|
Subject:Odd time signatures
Posted by: jumbuk
Date:5/27/2003 8:26:37 PM
When Acid 4.0 came out, I was disappointed that the new time signature feature only caters for multiples of 4 (3/4, 5/4, 7/4 etc). It can't handle 5/8, 7/8, 15/16 etc. There is a workaround, but it involves extreme tempos, so the Acid engine doesn't work so well. At the time, the Acid people recognised the issue, but said it wasn't high on their priority list. What I'd like to know now is, do we have any progress? Is it slated for release soon? I have lots of loops created for middle-eastern and mediterranean music, which I would love to use in Acid. I'd like to see some Loop Libraries from SF as well. - Jumbuk |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: braulio
Date:5/28/2003 7:05:33 AM
I had this problem years ago with a DOS-based MIDI sequencing program. I found that 2 measures of 5/8 fit nicely in one measure of 5/4. The only problem was the metronome didn't fit my beat, but once I had sequenced my drums, it was not a problem. |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:5/28/2003 12:39:02 PM
I'm not sure I understand. Are you referring to stock loops or your own? The majority of stock loops out there adhere to the standard 4/4 signature, so ACID can't magically transform that info over into a new time signature. This is digital audio after all, not MIDI. ACID only stretches key and tempo for Loops, not how many beats there are to a measure and what gets a beat. Your own custom loops could be way off tempo rhythmically and ACID will still apply the overall tempo to the file, only because you tell it to. The ability to change time signatures is a feature that helps you gauge material you throw at it. For example, I entered the Schneider TM contest, which used 7/4 as a time sig. The loops specifically for the contest were 7/4, while loops I added were originally for an even-numbered number of beats per measure (like 8 beats). Not a big deal, as all I had to do was chop/select 7 out of the 8 beats to include in a measure. It's even easier with One-shots. I only changed the project's time signature in ACID to 7/4 to help clarify things on my end. I could set it to 4/4 and the project would still sound the same. It's very much like Sound Forge's "Edit Tempo" tool; it does not change or alter the file at all, but only helps you monitor and gauge the file. HTH, Iacobus |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: pwppch
Date:5/28/2003 12:53:25 PM
Uh, you can define bascially any meter you want. 5/8, 7/8, 15/16, are all definable in ACID 4.0. You are not restricted to X/4 meters. Maybe I don't understand what you want to do. Peter |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: mmzz
Date:5/28/2003 2:46:29 PM
read the manual. its all right there. |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: MarkWWWW
Date:5/29/2003 7:07:13 AM
I don't usually pay much attention to these contests, but I'm sorry I missed this one - it's a nice track and 7/4 is pretty much my favourite time sig. I presume it's too late to download the loops now? I like your version too, though it's almost exactly the opposite of what I would have done with it - I'd have replaced everything electronic with something more acoustic/folky and redone the vocals completely, just keeping a ghost of the original vocal line as bvox. As you say, the time sig indication is purely for convenience of working - it doesn't affect the way things sound at all and I used to do stuff in 5 and 7 beats quite happily in earlier versions (though of course it was much harder to count where the bars really were when it all appeared to be in 4/4). Mark |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:5/29/2003 9:17:28 AM
Yeah, once a contest is over, it's too late. The loops are copyrighted and can't be used other than for the contest, hence they disappear come the deadline. Iacobus |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: SonicJG
Date:5/29/2003 11:26:30 AM
Sorry, I don't follow you at all. ACID 4.0 supports having anywhere from whole notes to 32nd notes get one beat. Could you please explain what you're talking about? Are you trying to have 2.5 beats per measure or something? Thanks, Joel |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: jumbuk
Date:6/1/2003 6:39:04 PM
Ok, everyone seems to have missed the point. Yes, you can change the time signature in Acid to anything you want. BUT has anyone tried to bring a 5/8 or 7/8 loop into Acid? How exactly do you get it to fit into the time sig? In the Acid Properties box for a loop, you can adjust the number of beats in a loop, but the "beats" are quarter notes. Same goes for Sound Forge. There is no provision for making a loop stretch for (say) 5 eighth notes. Joel comes closest by asking if I want fractions of a beat. Yes, I guess, if you can only think of a beat being a quarter note. I'm surprised I have to explain this - I went through this same process with SF the week Acid 4.0 was released, and they ended up acknowledging that this was not correctly implemented. Yes, everyone else, I know that there are workarounds. However, the whole point of support for odd time sigs is that you don't need workarounds. And some of those workarounds (eg treat 5/8 as 5/4 and double the tempo) create artifacts because of the extermem tempos involved. - Jumbuk |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:6/2/2003 9:45:54 AM
"BUT has anyone tried to bring a 5/8 or 7/8 loop into Acid?" Well, since the Schneider TM contest contained 7/4 loops, it was just a matter of changing the project's time signature to 7/4 and bringing those loops into the project. It's all relative, essentially. I could set the project's time sig to 7/8 and ACID wouldn't know the difference between what note value gets one beat. As I said, the time sig is there to help you gauge. Use the Chopper to take a loop that is, say, four beats long and chop it up to fit seven beats. For example, paint or draw the four beats normally, then choose three of those beats and insert them across using the Chopper's tools. HTH, Iacobus |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: jumbuk
Date:6/2/2003 9:47:37 PM
Your example imports a 7/4 loop and then sets the number of beats to 7. I never said you can't do that - of course you can. If you import a 7/8 loop and set the number of beats to 7, double the tempo and paint 2 bars, the loop will play back at the original tempo, with 2 bars representing one 7/8 bar - except that the Acid engine doesn't work so well at these extreme tempos. You get artifacts when you try to sync other loops (I have tried it). Also, the whole point of having the time sig right is so you can see where the beats and sub-divisions fall, so you can sync single-hits properly. Sure, you can work around the limitations of Acid, like with some other software, but the whole point of Acid 4.0 was that it was to have support for odd time signatures - it doesn't! - Jumbuk |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: Angel909
Date:6/2/2003 10:57:04 PM
If you havea 7/8 loop, that means that it's 7 beats to a measure and an 8th note gets one beat. Acid handles that, because it s exactly the same as 7/4 except that you're calling an eight note the primary unit of time. What acid doedsn' t do is support tempos that aren't a whole number of beats per measure. does anything? that might be neat for poloythrms A-9 |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: SonicJG
Date:6/3/2003 1:04:12 PM
Jumbuk- We just had a half-hour conversation with our in-house musical mad-scientist, and he helped set us straight. :) I think we now understand what you're getting at--you're looking at things like hemiola's, and such, correct? Support for this won't happen for ACID 4.0, but if we can swing it for 5.0 (lots to consider, perhaps even adding more information to loop properties), we will. In the meantime, perhaps copying a file's material, and making loops twice as long, may help matters a little? Cheers, Joel |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:6/3/2003 2:19:50 PM
Ahhh...I think I see... To illustrate, let's say you have a time signature that has an 8th note assigned to have one entire beat at 120 BPM. (Let's assume four beats to a measure here; number of beats doesn't actually matter.) Let's say you take a kick drum One-shot and paint across every 8th note on the grid. Technically, since we've assigned the beat to an 8th note at 120 BPM, it should sound the same as if we assigned a beat to a quarter note at that same tempo. But it doesn't. The tempo actually doubles because ACID is still assuming a quarter note gets a beat. Is this what you were talking about? Iacobus |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: jumbuk
Date:6/3/2003 8:13:46 PM
Yes, that's right on. The SF reply hits the mark as well - if you want to combine (say) some 3/4 loops with 6/8, you need to have all the loops mapping to a timebase where 1/4 is the unit for a "beat". Am I the only Acid user that wants this? In ethnic music, 7/8 and 5/8 are pretty common time sigs. There are a few commercial loop sets (not SF) that contain fractional time sigs for Greek and other Mediterranean styles. Hope SF add a few to the list. PS I love Acid, use it all the time. Nothing said in this thread changes that. - Jumbuk |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: jumbuk
Date:6/3/2003 8:14:47 PM
Great, thanks for looking at this. See also my response to the next post. - Jumbuk |
|
Subject:RE: Odd time signatures
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:6/4/2003 1:45:12 PM
I sure wouldn't mind having it. For now, we just have to make sure we transpose everything to a quarter note getting a beat as you've noted. Amen to your comment about ACID. Iacobus |