Subject:Question for the forum members

Posted by: Spheris

Date:6/17/2003 3:37:54 PM

Okay, want an opinion here, we have the rewire toy (personally I question why that versus DXI support - which is preferable since it is a standard and offers better compatibility with dx plugins or so I am told by everything I've seen so far, but go figure. I'm sure there is a reason.), some relative updates (seemingly midi routing works as it should) and a broken sound mapper (hence audio which is the primary application of the app is broken) 0 24 bit support, projects already done in 24 bit are suffering degradation and the app refuses to cooperate under any kind of cajoling to get it to map to anything other than asio 16/48, which has little to do with the projects other than to cause some strange sync behaviour among other things.


Weeks without an answer, a timetable or a fix.
Personally, I'd like to thank each and every person in the forum for helping and advising in whatever way they could through this.

I'm a mac person, only got a pc to start looking at alternatives to steinbergs products because, well. its steinberg and I think they make a great inside joke but not great products. Something about the way this is being handled by the hit and run - we know about it but no idea why and no idea when/if it will be fixed attitude in the few replies bother me quite a bit about this and I wonder if I made the wrong decision investing in this. I was impressed with acid to look at it in the office and even moreso to play with it for a time at home with my own newly bought setup before they upgraded it to non functionality. Don't take this as a flame, but I am kind of wondering and a little bewildered. Did the sony buyout render this null and void? Is it really broken or what?
Do I send this back to the store, do I wait? Should I care and just turn back to my trusty G4 and trust that someday steinberg will quit iritating me the way they endlessly do?

Am I alone in wondering why?
Granted, we aren't talking about a 20k protools rack but maybe that's besides the issue

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: AlDavis

Date:6/17/2003 6:14:44 PM

Logic is it for a G4 and the Pros know it!

....and people here are talking about bugs? Well... Steinberg has a truck load of them and the people are pissed-off: http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum2/HTML/044854.html

If you want to use Cubase, stick with VSTi only and stay away from the audio sequencer. Snakes come out of Cubase's audio sequencer: demons too!


You are warned!!!!!!

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: merlyn60

Date:6/17/2003 7:10:20 PM

On the whole, I'm personally very happy with Acid 4.0. I believe that the Sony buyout has had little effect (as of yet) on the quality of SoFo products. Acid 4.0d is basically a pretty solid program. Granted it took them a while to work out all the kinks and there are a few of them left, but I believe that the majority of Acid users are happy with 4.0d.

Personally, Rewire was never a big deal for me, but sooooo many people bitched and moaned about it that SoFo actually listened to their customers and took pretty quick action to give them what they wanted (i.e. not waiting till Acid 5.0 to introduce Rewire capabilities and including it in an update, which, if you haven't been a SoFo user for while, is VERY out of the ordinary. So I give them props for attempting to satisfy the customer.

In my opinion, VSTi is the standard for virtual synths, not DXI. However, I do believe that VST plugins should have been incorporated into Acid 4.0, but again, its not that big of a deal to me personally.

The introduction of midi into Acid 4.0 has made leaps and bounds in 4.0d compared to the earlier builds. I do, however, wish that the midi implementation was a bit more like other programs on the market (Cubase, Logic, etc.), but I accept the explanation that SoFo gives for it being the way it is (i.e. the midi function in Acid has to stick to Acid's rules.....being loop-based). It doesn't really bother me, personally, because bouncing the VSTi's to audio tracks gives more control anyway.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Acid's "audio" is broken. I can't speak to your particular problem because I don't know the particulars, but I can say that I'm "basically" happy with the sound of Acid. Anyone who has used Acid for any length of time knows that sound quality of Acid could be better (i.e the heavy crunching of your audio on the way out of the program), but I've learned to work around it. As far as the 24 bit support, your point is taken.

I think tech support normally steers away from giving hard and fast answers because:

1) They don't fix the programs. The engineers do. So, they would probably be lying
if they tried to say when exactly something would be fixed.

2) If they told you that something would be fixed by a certain time and it wasn't, that
would give you license to bitch if it wasn't done by the specified time. I would bitch
if I got an exact time for a fix and it wasn't done! I'm still waiting for a fix for my
Event EZbus ASIO problem, but I'm taking it in stride. My windows drivers work
good enough for now, so I can live. If you can't work period, I can understand your
pain and maybe you should dust off your G4.

Personally, I believe that Acid delivers on what it promises (at least with 4.0d). Is it an all in one App? No....its not (even though I finish full songs with it), but SoFo never said it was one. I've yet to met any music maker who is 100% happy with his favorite app anyway. To me, Acid is far from "broken" as an app, but again, thats my opinion. It may very well be that you expected Acid to do more than its capable of, and if thats the case then again, I understand your grief. However, if I were you, I'd keep running Acid 4.0 so you can get get comfortable with its strengths and weakness. Who knows? Maybe you'll find some work arounds that will make you happy.

Merlyn

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: AlDavis

Date:6/17/2003 10:24:33 PM

There you go Merlyn!
You said it all and it is the best advice anyone can give.

I have Cubase, Sona, Samplitude, Fruity Loops, Acid, Reason and so-on. All of them have goods and bads.

1.Cubase___Audio sucks but SX is better with 10,000 bugs. Midi and VSTi are great! I think Steinberg is midi King though. People fight a lot on their forum because of bugs. Go ahead and take a look. Bug are everywhere.
2. Sona ____Interface and DXi sucks but it get the job done though.
3. Fruity ___ A high class toy but good for laying down basic beats for Acid. I had seen good work done with thing!
4.Samplitude_ A learning curb that is out of this world. This is what Albert Einstein would use for laying down his tracks.
5.Reason___ The new version is better. No VSTi at all. .....none! Interface is like a real rack system. You have to use Recycle to slice-up loops and that sucks big time! It sounds good and it comes with it own synths for Reason only and nothing else can use them: Dang....that sucks too!

As you see, there is no perfect application. I use Acid because of the Acidized loops and it is simple with the explorer window. I take Fruity Loops for basic loops and I bounce it down in to Acid. Then I take everything from Acid and roll it over into Cubase (with my fingers crossed of course because Cubase is evil). Now I add the melody with VSTi from midi.

To me, there is no perfect application. Sometimes a combination of programs make a great tune. Download some demos and you will see that for some reason, you will always be using Acid.

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:6/17/2003 11:32:35 PM

ive used every software out ther and for the type of music i do acid is great.
its simple and powerful if your only recording 2 channels at a time.theres nothing better for working with loops. the midi is okay 4.0c (and a change in workflow) has stepped up the little problems and just one more problem in the midi department to go.
reason is great and these two programs together offer a producer just about anything a protools system can dishout.

acid 4.0c,reason,two uad cards,one t.c. electronics powercore card,and one pulsar card for the routing capabilities offers a pretty strong argument.

to merlyn60, i have a ez bus ,i bought for live purposes connected it to my laptop and found the asio drivers unuseable for anything.i dont know if its a usb thing,a usb laptop thing,or a ezbus thing but ,the asio sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
i wound up buying the rme multiface(or the steinberg version) and was amazed at the performance.

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: merlyn60

Date:6/18/2003 10:18:07 AM

Glad to hear I'm not the only one with EZbus issues. However, I haven't had problems with all the programs that I've used it with. Cubase SX runs flawlessly with the EZbus. So does Project 5 and Sonar. However, Orion has the same problems as Acid does. Sonic Foundry's explanation is that the EZbus is hard coded to an unusually small ASIO buffer size. According to Peter, Acid isn't capable of working with a buffer size that low, but they are apparently trying to get with the Event engineers about it. Don't know why the other programs work with the ASIO drivers, but I'm willing to chalk it up to the other companies being in the VST game longer than SoFo, so they may be ahead on the engineering a bit. I'm willing to cut SoFo some slack for that. My WMD drivers work well enough at .06 seconds for basic VSTi with out choking up. I'm happy with that for now.

Merlyn

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/18/2003 1:23:55 PM

Is any software perfect? Of course not. I think you're expecting too much.

If you want a perfect DAW, you're going to be disappointed no matter what you go with. Computers and related hardware and software are as "perfect" as the men that make them.

Even so, as a fellow user, I try to help out when I can. Recording and playback, for the most part, work fine for me. What exactly is the problem, other than the sync issue? What's your setup? Hardware?

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: Spheris

Date:6/18/2003 3:57:03 PM

The problem is the sound mapper - same as everyone else not having any luck with it

aside from that "small" problem I'm not asking for the perfect app,

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/18/2003 6:12:48 PM

I personally wouldn't use Microsoft Sound Mapper anyway; I would rather activate a specific soundcard.

Using 24-bit Windows Classic (or WDM) is a known issue as Peter noted. Until a fix is posted, you'll have to use 16-bit or use 24-bit ASIO. (Can you use 24-bit ASIO? Noticed in your other post that 16-bit/48 kHz works for ASIO.)

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: Spheris

Date:6/18/2003 7:39:53 PM

Strangely am I the only one who noticed this IS a problem?

no 24 bit with asio

and no reliable 5.1 either :(

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/18/2003 8:34:18 PM

>>Strangely am I the only one who noticed this IS a problem?

No, you are not the only one that noticed this problem. We are aware of it and are solving it. No, I don't have a date as to when the update will be made available.

The ONLY work around is to either
- work at 16 bit
- using 4.0b.

>>and no reliable 5.1 either :(
Can you be specific?
What is not working?
What is happening that is not what you expect?
How are you routing to the Audigy?

Peter

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: Spheris

Date:6/19/2003 12:02:55 PM

Seems be flying in and out of sync in 16/48
the 5.1 seems to do some strangeness, either lfe or the rear channels seem to go in and out depending on the mood of the app or the card, can;t tell which but it is a new thing with the update.

the asio is a bit twitchy, but that's normal for the audigys from what I can read about them.

I;d go to a better card but just made the investment in a pc and software
going to have to make do with it for now.

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: groovewerx

Date:6/19/2003 5:24:21 PM

cubase vst 5.1/32 r2 (NOT SX) is rock solid and as close to perfection as one can get. no bugs=no drama unless your system is not configured to handle it. which is the case for most complaints about any audio software.

DON'T BLAME THE MAKERS, THE USER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SETTING UP HIS/HER RIG PROPERLY.

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: RasKeita

Date:6/19/2003 6:59:12 PM

June Edition of Computer Music Magazine...

Interview with Inon Zur.

"With all due respect to technology, I'm a composer first so I beleive that it doesn't really matter what software you're using as long as you're happy comfortable and have few interruptions to your creativity by technical tasks. It's important that the machine isn't interfering with creating music."

Herein is where the problem with Acid 4.0 lies. (Ras Keita's Opinion)
Disruption of any kind stifles the creative juices that any artist gets flowing. To have the tool be a detriment rather than an aide, makes said tool useless.

Case in point...
I loaded Acid 2.0 out of the box onto my machine and "never," no never once did I encounter glitches and bugs. That is what prompted me to invest in 3.0, the solid, stable, reliability. I further invested in more SF products, and still hold them in high regard. The same applies to Reason, there has never been a glitch, a bug, a anything. Mind you I've had Reason since about a week after it first came out.

Acid has been and still remains the supreme "loop-based music creation tool" let me rephrase that " professional loop-based music creation tool" Cubase/Logic/Sonar do what they do. IMHO I think SF would have better served the customer, by continuing to enhance Acid's true character. For instance make Acid a VSTi plugin (along the lines of FL Studio) or perhaps a Rewire slave (such as Reason). That way Acid would remain as stable and dependable as we've come to expect, it would also provide much needed Audio Looping Support to the "Big Three". With the ease and rock solid stability of Acid Rewired into Cubase or Sonar I'd be in seventh heaven. I also think the customer base would grow leaps and bounds if Acid was made available to dedicated Cubase/Logic/Sonar users, I have used all of these applications and when it comes to working with "Audio Loops" not one competes with Acid, but acid doesn't compete with them as far as MIDI,VSTi,DXi support goes. My thinking tells me stick to what you do best improve on that. I will still continue to use Cubase SX and Sonar XL when I'm working with MIDI,VSTi,etc. because 4.0 is not up to the task, and going back to the original quote, the machine should not get in the way of creativity. This is by no means meant to be a sllam or as they say a flame it's just my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

So everybody remembers that post about starting a petition for Rewire, I say we start a petition for Rewire slave or Acid as VSTi...Level Vibes

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: Spheris

Date:6/19/2003 8:57:33 PM

Think the last two missed the point of the post, but then again, as steinberg proponents, somehow doesn't surprise me.

Thanks for replying anyway, if not to my question

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: groovewerx

Date:6/19/2003 9:56:13 PM

i must have overlooked your question or missed it completely in that flury of statements ending with question marks. i would be happy to answer your "question" if you can write it clearly as a single sentence.

as for my response (mainly to aldavis), its not about being a steinberg proponent. like any other user, i like what works best so just eat that chip on your shoulder.

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: AlDavis

Date:6/20/2003 3:26:08 AM

That's what I am talking about!

You know the market RasKeita. If Acid was a VSTi, I would have loops working hard in the background with Cubase and I would be working the heck out of midi with the other VSTi's for melodies and counter melodies. Dang.........I wish Acid was just a VSTi!

Subject:RE: Question for the forum members

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/21/2003 3:24:46 PM

call me crazy but for me everything is perfect.

i only used sound mapper when the asio performance wasn't good. asio is working great with this update. bye-bye sound mapper.

acid pro, reason, and my uad card equal heaven for me. i can sequence with acid or reason at the same time and apply my acid loops to my reason songs, plus add vst and dx effects to my reason synths.

yeah it would be cool if i could run acid as a rewire slave and use my logic effects or use dxi synths with orion and acid, but hey i'm pretty happy right now and everything works great.

i've used cubase and logic since the days of my atari 1040ste, i've owned 5 macs and still run reason and logic on my imac.

let me tell you none of those has given me freedom like acid pro rewired with reason and using my UAD card and waves plugs.