|
Subject:Is there something?
Posted by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/24/2003 8:40:20 PM
Hi all after weeks of reading and practicing and mixing mixing mixing, while i am getting better i am still having a hard time with out the much touted studio speakers. Frankly i can afford the speakers, so i guess i will ask what is the next best thing to use, when mixing, to hear a real representation of your mix? obviosly trying to play it over three different systems with three different sound cards on three different set of speakers isnt doing it. I mean i hear it fine on all three, but others out in the internet universe tell me voices are too low or some instruments are to high. Is there a way to measuren it with out using speakers, like some form of spectrum analyzer that would tell me where i need to add frequencey? thanks in advance!! |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:7/26/2003 3:02:53 PM
In addition to getting reference monitors as you've noted, Sound Forge does have a spectrum analysis tool that will tell you what frequencies are where. HTH, Iacobus |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: MyST
Date:7/26/2003 7:47:57 PM
"Is there a way to measuren it with out using speakers, like some form of spectrum analyzer that would tell me where i need to add frequencey?" In the end you still need to HEAR the end result, graphics on a screen won't cut it I don't think. Can you afford at least a good set of headphones? It's the next best thing to monitors. There are headphones out there that are more suited to mixing/mastering than others. Find some that don't colour the sound too much. I bought Fostex T20 headphones and I find they work well. Also, for me,they're comfortable for long periods of time. And they're not expensive. Find some "closed" designs, that way you won't lose any bass detail and you won't bother other people around you, if that's an issue. I mixed a short project using them and listened to it on my home stereo (Yamaha amp and Paradigm Monitor 3 speakers) and it sounded very good to me. That project was made up entirely of loops however, maybe recordings are more difficult. M |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/27/2003 8:06:06 PM
Iacobus...thanks for your reply and Myst thank you also, i think the headphones are my best option, You said get closed designs, I own a pair of Optimus that i have always liked but what else is there in the way of Headphones? I am looking in the 250.00 range or lower, but i dont know any names. does it say "Closed" design on certain good head phones? thanks in advance |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: evilrage
Date:7/27/2003 9:58:18 PM
for mixing, i use a set of sony headphones i got through work. they aren't studio quality, but when i can't use my sound system, they're pretty accurate as far as i can tell. now though, i think i need to update my sound card... but that's another story... |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: MyST
Date:7/27/2003 10:25:44 PM
www.headphones.com/headphones/professional/professional.html www.headphone.com <<<<notice no "s" in the site's name www.headwize.com Here's a good starting point. I'd suggest you stay away from the DJ style with the flippable earcup. But hey, that's just me. I'd tend to think it's just another "joint/hinge" to be succeptible to breakage. Alot of the higher end headphones show the frequency response on the box. For +/- 250$, you might be able to get a good set of headphones AND a headphones amplifier. Excellent duo for PC use! Look at the above site and try to contact specialists that can recommend you a good set-up. Tell them what you're trying to accomplish, what you're looking for (substitute for studio monitors-NO colouration!), and someone could guide you much better than I can. Like I said, I bought Fostex, because they sounded the best for MY budget, which certainly wasn't 250$! :) If you can, try to find a local retailer for the model they recommend, and see if you can listen to them. BTW, from what I've seen on the Headwize forum, the Sony MDR-7506 seem to be very well liked. However, Headroom recommends the Beyerdynamic DT250-80s. M |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: groovewerx
Date:7/28/2003 1:00:41 AM
So you're searching for a "better" way after weeks of practice? Folks must be crazy to spend years honing their crafts huh? "A man's got to know his limitations". What you've got is good enough for writing and arranging songs, but software and hardware cannot replace the human ear and its ability to judge what you like or not. If your ears cannot discern a good mix from a bad one, just focus on what you do best for now. Mixing and learning take patience and apparently you don't have it, so the little money you have would be best spent hiring a professional that charges on a scale according to your ability to pay. Good audio heads do it all the time. You could also spread the load amongst folks that have the muscles you haven't developed. I volunteer to be the be both: Send me an 8-track rendering and I'll put a mix on it to show you the range it could be in. If you like it, try to emulate. If you can't, we can discuss taking it further. colabs AT groovewerx DOT com. |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/28/2003 2:07:48 PM
Groovewerks thanks for your offer!!!, and i may take you up on it one day. My problem is i just dont have the hardware to attain the muscles in the ear. I need to be able to use headphones because i live in an apartment complex and dont wanna wake the nieghbors. I am not very knowledge-able in the way of equipment. I know i have only been doing it for weeks, but it seems like i am not even close (LOL). But if i get better equipment such as head phones, i would be able to hear things better than what i have now (Creative 6600 speaker set, a pair of Creative stereo speakers and some gwaudy set of cheapo's!!). I read every other night another articles and i understand the theory, it's getting into a position to practice the theory that i would like to accomplish. However i do want to learn and train these ears, and i apologize if my lack of success appears to be whining, it is not. Just want to be able to do this in the best way i can. thanks again for your offer, it is appreciated. For now i will go the Head phone route as soon as i can find a good pair. |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/28/2003 2:09:02 PM
evilrage and myst thanks for the links and suggestions. the info is a great starting place, thanks for your input!! |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: groovewerx
Date:7/28/2003 3:46:05 PM
Thor, I used these headphones to mix (not master) this song in an untreated apartment at midnight. Headphones: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=020309143910066190225096051888/search/g=home/detail/base_id/44393 Song: http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=213954&T=1142 |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: MyST
Date:7/28/2003 10:36:28 PM
OK, I hope you take this post the way it was meant to be... helpful and in no way demeaning(sp??). I was wondering if you alone listened to your songs on the various speaker set-ups. Did you have anyone else listen to them to give you feedback? If you did, did they say it was muddy, or OK? If you listen to Heaven Could Have Waited on your site, does it sound muddy, or OK? What I'm getting at is, maybe you should get someone to listen to the same mix as you, and have them tell you what THEY hear. In all seriousness, maybe it COULD be your hearing. If there is a definite difference of opinions about the same mix on the same system, it could be beneficial for you to consult a doctor. Again, I hope you realize I'm only trying to help, and that I REALLY, REALLY, hope you don't have a hearing problem. Did you check with Creative to see if maybe it could be a problem with the Audigy 2? Maybe if you tried this... Download an 8-pack from Acid Planet, or use one you've already downloaded. Try to find one that has most frequencies covered, hopefully one with vocals. Open it in Acid...how does it sound? Muddy or OK? Now, without modifying anything (Except maybe compression if it clips, which I doubt it would) in the 8-pack, burn it to CD. Listen to it on a home stereo. Sound muddy or OK? If the 8-pack sounds much better on your PC than YOUR typical mixes, than it probably is a matter of gaining more experience. If the 8-pack doesn't sound better on your PC, but the 8-packs and/or your mixes sound much better on the home stereo, than it's probably the hardware limitations. I've never heard a poorly mixed 8-pack, so if it sounds bad to you on both your PC and the home stereo... it could be a hearing problem. Especially if someone next to you says it sounds fine. I suggested an 8-pack, because trying this with just your mix wouldn't work if you're mixing with faulty/low quality harware. M |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/29/2003 8:14:15 AM
Myst Dont worry i dont take any of the messages in any way other than helpful information. Yes i have had others listen my songs both on other stereo systems and having others download the songs from acidPlanet and My own site. That is one of the pieces of advice i follow strictly. What i believe it boils down to is being able to discern the frequency properly. Let's face it, reference speakers or headphones provide a clearer signal than the sets of speakers i have. It is also a matter of experience, i dont expect to pick this up in one fell swoop. I do want the right equipment that will aid in my learning, and i know a good set of headphones will do it. Anyone can go to Acid Planet and hear my mixes and know i just dont have the equipment.(Look me up there as TheMightyThor). The song "As If..." on acidPlanet is the last mix i made. For all i know, when a 320 kBps MP3 gets converted to 64 Kbps, there is significant signal loss there, as i also upload to garageband.com and they use only RA files. Most of my feed back comes from listeners on garageband.com. The reviews i hear are muddy, low levels. It leads me to believe that the equipment i use may not provide the spectrum i should be hearing if i were to own some form of reference equipment. With that said, I am looking at headphones with the links provided and on other sites and it appears a good set that will perform the job are Sennheiser, AKG's or maybe even a nice pair of Audio technics. There appear to be some Sony's out there but i have yet to be satisfied by some sony products i have used. I am looking at the Sennheiser 570 or 590 that appear to have a nice and useful response for mixing. When i look at Headphone specs, what is the most useful specs i should consider? Any advice in this area would also be helpful thanks in advance |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: ATP
Date:7/29/2003 10:01:15 AM
----- For all i know, when a 320 kBps MP3 gets converted to 64 Kbps, there is significant signal loss there, as i also upload to garageband.com and they use only RA files. ----- if you convert a 320 kbps mp3 to a 64 kbps Real Audio file, then yes, the quality of the sound will degrade quite a lot. so in that regard your mix matters only a little, as the sound will be pretty bad anyway. as for headphones, imho the best thing to do would be to take a cd which you know is mastered very well to the store, and ask to listen to it using several headphones. that way you get an idea of the difference in sound between the brands and types. also, the "character" of the headphones play a part in the way you mix will sound. for example, i have Sony MDR V700 headphones. low frequencies like bass sounds come out very loudly in these phones. if i were to mix my song so that it would sound perfect on the headphones, in reality the song will probably not have enough bass when played through most other speaker sets. something to keep in mind. finally, if you receive the sound via an amplifier (in which you've plugged the headphones), it's important to consider the characteristics of that piece of hardware as well. some have equalizers on them, and needless to say if you've pumped up the low frequencies using this equalizer you will hear this on your headphones also. i hope i didn't make it sound too complicated and involved. personally i master only by ear using my hifi speakers and headphones. talk of the wrong way to do your mix! :) fortunately i've got some experience on how my mixes sound on other people's machines, so i have a pretty good idea of what is acceptable enough for mp3. i've got some friends with a studio, which is where i will try to master a demo cd in a somewhat more professional way. ;) anyhow, hope you have fun with whatever headphones you end up buying. :) |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/29/2003 11:15:16 AM
----- For all i know, when a 320 kBps MP3 gets converted to 64 Kbps, there is significant signal loss there, as i also upload to garageband.com and they use only RA files. ----- ATP thanks for your response. I guess the converting baffles me because i am not the only one doing it. I thought there was some direct translation going on between the MP3 and the RA file because i hear alot of mixes on garageband.com that sound great. Granted they are getting it off a fully mastered CD and not using Acid to make their music, i dont know how many of Us Acid users actually use a site like GarageBand.com, but i thought i could for the most part. Any suggestions for what are the key points when buying Monitor headphones from any one else is greatly appreciated. thanks in advance |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: skagoogee
Date:7/30/2003 12:04:09 AM
Fostex T-20 or Sony MDR-V600 - you can get either for under $100 and maybe use the extra $150 for a good sound card or look for a USB interface for monitoring. Regardless of how good your speakers or headphones are, if you are using your stock computer soundcard your mixes will always suffer - they are not designed for critical listening. Once that is resolved, listen at low levels then you only hear what is sticking out in the mix. Also, listen to other songs you like with your headphones so you can get used to them and how they sound. Once your mixes are done, listen on many systems - boom box, home stereo and car stereo. I used to have a stock Chevy stereo but I would check all of my mixes through that because I knew how it should sound. Best of luck! |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/30/2003 7:11:45 AM
Skaoogee Hey thanks for the great advice, i am going today to get a pair of Fostex t50RP's or some AKG K141. I found a store just south of me (I'm in florida and there is NOTHING close to me), and they have several brands including behringer, fostex, AKG and Audio Technica, so i am bringing my old headphones wit me, a CD and i am gonna listen very carefully!! thanks again!! |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: metrazol
Date:7/31/2003 2:41:33 PM
I am a proud owner of AKG 141s for about 2 years now, and I just bought a pair of the 271s... I wish I could recommend the 141s after using these new phones. They're worth the extra money. I mean, really really really really really worth the extra money. The 141s were the most comfortable and best sounding heaphones I'd ever used until I got the 271s. They're only $150 or so if you look around, and they're worth it. I never thought I'd stop using my 141s, but wow, just wow. |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: dkistner
Date:7/31/2003 4:24:06 PM
I've got Sony MDR-V600 headphones, which a musician friend of mine said were "remarkably flat" for the price range. I think I got them for $99 at Best Buy. There's a newer version out (maybe 750's) that I've seen touted on other forums. I like mixing with my headphones. You just have to take breaks. |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: teknik14
Date:7/31/2003 5:56:20 PM
I agree.... it isn't a matter of getting the perfect mix on one system and leaving it at that. You have to listen to your mixes on as many systems as possible.... especially one you are familiar with.... HOWEVER.... you can't keep changing up your mix to suit a particular system after each audition, otherwise you'll be going around in circles, endlessly tweaking stuff only to re-tweak to accomodate the next system, and so on... Rely on your ears, and if you're like me and don't 'trust' your ears, use your best judgement by A-B'ing your mixes with a professionally done CD of a similar genre. IMO, the most critical part of the mix is a tight bottom end and silky smooth high end, which is not easy to achieve at the best of times. Also, try subtractive EQing... rather than boosting bands of lo and hi EQ, try subtracting the middle freq's you don't want. This will prevent possible clipping and keep the noise down. IMO, mixing and mastering is by far THE most difficult aspect of the songwriting process. -teknik14 |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: TheMightyThor
Date:7/31/2003 8:49:32 PM
Hi all thanks for all your comments. I am opting for the Fostex t50RP's. I listened to the sony's and passed on the AKG's after hearing the Fostex headphones. So hopefully my ears havent decieved me and i can get the right pair!!!!!! thanks to everyone!@! |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: mortalengines
Date:7/31/2003 11:32:40 PM
I have a pair of Yamaha S8M's & I don't remember that they set me back all that much beyond the fact that I had to buy a studio/pa amplifier- they are a little bright but, with enough referencing to my home & car stereo, I have some pretty good mixes in the long run- otherwise I have had some kinda sorry results mixing with headphones. |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: MyST
Date:8/1/2003 7:47:02 AM
I think everybody agrees that monitors are the way to go IF you have the $$$. It's always a matter of "It costs just a bit more..." Add up the "bit mores" for the better soundcard, monitors, microphone, CPU, etc. and it's alot more. Some of us have to make do with what we can afford to buy. If we always waited until we had a bit more cash, we'd be waiting more than we'd be making music. It's also a matter of priorities. My two teenage girls are going back to school in a month; how many hundreds of dollars do you think that'll cost me? Enough for monitors maybe? Guess what...I'll still be mixing with headphones in 2 months. M |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: MyST
Date:8/2/2003 9:08:10 PM
An inexpensive purchase you could opt for to help you would also be a couple good books. I bought the Paul White books called "Basic Mixing Techniques" and "Basic Effects and Processors". At $10 each from Amazon, I think you get alot of info for your dollar. Each has a description of the terms used in the books at the back. They're small pocket books of roughly 180 pages. M |
|
Subject:RE: Is there something?
Reply by: mortalengines
Date:8/2/2003 10:08:06 PM
Actually, while we're on the subject of resources in the written form, go to www.tapeop.com & subscribe to their magazine- it's free & is a great resource for all kinds of recording gear - that is the good stuff - then start looking around in the newspaper/pawnshops- I failed to note that my Yamaha monitors were used for about 125 bucks from a used gear outlet & have given me years of utility. Sometimes you'll run across people who just don't know what they really have on their hands gear wise. |