a matter how you work. i use acid in the same manner most of my friends use protools or nuendo. at first they didn't believe in the power of acid but after showing them how easy it is to edit and arrange not just loops but any recorded audio in acid they know that acid pro 4.0e is no joke. jonathan88, if you want to mute and unmute your little loops on the fly and play around with some effects ableton live is good for that. acid pro's concentration is in a totally different direction and has been for a while now. at first i just wanted acid 3.0 as a rewire slave, but now i prefer to use acid for tracking, arrangement, and mixing over all other midi/audio sequencers. SOnyFO addressed nearly all my issues...the intergration with reason seamless and my vsti/midi work great. along with my UAD card i have as much DSP and editing power as anybody's protools rig. all i need is a dedicated traditional-style track mixer and multiple input recording and i'm set to handle anything. acid is for production not live performance. i personally think the whole use of ableton live for live performance is a poor gimmick. no one can see nor really cares what you're doing behind your laptop. i'd just rather finish up the song, burn my tunes to a cd and throw them in a pioneer cd deck where you can play around with it just as much without the stress of bringing your computer to the gig...then again i feel the same way about final scratch. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: mortalengines
Date:10/25/2003 4:20:20 PM
i think it goes back to what mD said- you use whatever works- i love acid but, am contemplating a purchase of live for use as a "live" tool & being able to "improvise" & keep the live playing aspect interesting, if nothing else. supposedly ableton is a mother like no other in this dept- |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Jacose
Date:10/25/2003 10:48:30 PM
i can definetly see Lives application for... live gigs. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Spirit
Date:10/26/2003 2:29:14 AM
I think this debate is very relevant. It's not so much saying "this app is better than that"; it's to compare the features and directions of two apps that have heavily overlapping appeal. Live basically takes short musical segments and allows you to arrange and effect them - that's the basis of Acid too. But the way they do it, and the tools they give you vary. Is Ableton capturing the market, setting the agenda, taking customers from SoFo ? Does the requency of Ableton Live's updates give it an edge by keeping it high-profile ? Will Acid try to replicate some of the strong points of Live, or try to go a completely different direction ? And what is it about Live that would convince Acid users to make the switch ? Remember Ableton recently had a very good crossgrade offer for Acid users... These may not be questions that interest the majority of users, but they are relevant business issues that may effect what tools SoFo has on offer. For example, what I really like about Ableton is the ability tio punch in/out for specific bar/measure lengths - that feature alone makes me consider switching. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:10/26/2003 8:54:33 AM
Why not just buy Live 3 and rewire slave it to Acid 4 and be done with this arguement! ;) Now was that so hard? Ed. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: coolout
Date:10/26/2003 3:45:49 PM
you're exactly right... acid and live = apples and oranges both fruit, yet totally different flavor...if you need to trigger loops on the fly go for live...if you want to make records get acid. i played around with live 2 and hated it, mainly because i was looking for a acid replacement to run on my ibook (before acid 2.0 for mac...er apple soundtrack existed). thank god i sold that ibook. perhaps you can use live as some kind of loop triggering/drum machine thingy in acid. many of the new features in live 3.0 have been in acid for couple of years and as far as i can tell live still doesn't import mp3 and has no chopper utility, which are important to me. the moral of this story is IMHO they have some things in common, but live does some things acid can't do and the things they have in common acid does much better with less headache and more flexibility. here's a fairly simple challenge: take a bunch of samples and do whatever you would normally do to them in both programs. you'll see what i'm talking about. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: jonathan88
Date:10/27/2003 12:54:57 AM
Ok, perhaps the Best Buy point was ill-stated, my apologies. But the point is this, I tried Live too, at first, I did hate it and didn't use it for quite some time, but the kicker is, (like Reason) once you understand how it works, it becomes a great tool. Now yes, Acid is a tool but what I'm saying is that it IS losing ground, I am one of a few that use are in the same boat, composing to picture, trailers, comercials, etc... Acid used to be the go to for hashing out quick loops and vibes, but in order to really get creative, you have to use real high end samples (giga studio), sequencing (SX/Nuendo), Orchestral (Sibelius, FInale 2004, etc, as well as read musical notation, arrange, etc, etc), and when you get into a situation where it's TOTAL control and creativity, Ableton live works best. Live can take a loop (so can't REASON 2.5) and loop it while running SX/Nuendo in realtime, while triggering GIGASTUDIO orchestral Samples.. You want some cool drums then fills, ableton live has it's own seq. track that will track in addition to your SX/Nuendo tracks, all seperate yet sent via a BUS back in SX. and with 3.0 (which I haven't even installed yet), you can now take for example a BASS Loop, and out of ONE (read 1 static bass loop) create NUMEROUS believable vartiations from pitch to style. The biggest drawback (and perhaps I am in the minoriity) is that Acid doesn't work in my workflow, ala rewire, or VST. I promise that as soon as ACID becomes as a plug-in style, it will be accepted again, but of now, live will do what acid does, and to some extent more. Just my thoughts.... thanks Acid's biggest problem |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:10/27/2003 1:37:19 PM
Not a problem. I just wanted to make sure that we're clear here as to what ACID's capability is. There's no doubt ACID's strength lies in what you throw at it. You've mentioned high-end samples, but that doesn't exactly mean you have to use samplers to produce what you want. It'd be a mistake to discount those that record live, for example. You really can't beat that raw, live feel as opposed to the synthetically-produced (though I should mention it may be desirable depending on what you're aiming for). I've yet to find a sampler that can mimic an electric guitarist in feel, for example. (Not that I'm looking; I play guitar myself.) Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: dbOS://00
Date:10/27/2003 5:42:32 PM
I have always felt that Acid and live, though simmilar, posses amazing potentials in their own right. There are things that Acid does, that I have never seen another program do as well, and there are things that I have seen other programs do that Acid didn't do very well. I think that I have read in past posts that "what works for me might not work for you" or something to the equivilent, I know some people who only use reason, not because they don't have a badass DAW like *enter your favorite program/sound card combo here* but because they can do everything they need within one program, I have also seen people whose computers don't look like computers, but machines capable of generating the sweetest of sounds, and calculating the most amazing algorithms imagineable. Truth be told I think that it is the artist, not the equipment. Classic example: Delta blues recordings; probably a cheap guitar, and a crappy mic, more than likely a recording engineer who didn't want to be there, but in the end a piece of music is created, and that is what's important. So what if you don't like live or Acid... ... I do (like Acid), there is no Reason (2.5) to debate over matters of preference or taste. Otherwise it becomes a pissing contest, and you'll always run into someone with a bigger bladder. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: coolout
Date:10/28/2003 7:43:42 PM
jonathan88, i donno if all you need is to play a loop with cubase, why not do it SX/nuendo with the hitpoints? if you need to chop up and trigger samples on the fly, why not use phatmatik pro? it's a vsti and you never have to leave you comfy post-production sequencing environment. i'm not trying to flame anyone...i just think the live is very overrated. i was at summer NAMM and while i was eating dinner the m-audio guys were sitting at the next table. they were loudly going on and on and on about how great live was. i just wanted to throw my dinner roll at them and shout "the GUI sucks, there's no chopper, and you can't import mp3..." LOL |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:10/30/2003 12:49:46 PM
That would figure, since M-Audio is in cahoots with Ableton. (Witness M-Audio's Web site.) Not here to flame either company (I use M-Audio's Audiophile 2496 and USB Duo), but I wouldn't act like they did, especially when you know they're co-sponsoring. It's a little obnoxious. M-Audio should know better than to play favorites (but again, look at their Web site). Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: rmeuk
Date:11/1/2003 10:23:19 AM
>>>Rubbish. IIf Acid doesn't learn to play nicely with Cubase SX, and Nuendo it's as good as dead and will be a toy before you know it. A bad sign is seeing Acid sold as Best Buy....it's becoming a tutty frutty tool for kids. Acid used to be great, ground breaking and so forth, but it irks me when I read, oh, Acid can sync with Cubase, bull crap. Acid needs to work with REWIRE and VST. Ableton does everything I wish Acid could have done. I need loops, I use ABleton inside SX/or Nuendo, while scoring with SX and GIGA. Then of course there is Reason, which gives me even more reason to stay away from Acid. I have version 4.0, but have not used it for an work since 3.0. There is no need. <<<<< Exactly! I can only agree with you! I'm in the same situation. I have to use Nuendo and Ableton because I work as a professional. I'd rather have ACID together with Nuendo, but there is no way. ACID will be dead soon if they don't change it to rewire or VST. Steve RME London |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: rmeuk
Date:11/1/2003 10:25:46 AM
>>They are both synced using MTC<< You can't be serious!! The sync is way to loose. Everytime you hit play the sync will vary up to 40ms. That's because of the MTC definition. I tried to solve that problem for years, there is no chance. The only tight sync is Rewire. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: rmeuk
Date:11/1/2003 10:40:35 AM
I was suprised noboday mentioned the difference in sound quality. I think the stretch algorithm in Live (I own both ACID and Live) is awful. Have you ever tried to work with Solo instruments (nylon guitar, bass, vocals,. etc...)? No matter how long you tweak you can't get it right with Live. It will always sound very unnatural. With ACID there's nothing to tweak, it sounds right out of the box. Also: Live can not read ACID-iced loops. It always asumes the 'Hitpoints' at 16th notes. It will read Sonic Foundry's loop library only as standard wave file. If you work with 'real' drum loops and the some hits are early they get cut off. So you have to edit everything which is way to cumbersome. So if ACID is so much better, why do I keep using Live? Well, I'm a professional musician and 'play' a lot of instruments. My main instrument is my voice and for that purpose I need good editing features like Nuendo2 or Cubase SX2. My sequencer also has to run with an SSL desk. (read MMC and send SMPTE + MTC) The only proper way of syncing with these apps is by Rewire or as a VSTi. MTC is a joke. It's not tight enough (up to 30ms variation everytime you hit play). ACID can't be rewire-slave/VSTi so Live is the only choice. If ACID will not be rewire slave or VSTi I won't bother upgrading anymore. Steve |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:11/1/2003 1:01:47 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand. You say ACID's algorithm is better than Live's, but yet because ACID cannot yet be a ReWire slave you prefer Live? For the record, Sony has expressed interest in letting ACID be a ReWire slave, but don't quote me either as I don't work for Sony's software division myself. Personally, I don't use ReWire or even VSTi's much, being "hands-on" myself. (I use ACID like I have since ACID Pro 2.0 but with the added features for digtal audio.) ACID, like Sony's other apps, obviously means different things to different people to achieve what they want. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid mD's ACIDplanet Page |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: loophead
Date:11/1/2003 3:38:51 PM
"You can't be serious!! The sync is way to loose. Everytime you hit play the sync will vary up to 40ms. That's because of the MTC definition. I tried to solve that problem for years, there is no chance. The only tight sync is Rewire." I have perfect sync using MTC with SX 1.03 and Acid 4.0. I use it everyday. My main box running SX has an ASUS P4B533 and my acid box is a Dell something or another. Do you need proof???? |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: rmeuk
Date:11/5/2003 1:06:44 PM
>>>I have perfect sync using MTC with SX 1.03 and Acid 4.0. I use it everyday. My main box running SX has an ASUS P4B533 and my acid box is a Dell something or another. Do you need proof???? <<< Yes! Record **several takes** (at least 5) from the same drum track in ACID (ideally a rimshot or very short percussive instrument) within Cubase. Then zoom in and see how much they all differ. Measure the biggest distance in ms at the beginning of each signal and tell me. The next problem I have is: How do you get the audio signal from ACID onto the soundcard when Nuendo/Cubase is already using it? Don't tell me to buy a seperate card for ACID, because I'm using 48 channels Apogee with Nuendo for my mixing desk. cheers, Steve |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: loophead
Date:11/5/2003 1:36:38 PM
I'm not sure you understand me correctly. I never record into ACID. I do all of my recording into SX. I have two seperate PC's running side by side. One of them has SX, the other has Acid. They are linked using MTC with a midiman duo on each. The SX PC has a delta 44 sound card and the Acid PC has a typical soundblaster card. Both cards are fed into an analog mixer. I know I have perfect sync because I loaded up ACID with about ten different samples all in the same tempo. I then loaded SX with the exact same samples. When I press play, SX starts, Acid waits about 2 seconds, then locks. There is minimal phasing between the two machines during this initial test. They playback in Sync. I must admit, I have been waiting a long time to get this to work. One of my old machines had a via chipset that was giving terrible midi lag. Now with these two new machines, I have the VST power and multitrack capabilities of SX, and the looping power of Acid. One more thing of interest, I am using a cybex switch view so that i can use the same mouse and keyboard with both machines. I do have dedicated monitors to each PC. I'd be more than happy to answer any other questions. |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: rmeuk
Date:11/12/2003 12:03:52 PM
God, I don't mean to record it in ACID! Record the ACID track in Cubase several times. Always the same track. Then zoom in and you will see that the ACID track will play at different times. One time it's a bit early, the other time a bit late. Now measure from the beginning of the earliest track to the beginning of the latest. What's your difference in ms? Record at least 5 -10 versions. Know what I mean? |
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Subject:RE: Acid versus Ableton debate
Reply by: loophead
Date:11/14/2003 12:44:08 AM
7 ms was the greatest distance between the beginning of the first transient. I recorded the loop 10 times in SX. What kind of results are you getting? This is acceptable for my needs. |