Subject:Mic problems, sound card?

Posted by: faye

Date:4/7/2003 1:03:31 AM

Hi all, well I'm on a harsh learning curve right now getting my mic
set-up and recording in Acid and Sound Forge. My vocal recordings
over music keep coming out sounding a bit dampered or muffled and too
bassy. I'm not sure if it's the sound card. I'm using SB16 Awe64 sound card (which I think may be the bottom of the line, not sure) and an audio technica mic (AT3035 audio cardioid condenser mic) with no wind guard or muffle on it...
What's the
best or ideal sound card to use when recording on your pc or into
sound editors? I'm not sure if it'll make a difference but I hope it
does.

Thanks

Faye

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: philsayer

Date:4/7/2003 4:44:55 AM

In my experience, spending more on sound cards will give you a better performance, but something as profound as what you're describing has a different cause. More money = better rejection of unwanted noise, for example, and a cleaner sound, but assuming the SB16 is working okay, you probably need to look elsewhere.

You don't mention whether or not you're using a mixer to get the signal from the mike to the PC, and if you're plugging the mike directly into the card, you won't get a useable sound - a condenser mike needs a pre-amp, which is provided by the mixer. You could try plugging a dynamic mike in and see how that sounds - if it's okay, then that pretty much confirms the card is okay.

It's not unknown, either, for people to talk into the back of a condenser mike (to my acute embarassment, I've done it myself) which would also produce the effects you describe! But if you're plugging the mike into the mic-in socket on the board, you'll need a mixer for the reasons stated above - its output needs to go to line-in, by the way, not mic-in.

I'm by no means an expert, and I welcome contradiction/correction/enhancement of this posting.

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: Spy

Date:4/7/2003 5:14:54 AM

Just to add to what Philsayer, er..., said. A mixer isn't totally necessary depending on what your future plans are. For instance, if you plan to make/arrange/mix all your music within the PC and only record vocals you can use a microphone pre-amplifier ('mic pre' for short) and connect its output to the 'line in' of your soundcard.

If, however, you intend to record one or more instruments as well as your vocals you'd be better off buying a good quality second-hand analogue mixing desk. Plug your mic(s) and instruments into the desk and have the output from the desk go into your 'line in' on your soundcard.

Another thing to note, when recording your vocals try to make sure that the room/space your using isn't too 'live' and that you are the right distance from the mic. Try not to move around too much whilst singing as this can cause all sorts of effects on the recording (though, depending on what your trying to achieve, this can sometimes be a good thing).

HTH






One Love, Spy!

P.S. If you can afford it you're probably best off using a mic pre and a mixer.

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/7/2003 9:38:20 AM

In addition to what's been said, all things being equal, which in your case they currently are not, you will NEVER be able to capture what the AT mic is capable of with a low end SB card. My suggestion is to get a decent card first. There's a ton of threads about sound card suggestions on the SoFo forums, but to summarize, Echo and Maudio cards seem to be the most popular and work great with these apps.

At entry level I would recommend the Echo Mia ($175) card and one of the small new UB model Behringer mixers (under $100). You would get 2 pretty decent mic pres, phantom power and several routing options for you setup.
Unless you plan on getting into totally professional endeavors, a setup like this is capable of excellent sound, especially with your AT mic.

drbam

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: philsayer

Date:4/7/2003 12:56:08 PM

I agree with other posts, but still reckon the symptoms are indicative of a pretty fundamental problem which needs sorting before buying a new card...

I'm not sure if Faye is singing or not - I had in mind she (he?) was maybe rapping or dj-ing over the music... but a woolly, bassy sound is surely not down to a budget sound card...

If you're buying a mic pre-amp, might as well go a bit further and buy the tiny Behringer mixer - the next-to-smallest one they do has phantom power, EQ, and suitable output to feed a sound card - I only know this because I'm about to buy one to make my home studio portable as well - the Mackie I use at home is too big and heavy!

Don't write off Creative Labs stuff - Audigy/Extigy specs are actually quite good, and the stuff I record (mainly commercials and corporate video narration voice-reads) has had only praise for tech quality. What puts me off the more exotic stuff is the number of info requests I find here and elsewhere! (Plus, Creative Labs stuff is affordable, well-supported and available almost everywhere.)

I'd bet you'll have no compatibility issues with their gear - sadly, that can't be said of some other makes, though I've no doubt they produce a better sound. It's a trade-off between out-and-out perfection and ease of use.

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/8/2003 12:21:46 PM

This is a pretty good discussion. I just wanted to correct you on one of your statements philsayer.

"a condenser mike needs a pre-amp"

Actually a condenser MIC doesn't necessarily need a "Pre-amp" to work, what it needs is "Phantom Power". A condenser microphone actually has a pre-amp inside of it, that's why phantom power is required, to supply power to the pre-amp. Now this pre-amp inside the microphone, is a low level pre-amp which means you will probably need a mic-pre external to it, to be able to get a good recording level from the mic. Seeing the original poster got sound recorded at all, I will have to assume, they probably have phantom power and some type of mic-pre and didn't mention this in their signal path, but it is a very important step.

From the description of the problem, it sounds like the symptoms of the "Proximity effect". Which will add additional bass to a vocal when close micing them (within 1 ft.)and making the vocal sound muddy. Therefore, there are 2 solutions. 1. Back the vocalists at least 2 feet away from the mic. (If you get too much room noise, try solution 2). 2. The AT3035 has a 80Hz bass roll-off switch. This switch is there to reduce the "proximity effect", which increases the bass when close micing anything. Turn this switch on (ie the -12dB/octave position).

Philsayer,
Some other pointers:
"bassy sound is surely not down to a budget sound card..."

Not really true, but in this case you are probably correct. You can get bassy sound from lower-end cards, due too the frequency response of the card, not reproducing higher frequencies correctly.

"If you're buying a mic pre-amp, might as well go a bit further and buy the tiny Behringer mixer."

Actually, my feeling is if you buy the behringer mixer you are going a bit further backward. A dedicated Mic pre-amp is much quiter than that behringer mixing board and also some mic pre channel strips, come with compressors,de-essers,exciters, phantom power, in one nice little 1 rack mount space. That mixer will basically have a much higher noise floor than a dedicated mic/pre channel strip, and come with cost effencient mic pre-amps, and all those additional mic-pre amp noises get added together along with the eq's on every channel, and the bus/output amps. So as far as which is better, is a matter of opionion. If you want something that does a little bit of everything but isn't the best quality then go with the small mixer. If you want the best recorded signal, go with a dedicated mic-pre/channel strip.

I have a feeling with your last couple statements about the sound cards and mixing board, you might not have seen the greener side of the fence yet and is understandable. When I first set up my mastering studio I had a small Yamaha analog mixer. I never ran any signals through it, I just basically monitored through it so I wasn't all that concerned with the noise levels, the mixer caused, but I always thought it was a very quiet mixer...after all it said it was in the manual. Upon upgrading to a more expensive Yamaha digital mixer, I was shocked on how noisy that smaller mixing board actually was. I guess I had grown accustom to the background hiss noise. I plugged in that new digital mixer, and wondered..."is this thing on?" Oh yeah, it was on, the noise floor that let me know the other mixer was on, was now gone.

I had a similar experience when upgrading from a sound blaster sound card to my current Echo Gina's. I thought that sound blaster, that's a pretty quiet sound card, I can do good work with this, and I did and people always complemented me on that work. Then I upgraded to the Echo cards, and now I look back on those beginning days, and think of what a hack I must have been.

Take it from someone who designs audio hardware for a living, there's a reason why some sound cards cost $20, and similar one's cost $200. It's the components,engineering, and noise rejection techniques used in these more expensive cards that make all the differences. You'll eventually find out, in the most part you get what you pay for, in the sound card department.

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: Spy

Date:4/9/2003 7:59:23 AM

^ What he said! Although, I suspect from what you've said in this (and other) posts that you are on a modest budget and so if you have to prioritize I would, upgrade the soundcard (it can make a world of difference), then purchase a good mic pre, then the mixer.






One Love, Spy!

Subject:RE: Mic problems, sound card?

Reply by: philsayer

Date:5/3/2003 3:32:03 AM

All comments duly noted, Rednroll!

I confess I'm not familiar with the mike in question, and on re-reading the original post, I also recognise that we are collectively limited by the written word and our perceptions of sound... what to one person is "muddy" may to another person be acceptable or even preferred.

You are completely right about sound cards, but in my own case there is a trade-off between convenience, cost, availability (I'm in the UK) and out-and-out performance.

My output is virtually all straight mono voiceover, and the end-user will use it for anything from telephone on-hold messages to corporate video narration on CD/DVD, or for commercials broadcast on FM or AM, after the addition of further voices, SFX, music, etc.

As much of this work is low-profit, high-volume stuff, I keep the standard as high as possible, but accept some limitations, as do customers. To keep costs low, it's basically a "spare bedroom" operation, with a computer (as quiet as I can make it) whirring away and a central-heating boiler one floor below!

However, compared with most others in the industry, it's generally considered better than average - and the joy of Sound Forge is the ability to use the very effective noise gate, and sometimes the EQ facilities, to polish things up post-recording.

It's a shame, but due to the transmission processors used by the radio stations these days, whatever high quality sound I produce will be squeezed, squashed and mangled somewhere along the line by the end user, and for that reason I need equipment that'll be reliable, cause no compatability problems and will be easily replaceable in the event of breakdown - Audigy gives me that.

I could invest in more soundproofing, commercial premises, expensive hardware etc., but that would drive costs up to the point where I'm too expensive for the market. If I need really high quality sound for a project, I just book a "real" studio (a choice of at least 5 within a 20-mile radius) and pay the money.

Whatever happened to faye, I wonder?

:o)

All the best,

Phil