Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk -ACID Product Family

ACID Product Family

Subject:Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Posted by: FlickBookHero Date:4/6/2003 2:21:39 PM Good idea or not? SF wants to do MIDI - but have made a mess of it and CakeWalk are now supporting acidized loops. I like using Acid, but also need the midi and score printing that cakewalk/sonar has. (I do film scores and write quartet music as well as the rock/electronic acid stuff). Would be nice to have it all in one - or maybe I'll switch to Logic/Mac next time I update my setup. Any thoughts? Peter. >>> http://soundsichiban.com <<<
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: Jessariah Date:4/6/2003 4:46:24 PM Logic? Yuck. Both have their strong and weak points. SoFo, hands down, develops the most user-freindly & intuitive software. The learning curve on Sonar is much higher, but I like it for midi and actual recording. The biggest mistake SoFo ever did was try to make Acid everything to everybody. They should scrap recording and midi and replace all of it with Rewire -- then they could continue to improve the elements that make Acid such a great app. Maruuk took a lot of heat in this forum over that, but I think he was right. As a consumer, I see it as I'm paying for versions with more features than I use (I have other programs for that), and those who want it are screaming cuz it doesn't work right. I actually think they all work well together. I would rather see them expanded than merged. More $$$ keeping things upgraded, but better for the pros in the long run.
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: Iacobus Date:4/6/2003 8:48:44 PM I don't want the ability to record in ACID removed; that's how I record the majority of my custom loops. The feature was always there to begin with and just got better with ACID 4.0. (Example: Measures are automatically marked so you can easily work with a recorded file externally in something like Sound Forge.) MIDI? Well, I hardly use it for playback/recording but it is nice to have. (More of a digital audio person myself.) MIDI sync should always be there for those of us who use external hardware. ReWire is for those who work within software exclusively. Be fair to those of us who use external hardware in this respect. Iacobus
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: Jessariah Date:4/7/2003 12:12:11 AM I know where you're coming from Iacobus, but you have to admit one thing: anyone working professionally does not do it with one app. Personally, I've never used Acid to record. If it's been there all along, then fine. But 4.0 gave me the feeling that they were trying to be everything to everybody. Personally, I think that was a mistake. Acid is a wave looping tool. THE BEST. When it tries to be a midi tool and a virtual synth tool and etc., it starts to lose the focue that made it the flagship product it was from the beginning. Just my opinion. I love Acid. I'l buy 5.0. I have no interest in VegAciSonaForge 6.0d.
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: jam Date:4/7/2003 4:49:27 AM "but you have to admit one thing: anyone working professionally does not do it with one app" -> I'm sorry, but it's WRONG. Some friends who run semi-pro or pro studios work with 1 app for almost everything, it just depends on the app. Some of them work with Samplitude 7 Pro, others with Nuendo and one with Saw Studio. They all offer GREAT professional sound quality and are very complete. Personaly, i don't use them, too expensive for me. I run Acid for music construction (almost loops, some home made, some FREE collected from the net) but for everything else I use little brother of samplitude 7 called: MAGIX Music Studio 2003 Deluxe, which offers Audio Studio 2003. I don't want acid 4 to change, maybe midi is not the best part (as well as the FX - it could be the most important stuff to improve in Acid for me) but it can be useful for little things to do. My 2 cts and point of view, taht's all. jam
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: Gordian Date:4/7/2003 7:50:40 AM Well since v4.0b I use Acid and SoundForge for everything. And I make MUSIC instead of reading handbooks with hundreds of pages ;-)) Go SoFo!! Greetings Gordian
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: merlyn60 Date:4/7/2003 11:25:53 AM I'm a die hard SoFo user, but I have to admit, I'm interested in seeing what Cakewalk's new Project 5 is all about. It looks very interesting, plus it supports Acidized loops as well. If the grid is as user friendly as Acid's is, it may give Acid a run for its money (at least for those who don't need to record directly into the program. Merlyn
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: Maruuk Date:4/8/2003 1:59:18 PM SOFO has already told us in their last quarterly report what they intend to do: sell off their digital desktop division and get into industrial/educational/government business. According to the report, Madison sees no future in consumer software--too competetive, too costly to keep up with the Joneses. Trouble is, the major competitors don't really need what SOFO's selling--they've all got full audio, full midi, looping and ReWire and lots more with relatively robust products. Doubt they need a few million lines of buggy code, however user-friendly it used to be.
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: dkistner Date:4/8/2003 2:37:10 PM I like Acid for loop-based music construction, too. I don't do anything in midi in Acid now, but if I had the ability to import and arrange midi loops, then export the whole thing to a midi file of the arrangement, that would be an extremely handy thing to have. I could then pull the midi file into my scoring program and do refinements therein, routing it to Chainer so I can hear the instruments I'm going to be using as I'm shaping them. So if SoFo does add the export-midi-arrangement feature, Acid will do with tremendous ease something that nothing else I own can do for me...I don't care if Acid's midi editing features are not that great. Just muck around, come up with a rough arrangement, get the notes out. That would be of enormous value to me.
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: retrobeats Date:4/8/2003 9:22:33 PM well, from what I hear...and we'll know soon enough.... Giga Studio will have either VST and maybe rewire(and a sleuth more of features in 3.0).....and working in the business, this all about caps all the platforms for either VST or REWIRE as giga is the standard for samples softwares...actually, even hardware........ it's fluid, and sound beats Kontact and Halion is a joke. This makes Acid the only platform playing with 1980's midi protocols. Hope SOFO gets it together.... it needs either rewire or VST. For what it is, REWIRE would be the best option..... One could then score with Cubase SX/ Or Nuendo 2.0 (also another major upgrade) and use Reason (synth) and Acid (for percussion). As some of you might now, synching Acid is a royal pain in the butt sometimes....for the past few months I've been using reason as my idea pad, while using SX, Giga, and Trilogy as my software. I have quite a few loop libraries too but haven't bought any since 3.0 release as it's becoming old,,,,,mainly due to the issue of working with other platforms. Cheers, retroz
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: retrobeats Date:4/8/2003 9:36:37 PM Then again, pinnacle bought Steinberg......Apple Logic...... So, the only real option (since Steinberg will be the leader in PC audio (unless Sonar can move away from the home recording enthusiast (or) perhaps Digi might start to allow PT to use 3rd party hardware......that SF needs to sell Acid to a company than can really make an impact with the Midi/Rewire/VST and sell it to Midiman, or Pinnacle(Steinberg). Predictions: PC 64 Bit OS, MSFT supported ) Platforms AMD/Steinberg, (and now I read Adobe is catering to the PC more than the MAC due to the higher RENDERING of the PC) and ath the same time, Avid/Digi (Protools, Media Composer) losing ground more unless they ditch their hardware stance. Sonar will lose ground at first as they may not have the development to move into 64 bit computing right away (Steinberg has been working with AMD for quite some time) MAC: Apple 64 bit CPU from IBM, Logic become the platform of choice for die hard pro-tool users, while also (APPLE) cutting into their (Avid) line with Apples Final Cut Pro. Again, putting more pressure on Digi design, Digi loses market share to Apple in Pro Tools, Avid Media Composer and Avid Express. The above forces Digi to focus on the PC more. This in turn leads to the PC becoming the either Steinberg/Pinnacle or Protools/Avid machine. (( this is why Pinnacle bought steinberg....do you see now? It's moving to the PC in the professional realm soon)) as unlike the MAC, 3rd party hardware drives the market - - also a winning combination. (3rd party software, hardware vs proprietary (MAC). The PC will win hands down. Not to mention, this is also a main reason why AMD will win out in the long run... (same concept) 3rd party hardware(Nvidia, SIS, VIA) vs Proprietary (intel) solutions. The final stage will be when and where MSFT comes into play and what they decide to do (purchasing Pinnacle, or Avid) to take on the MAC/Logic. It's always been personal. Where does SF come in? Depends. Hopefully they'll make the right decesion, but I don't think SONAR is part of the picture. Not when you view it from the POV that I have just layed out. cheers, retroz
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: coolout Date:4/8/2003 11:20:39 PM my 2 cents: 1. cakewalk wouldn't touch acid, they're happy putting out competing products and that's a good thing. cakewalk's graphics suck and their GUIs are full of clutter. power with ease of use is what keeps me working in acid pro. all i need is rewire. 2.as both a mac and pc user i'm very opinionated. retrobeats predictions are probably all wrong. large studios with big budgets will always prefer dedicated hardware to a host based system REGARDLESS of advances in cpu power. why...because they work with the least amount of headache. everything from the audio interface, dsp card, software, to the friggin' harddrive is DESIGNED to work together. ask any protools TDM owner(i know a few), the level of stability is magical. look at any issue of Mix or Billboard magazine, digidesign rules the high-end market, hands down. they haven't lost any ground at all. if anything they've had great success in leveraging the protools brand-name to the small and mid-size studio market with the digi001 and mbox. the fact is that logic actually expanded the digi customer base by giving protools users the best of both worlds. rock solid hardware with a great sequencer. by the way, the cpu upgrade path is always marketing hype bullsh*t. there's always some new, great, ultra-fast, next generation something on the horizion. i worked for a large computer manufacturer so i know the game. make the customer believe they always need the newest, fastest and most expensive solution available. IMHO proprietary or dedicated hardware stops this madness. on my acid machine i'm using a UAD card along with my normal host-based plugins. i have more power than i really need for a while. at about 60 tracks and numerous high quality reverbs and classic compressors i think the most i've pushed the card was at 75%, while my lowly 1.8ghz p4 was at 50% cpu usage. who wants to upgrade a cpu every 1.5 years just to keep up with the joneses?
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: Iacobus Date:4/8/2003 11:35:04 PM That's a great point, Chris. To add, "doing everything in the PC" is all fine and dandy, but I'll take recording my hardware guitar effects processor into ACID Pro over any software plug-in any day of the week. Iacobus
Subject:RE: Sonic Foundry Should Merge With CakeWalk Reply by: retrobeats Date:4/8/2003 11:54:32 PM I probably didn't make it that clear, but one of the points I was trying to make was that 3rd party offerings work - in regard to hardware, one of the items that I mentioned was that Protools/Digi/Avid, in time, will feel the pinch unless they open up their software to utilize other hardware. Sure the pros stick with Avid Media Composer and Pro Tools (which by the way cost's about $100,000.00(Avid)) per set up. But the matter is rendering. When you can render a 1/2 hour spot in 5 minutes vs 45 minutes, the CPU power wins hands down and in order to compete, PT will have to move to other options. This of course puts pressure on the remainder (Steinberg, Sonic Foundry, Saw) and Logic. Then of course, there is rumor (which is just that "rumor') that APPLE may go the way of the PowerPC IBM 64 bit x86. Some say this would revolutionize the Mac platform as users would then go out and build their own MAC (x86), buy Apple hardware/software and be able to use existing x86 (Sonic, SX, Nuendo) software - only time will tell. And in regard to Protools/Avid, you have to remember most Audio Post houses use Macs.....this is being targeted by Apple with Final Cut Pro and Logic and digidesign will focus on the PC. Hardware always wins.....but being able to pick and chose your hardware as well as your software is what matters. Sonic foundry misses the boat if they lack REWIRE or VST options as Acid is becoming more and more isolated with each new update that arrives on the market.

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