Subject:latency

Posted by: aldred

Date:5/30/2003 10:44:58 AM

Please help. I'm new and I've got a couple of questions about latency. I'm trying to record multiple tracks into Acid 4 through a UA-3D USB interface ....

-> I'm ok with a couple of tracks as long as they're not too complex. But once the sounds get complex (strings from a Korg Trinity) or the number of tracks are increased I get delays in the recorded material. It doesn't seem to matter if I mute tracks or change the audio settings. What can I do to get rid of the delay? My computer is P4 1.7, 1G RAM.

--> Am I wrong to be trying to use Acid in this way? If so, what should I be using as a multitrack? Any suggestions?

-> Is it worth buying the ASIO driver for the UA-3D. Will it make a difference?

-> This thread ....
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=178628&Page=0
.... mentions Vegas. Is that better as a multitrack?

-> I'm thinking about getting a midi keyboard so I can record with soft synths. Will I have the same problems in Acid. Here too, if Acid isn't suitable, what kind of tool should I be looking at instead?

Thanks
Mark

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/30/2003 3:48:28 PM

Hi Mark,

-If these are disk-based tracks and they're only a couple of them, you should be OK. You should be able to get away with about 4-5 tracks, maybe more depending on the state and configuration of your system.

You could try and bounce down snippets of audio if you're worried. (Solo the track, set the Loop Region over the audio you'd like to bounce and use CTRL+M with the "render loop region only option".

By default, anything smaller than 30 seconds will be turned into a Loop type track, which is always loaded into RAM.

-Not really. A lot of users use ACID like a multitrack, though it was not expressly designed for that purpose; that distinction belongs to Vegas. ACID's forte is looping, bar none.

-Buying an ASIO driver? An ASIO driver wasn't included or isn't available? ASIO is almost always the way to go for low (or lower) latency vs. MME or WDM. Strange it didn't come with one.

Since this is a USB device, it'd probably be helpful to mention that you should have the UA-3D on a USB port all alone by itself on a specific USB controller. Sharing a USB controller is not good for USB audio, due to USB 1.1's limited bandwidth.

If your UA-3D is sharing bandwidth with, say, a scanner or other peripheral, see if your system provides more than one USB controller. If it does, place the UA-3D alone on one controller and put all your peripherals on the other.

If you do not have more than one USB controller, consider buying a USB controller card like this one. Do not buy a USB hub. All those do is leech off your other ports.

-For multitracking, Vegas hands down. (See above.) Remember that Vegas is a different animal when it comes to its approach to audio. It basically takes the audio as it is; it will not do stretching to different keys and tempos like ACID does. (It's a true multitracker after all.) Use both apps' strengths to complement each other.

-Recording and using soft synths is really not an issue for me in ACID Pro (especially in 4.0c). MIDI is a completely different animal from digital audio too. The only thing I can think of is how complex the VSTi/DLS/ReWire device is and how much resources it will use. Some soft synths use a lot, and some use a little.

ACID was not meant to be a true MIDI sequencer. In fact, MIDI has to fit into ACID's paradigm (which is looping). As such, you can manipulate MIDI tracks like you can other track types such as Loops. Still, I find it easy to create and record MIDI tracks when I want in ACID, and I used to use Cakewalk all the time before I discovered the joys of digital audio. (And boy, we've come a long way, haven't we?)

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: fhodshon

Date:5/30/2003 4:10:07 PM

interesting comment about Acid as a multi-tracker. this is exactly how i use it. loops for drums/rhythms, and then i add multi-tracked bass and guitar.

how is Vegas different from Acid with regard to multi-tracking?

and midi, i used to use Cakewalk for midi as well. i'm hoping to switch over to Acid's midi capabilities before too long.

fred

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/30/2003 5:08:27 PM

Vegas can handle a number of disk-based tracks with no problem, whereas ACID can handle a a more limited number, say around 4 or 5, maybe more depending on the configuration and speed of your system.

Like I said in my previous post, ACID was not meant to replace a full-featured MIDI sequencer. If you're used to a staff view in your MIDI sequencer, for example, ACID Pro 4.0 does not have one. (However, an OPT plug-in can be made with one for use with ACID.)

Still, it's pretty good in this regard, especially if you're not too deep into MIDI. Reason makes the combo a knockout IMHO, as you can route your MIDI tracks right into Reason (and similarly record using that ReWire device as a soft synth). Pretty impressive.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: aldred

Date:5/30/2003 10:09:34 PM

Thanks. This is a big help. I'll give Vegas a try.

I'm just getting into PC audio and it looks like there's a lot to learn. I'm looking to set up an environment where I can input analogue audio from my keyboards and also MIDI. I have some shopping to do but haven't figured out exactly what I'll need. From what you say, it might not be best using Acid to record, mix or output the final product. I expect I'll need some studio software that can handle audio and MIDI. What's everyone using? I'd be glad of your recommendations.

I'm also thinking about getting a MIDI keyboard controller. My keyboards can handle MIDI, but since I'm going to have to buy a decent MIDI interface anyway I thought I might as well just go for a controller. Is anybody using the new Edirol PCR-50? How's the latency with the USB connection? Any recommendations here?

Thanks
Mark

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/31/2003 2:41:41 PM

Actually, definitely use ACID and Vegas together if it'll help out in any way. Both were designed to be modular with each other. (For example, you can render out your tracks in ACID Pro to bring into Vegas for mastering purposes. You can also use ACID Pro to create music beds you wouldn't otherwise be able to create in Vegas itself, like drum tracks with varying tempo.)

To complete the circle, pick up Sound Forge for its digital audio editing capability (though it cannot work with MIDI files).

The PCR-50 certainly looks nice, but I haven't heard anything otherwise yet.

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: salad

Date:5/31/2003 4:04:15 PM

mD...your help in these forums is awesome!!! Thanks!

Mark,
Is this P4 a laptop?
If it's a desktop PC, and you have free PCI slots. Consider....NOT using the UA-3D.
If your Korg has MIDI in/out, use the money that you would have spent on the PCR-50 on something like the Echo MIA MIDI (PCI) soundcard. ASIO driver is included.
The problems with UA-3D is it's powered up via USB (no AC adapter - very bad) and they want to charge you for the ASIO driver( I hate Roland sometimes).

Work on that soundcard problem by going to a local pro audio shop like Sam Ash or guitar center. Buy from them so you can return it if it does not work out. You may even spot a good deal on Acid Pro 4......with included loop libraries/8 pack samples.
I would get Acid Pro 4 first, then if you think you like the demo of Vegas.........
You can arm multiple tracks routed to multiple inputs from your sound card in vegas and record into them simultaneously. Acid will only do one stereo track at once.
If you get a chance.......drag some video into vegas, and play with that too ; )
Vegas, as you may already know, does not have MIDI.

You asked: " Is anybody using the new Edirol PCR-50? How's the latency with the USB connection?"
I just recieved my PCR-50 from Zzounds(They Rule!) earlier this week........funny you shoulkd ask!
It's pretty nice!
Warning....it has the option of using the AC adapter OR being powered via USB.
Use the AC adapter.....iffin you're gonna keep that USB souncard connected.
I'm using a USB Quattro sound card(M-Audio) powered by an AC adapter, and the PCR-50 does NOT work connected to USB without the AC adapter. It does work as a USB MIDI device, but I'm currently using it's standard MIDI out connected to my Quattro's MIDI in.
There is NO latency issue with USB. The latency you're experiencing is a sound card driver / playback buffer issue. USB is great for MIDI, and it does work for audio too, but if you want to start adding other USB devices....then DON'T use USB for audio.
Keep the Edirol sound card as a backup / mobile device. That's what I'll be doing with my Quattro soon(I think). It's been working pretty good actually.

What's nice about these small keyboards is they can be placed "in your face", in front of you at your PC, so you always have a controller for those creative moments or just checking out a demo of......Reason 2.5? or yet another free vsti.
The 50 is still light and short enough that it fits on my computer's keyboard tray, although the 30 would fit even better there. I'm modifying an old Invisible kybd stand to accomodate the 50 and my PC kybd in a 2 tier config.(removing my desks kybd tray). The whole contraption can slide under the desk when needed.
The "action" of the 30/50 is "ok", but I DO like the pitch/mod lever a lot, and all those assignable buttons, knobs and sliders!!! Easy access to the transpose and octave shift buttons is very cool. It's a keeper! Off to my immediate left is a new Yamaha S90. I'm using IT'S USB connection successfully for MIDI, so I didn't even need the MIDI ports on the Quattro anymore, until this pcr-50 came along. If I dump the Quattro for a PCI audio interface, then I can connect the 50 up via USB again with no worries.

Enjoy your hardware/software purchases.

Pat

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: aldred

Date:6/1/2003 3:01:45 AM

Thanks very much. This is all very useful stuff.

The good news is that I have Vegas already. I'll be testing it out. I've only had it a short while and never thought of using it as a multitrack for audio. It's been quite a shock to hear about the problems associated with getting audio into a PC. I work in graphics and although there are always limitations, there's nothing so basic as the input time delay problem in audio.

One final thing .... something strange has happened. Last week I was recording simple tracks in Acid no problem using the UA-3D interface. Then I upgraded to 4.0c and all of a sudden I'm getting a whopping delay even with one basic track recording. Same in Vegas. I can't think of any setting I might have made to cause this. I've played around with the audio preferences and it doesn't seem to make any difference. It's a mystery. Now I can't even record one track. The only other thing I might have done is temporarily connect the interface to a notebook then return it to my desktop. Any idea why this has happened?

Thanks
Mark

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: aldred

Date:6/1/2003 3:20:49 AM

Just took the interface back to the notebook and recording went fine. Because Vegas isn't recording well either, it looks like it's not a version problem. I have no other USB devices attached to either computer. The desktop is win2000, the notebook is winME. Looking at the DeviceManager, the notebook has a single RootHubController and a single UniversalHostController. But the desktop has two of each for some reason (because I have an additional front panel USB interface?). I tried deleting the controllers and reinstalling, but they both came back.
Mark

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: salad

Date:6/1/2003 12:05:00 PM

"......the desktop has two of each for some reason (because I have an additional front panel USB interface?)

Yes, some mobo's only have one(thus mD's recomendation for that USB card), others can have several. They "say" that the USB ports that are actually attached to the mobo(rear of PC) should be used for USB mice and kybd's. Supposedly the additional USB controller/hosts(front ports for example) offer better performance.

You may want to uninstall/reinstall the sound cards drivers. Get the latest ones.
Sounds like that desktop should be the better performer here!

Subject:RE: latency

Reply by: aldred

Date:6/2/2003 9:08:18 AM

It's a complete mystery. The front panel USB ports give the same delay. At the minute I'm compensating by using the 'User recording latency offset'. It's not perfect, but it'll do until I get my new equipment in.
Thanks for all your help.
Mark