Subject:VV3 ----> SF6

Posted by: VU-1

Date:9/4/2003 11:16:42 PM

Don't have time to do a topic search so sorry it I'm digging up graves....


Anyone know what happens with regard to wordlength, etc. when you digitally output a 44.1/24 file from VV3 into digital input to SF6 and set the record format to 44.1/16 ? Are the last 8 bits truncated or what?

I am routing the Master buss output of VV3 to the S/PDIF output of my soundcard - thru the digital patch bay - to the S/PDIF input of my soundcard - and recording the incoming signal in SF6.

Thanks for the input.
Jeff Lowes
On-Track Recording

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: heinz3110

Date:9/5/2003 2:14:50 AM

Hi.

Why don't you just save the vegas project as . WAV( 16bit/44k) ? Seems to me that that's easier (because you can walk away from it while rendering -instead of setting up the s/pdif route and rerecord it).

Anyway,I prefer it that way.Any particular reason you want it the s/pdif route ?
And as far as for the truncating issue...maybe do a blind test to see (hear actually) what method gives the best results?

Gerard.

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: drbam

Date:9/5/2003 8:26:00 AM

If Vegas and SF are on the same computer, why not just open the file in SF and do a sample rate conversion? The last 8 bits will be truncated unless you apply some dithering (which you should do). There are some good plugs and presets in SF for this. Either way, there's certainly no need to re-record via spdif.

HTH,

drbam

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: VU-1

Date:9/5/2003 9:06:01 AM

1) I used to use the rendering process to go to 44.1/16 until I discovered that the rendered file does not sound the same as the original. I ran quite a few tests on this and found that the method that yielded the closest result was to do the "live" transfer.

2)I cannot simply open the file in SF because there is processing that is being done by VV3 during playback. I am using dithering within VV3 at the Master buss stage.


If I could trust VV3 to do an accurate render, I would certainly go back to using that method...

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: Sonic

Date:9/5/2003 11:09:06 AM

Try setting your Vegas project rate to 16-bit, then playback and the render should match.

On that note, you could render to 24-bit and do the dither/bit-depth conversion once you are done editing in Sound Forge.

If you are convinced that Vegas is not rendering "accurately", it might be wise to visit the Vegas forum with your concerns.

J.

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:9/5/2003 1:36:54 PM

Jeff,
The way you're doing it, I would expect your assumptions about truncation to be correct. I'm just wondering why you're recording with sound forge when playing back with Vegas. My usual approach is to do a real-time playback out from Vegas, and record the Mix back into Vegas, through my digital input. Then I would do an "open in Sound Forge" of the recorded mix within Vegas to transfer the finished mix into Sound Forge then do all your bit dithering.

I agree with you on the rendering subject. I haven't explored this too much, but it always seems to me that when I render a mix, it seems to lack some punch and smoothness that I feel in a real-time playback. I also have a similar setup as you, where I route out to an external mixer, and the Spdif master out of my mixer feeds my DAT and also get's recorded back into Vegas via the digital in of my sound card. Rendering mixes never makes too much sense to me anyway. It's kind of like saying to your client, that you don't care to listen to their music anymore and it's like missing the best part. You've spent all this time recording/editing/mixing now this is the whole climax where you get to sit back and listen and enjoy the hard work you've done. Plus the fact, this is the last chance to catch anything that may have slipped by before you ship it out the door. I'll leave that rendering stuff to engineers who don't need to listen to their mixes, an extra 5 minutes has saved me many more wasted minutes and face.

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: VU-1

Date:9/8/2003 10:34:41 AM

>>The way you're doing it, I would expect your assumptions about truncation to be correct. I'm just wondering why you're recording with sound forge when playing back with Vegas. My usual approach is to do a real-time playback out from Vegas, and record the Mix back into Vegas, through my digital input. Then I would do an "open in Sound Forge" of the recorded mix within Vegas to transfer the finished mix into Sound Forge then do all your bit dithering.<<

The reason I have been recording into SF6 is because (as far as I understand it) since my VV3 project is set at 44.1/24, if I simply record back into VV3 onto another track, the new track (mix) will be recorded in the same format - 44.1/24 which defeats my whole purpose of dithering within VV3. SF6 has been set to record the incoming signal at 44.1/16....

However, since you mention it - I just tried recording into another instance of VV3 which is set to a project format of 44.1/16. The playback instance of VV3 didn't like it saying that the sound card is in use by another application but the file was recorded just fine anyway by the 2nd instance of VV3.

VV3 seems to record the file just as good as SF6 - if not slightly better - and both sound better than rendering.

This method would actually be a little faster since I can then record the final version of each tune directly onto the EDL where I want it to appear on the CD Master file.

Subject:RE: VV3 ----> SF6

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:9/8/2003 1:02:47 PM

Jeff,
I haven't done an A/B comparison with dithering of SF vs. Vegas. The point I was trying to make is to record it back into Vegas and I realized that it would record back at the project sample/bit rates. I was suggesting you use the the dithering options within Sound Forge. I believe SF has all the options as Vegas for dithering and probably more. You could even use the DX dither plugin from Vegas, or the bit/depth dither options within Sound Forge. You could easily do an A/B comparison this way also, by soloing the mixed 24 bit track in Vegas and then applying the dither in Sound Forge using the "open copy in SF" and playing that back for comparison.