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Subject:Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Posted by: David_Kuznicki
Date:5/25/2003 12:44:17 PM
Now that Acid 4.0c may or may not (fingers crossed) have Rewire, it's time to see what damage we can REALLY do with Acid, Reason, and some VSTi's! So, is anyone using Acid w/ Sampletank? Any good, bad, or other experiences...? David. |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: dkistner
Date:5/26/2003 3:08:49 AM
David, I kind of stopped using my VSTis in Acid (using Acid, rather, as a mixer and effects processor of dry mono waves recorded out of SoFo midi-routed Harmony Assistant>Fractal Tune Smithy>Chainer), but I can tell you a very frustrating experience I've had with SampleTank (XL) in Chainer (and others report it in other hosts) that you need to watch out for. If you load more than 8 instances of ST, it will start refusing to load instruments or will drop them out after you've loaded them. This has nothing to do with the combined/total polyphony; it's a bug. I have to essentially use one instance for each instrument at times when I'm recording out individual voice lines to files (using Tobybear's excellent Channel Grabber 2, working great for me even if an "early beta" version). This has been such a maddening problem that I'm having to rethink how (and how often) I use SampleTank. It's irritating, since I have all these great soundfonts converted to SampleTank format and I thought SampleTank was going to be the be-all/end-all for me. If I want to hear a composition in its entirety as I compose, and record it out to waves without having to do a lot of unloading/reloading, I'm essentially stuck with 8 instruments unless I use something else instead of ST. So just be aware, if you encounter this in Acid, that it isn't Acid's fault. |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:5/26/2003 7:35:45 AM
Hi David Have you thought of trying NI's Kontakt? You can load up to 16 different sampled instruments per VSTi. George Ware |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: ozzborn
Date:5/26/2003 8:54:21 AM
i use sampletank and all other vsti's in v-stack via midi on a seperate computer i have the sonic synth collection and it sounds good but if 4.0c has rewire i will use reason with the sonic refill instead (i prefer reason because it solves alot of needs in one program extremely well - very good,very simple,very powerful sampler,great drum sampler, malstroms increadible etc.) |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: salad
Date:5/26/2003 9:09:48 AM
I too find Sampletank to be buggy, and have not been using it much. The free version seemed to work ok. My NI FM7 performs so amazingly well that I would be willing to invest in more of NI's apps. Kontakt is the first to come to mind, as I want to get a hold of and load up Bardstown Audio's Bosendorfer Imperial Grand...... Purchase...."wisely"! Pat |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: David_Kuznicki
Date:5/26/2003 11:09:28 AM
Wow! Thanks for the responses! This is the first I've heard of Sampletank being buggy, but I've just started looking into it, too. I'm looking for something with a better bunch of samples than Reason; something I can use as a VSTi. I was hoping for something reasonably cheap (under $500), where I could get some 'real' sounding strings... I can't get the String or Factory Orchestral disk to sound right, for the most part (although the grand piano isn't actually too bad). And I'm scared to go near Kontact, or any of the NI stuff right now. Go read their forums sometime-- there's damn near a mutiny going on over Reaktor 4 & Session. If you thought Acid Pro 4.0a had problems... that's NOTHING compared to what these guys are dealing with. So-- are there any other good samplers out there? I using them to compose for short films, should need to know that. I've heard good things about Virtual Guitarist (for guitar stuff, obviously!). Thanks! David. |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: IanF
Date:5/26/2003 12:44:34 PM
Just to add a lttle balance here SampleTank XL with Sonic Synth is one of my main VSTi I use it without any problems whatsovever in Cubase FL Studio and (Acid until acid bombs out). In Cubase I have used its multitibrality to have sixteen different instruments playing (not all at the same time) If you want good quality sounds without having to do lots of tweaking at a reasonable price get SampleTank you should get it cheap now coz SampleTank 2 is immenent which could mean a free upgrade when 2 is releaded. I also have Virtual Guitarst its good, but once the novelty dies off it rarely gets used. Ian f |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: ozzborn
Date:5/26/2003 2:43:29 PM
again i dont use the vsti's in acid , i use them in v-stack strings- the edirol orchestral is suprisingly good, atmosphere is amazing but it might be to lush sounding, its washed in alot of reverb but exellent quality. its a shame you feel that way about reason because some of the best strings ive heard is on the sonic refill for the nn-xt sampler. its generally the same data off of the the sonic synth but there seems to be more of a selection of strings and pads in the sonic refill. i own them both.(sonic synth and sonic refil) the stock strings in reason are o.k. but the sonic refill delivers. as far as realism goes i try to manipulate keyboard/virtual strings with string loops (downtown stings,downtown orchestra, and the 4 sonic foundry sting cds) if possible i dont score movies but i use alot of strings in my music. trip hop - hip hop - neo soul - rap/rock |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: David_Kuznicki
Date:5/26/2003 2:56:16 PM
--its a shame you feel that way about reason because some of the best strings ive heard is on the sonic refill for the nn-xt sampler. Which refill is that? I certainly might be looking in the wrong places... I have the strings refill, but that was for the nn-19. David. |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: dkistner
Date:5/26/2003 5:27:44 PM
Someone I respect who has a lot of money invested in all kinds of things and also does a lot of classical work says he just couldn't understand why people were raving about SampleTank's instruments. He said for people who are looking for realistic strings but can't afford the really good stuff, to look at Garritan Lite. Of course, if you can afford the pro version, that's the thing to get. I agree with him on the orchestrals that come with Sample Tank. Even XL is woefully deficient, IMO. You can't take it too terribly seriously when they have just a few woodwinds that aren't all that great, either. They don't have an English Horn, for Pete's sake; can't be too serious about orchestral music. If I had realized before I bought XL how geared toward "modern" (loud, overblown club-type) music-making it is, I wouldn't have bought it. And, yes, it's buggy. They want you to shell out big bucks to upgrade to SampleTank 2 when it's released. I have a friend who has the Eidoral Orchestral package, and he said it was very buggy in Acid. He loves the sound of it, though; just can't use it in Acid. Or couldn't a year ago. Maybe that's changed. Believe it or not, that free Violin STR V1 soundfont at the Sound Site sounds really good, at least to me. And some of the instruments in the St James Orchestral bank are quite nice, too, if handled correctly. I'm using Jeskola XS-1 as my soundfont player, and I've been quite happy with it. Of course, Kontakt or something like that can play soundfonts, too. Of course, as the respected friend I mentioned above said, even his high-end Gigasampler instruments sound awful unless he processes them. He also said to watch out for the new Ambience (which is very near release) because it sounds as good for reverb as gear he's paid $5,000 for. (Watch kvr-vst.com.) |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: dkistner
Date:5/26/2003 5:29:30 PM
Oh, and Ian, there is not going to be a "free upgrade" to SampleTank 2. Most people are hoping the upgrade won't be more than a few hundred dollars! Maybe if you buy it 24 hours before 2 hits! |
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Subject: sonic refill by sonic reality
Reply by: ozzborn
Date:5/26/2003 6:17:32 PM
sonic refill is the name of the disk. its the same people who make sonic synth try www.sonicreality.com the edirol dosent work great in acid(not many do because of the diffrent ways vsti's are implemented). to avoid vsti headaches in acid i just midi out to v-stack. its the best of both worlds |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: IanF
Date:5/27/2003 3:48:13 AM
Diane your probably right about there not being a free upgrade but it will still probably be considerably cheaper than buying ST2 cold. Regarding the SampleTank patches, I believe your missing the point. SampleTank XL as bought is trying to be all things to all people, whats a hard trance kind of guy going to do with a bunch of French Horns or the orchestral guy with a Heavy Metal type guitar, if the user thinks its lacking patches in a certain area then they can buy the EROMS to fill the gap. At the moment I only know of one orchestra type ST EROM and thats symphopny strings but more are being created all the time. I do agree that if you bring some ST instrument to forward in the mix they do sound kind of fake (ie most of the Brass patches) others sound great. Sure if orchestral sounds are your main thing and you dont want a load of other stuff then Garritan lite will do nicely. As for ST being 'buggy' well peoples systems vary so much all I can say is that I use it all the time in Cubase SL and FL Studio and it hasnt let me down in any way. I dont really use VSTi that much in Acid so I cant comment. Ian F |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: dkistner
Date:5/27/2003 7:51:47 AM
Ian, you're right about ST XL trying to be all things to all people; for those people who are not trying to do orchestral-type work, it's probably great. And I've learned from it, so it's been great for me, too. I know about Symphony Strings, but I haven't purchased it because of "inadequate" remarks from other users trying to do the same kind of music I am (classical). I'm very curious now, though, and wonder if you might do an experiment. I don't know how it will work in your hosts, but load up 9 instances of ST. Put two instruments in the first 8 instances (as I do when I'm recording a sync-bar instrument and an individual voice line from each instance out to a wave from Chainer). Set the polyphony to whatever you want in each instance, even 8. Now, what happens when you try to load one or more instruments into the ninth instance? Do they load? Yes? Great. Now save it as a preset config (fxp, whatever your host does). Get out of the host, then reload it. Load the fxp. Do you still have all instruments properly loaded? If you do, I certainly want to know which host it worked in! Having nine instances of ST running at once may sound like a strange thing to do, but for my work flow it's not. I've checked with the IK Multimedia gurus, and they've all said that it's not the instances themselves so much that drive up CPU usage (which remains reasonable for me at even 10 instances) but the number of instruments and polyphony of each. It's the inability to load instruments in that ninth instance, no matter what the total polyphony is, that's killer for me. It's almost like it sees 16 instruments loaded PERIOD (2x8) and it's not going to take any more. |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: IanF
Date:5/27/2003 8:14:29 AM
Sounds a bizarre way to work :-) but OK Ill try it when I get home (Im in the UK so its 2pm in the afternoon here) |
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Subject:RE: sonic refill by sonic reality
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:5/27/2003 2:09:36 PM
>the edirol dosent work great in acid(not many do because of the diffrent ways vsti's are implemented). What problems are you having? I've tracked up to 14 instruments in the Orchestral no problems, and yes I am automating the patchs, pans, volumes and the internal effects. Acid 4.0b Win XP Pro sp1 P4 1.7 ASIO on Digi 001 and Gena Ron Jones |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: dkistner
Date:5/27/2003 5:11:16 PM
Ian, probably is bizarre, but it's the most expedient way I've found to get my compositions from the idea stage to recorded audio (without sacrificing what my scoring program does better than any sequencer out there) that still gives me the flexibility to do different mixes. I've wasted a year trying to find ways to do it more efficiently, but because of the way my scoring program works, the Chainer/separate instances route is the only one that works for me...and I'm not into soloing/recording 16 different voice lines separately in real time. However, using XS-1 instead of SampleTank (and converting those SampleTank instruments I do want to use into .sf2 format with Extreme Sample Converter) looks like it's going to work well for me. Then the waves come into Acid for mixing, and it's a piece of cake from there. My irritation with SampleTank XL is that, for a $365 plugin that purports to be limited only by max polyphony and CPU/RAM, it doesn't do what it advertises it can do. As long as I don't exceed max polyphony or my computer's capacities, I ought to be able to load as many instances as I want...but 8 seems to be the brick wall. |
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Subject:RE: sonic refill by sonic reality
Reply by: ozzborn
Date:5/27/2003 7:32:07 PM
since ive used acid 4.0,it seems that every diffrent user has a diffrent expiernce with acid and vsti's. some vsti's work in 4.0 and some dont. on my machine ( pentium lll 1.2 - 512 ram - 3 pulsar cards - dual head matrox video card) sampletank did work once but once i uninstalled and reinstalled acid it would no longer see it. acid doesn't see virsyn tera, and one or more dont work but other vsti's crash it(like kontact,and exsp24). and the iceing on the cake is the midi montoring which is frustrating. |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: IanF
Date:5/28/2003 2:49:57 AM
Diane I tried it last night and yes you are quite right there is the 'Diane Bug'. In both Cubase and FL Studio the 9th instance of Sample Tank choked. Its not a problem us regular users would normally come across but nevertheless it is a bug. So I retract my earlier statements SampleTank is now a wortheless piece of junk :-))) Ian F |
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Subject:RE: Acid 4.0 & Sampletank
Reply by: dkistner
Date:5/28/2003 7:43:27 AM
Ian, thanks for doing that test! Confirms it for me! :) ST is not a worthless piece of junk, though. I think I mentioned that I'd done a lot of soundfont conversions into ST with Extreme Sample Converter. After I had them all organized, I copied the SampleTank Instruments dirs to a separate drive, then backconverted them all (including all the ST instruments!) to .sf2 format so I can use them in XS-1. (Took 20 minutes for about 10,000 instruments!) I can now load all 16 channels up in Chainer for individual voice line recording, and also have an instance of ST for quickly auditioning all the instruments at once before locking in what I want to use. Then it's just a simple matter of loading the .sf2 equivalents into XS-1 and bypassing ST. It's working great! And there's about a 30-35% CPU decrease when I play the instruments in XS-1 instead of ST. So I'm a happy camper. Where there's a will, there's a way, they say. |