This 30 days thing is rubbish, well where I am from it is. If they advertised something, then as long as you made no changes, you have to get what you paid for.

Send a letter off to consumer affairs stating your complaint, and also send a copy to Dell stating how they ripped you off.

Matt,
I am sure it is of small consequence to you but, I am about 4-6 weeks away from purchasing a computer and I have been gathering material from several webboards for weeks now. Dell WAS first on my list. They now have dropped off the list completely for these shabby tactics. You may cut and paste this and send it to Dell if you wish.

Barry

Yeah, Dell has lost its luster---It was just a matter of time in these cost cutting days----

Stay away from Gateway to they put to much on the motherboard so you have a heck of a time trying to upgrade anything. Also they have a little sentence in the fine print saying once you open up the computer and fire it up you cannot ever sue Gateway but must go through arbitration in Chicago IL. Who the hell is going to travel to Chicago to mediate a computer. I live in Maine and it would cost me more to mediate than the computer would be worth.

"Also they have a little sentence in the fine print saying once you open up the computer and fire it up you cannot ever sue Gateway but must go through arbitration in Chicago IL. Who the hell is going to travel to Chicago to mediate a computer. I live in Maine and it would cost me more to mediate than the computer would be worth."

Therein lies the perfectly legal "scam".

M

Do you have to go to Chicago? Perhaps all you need to do is contact the arbitration center there through eMail, phone, registered mail, etc.

Even still though, that's a pretty crappy thing for them to do. Any company that won't represent itself directly to the end user is hiding something that they know is wrong.

File a complaint with the Better Business Bureau AND www.bizrate.com and SCREAM about it. If not, it will only get worse down the line.

And, this is NOT off topic. We are all computer users, and it is VERY important to know that this sort of stuff goes on.

I started my "home/personal" computer life with a Dell, not counting where I was working at the time, and they were instrumental in me learing even more about the computer world, but I don't think I'd go to Dell or Gateway now...not that they don't fill a niche, but I think I would go WalMart, and for sure, go local were I to get another, or update what I have presently...tho WalMart would prolly not help service-wise, they present a cheaper product, and prolly not updateable unless you sign a deal with the devil...'course, there actually are some fairly cost-effective makers of DAWs out there, and one would assume stellar performance and techsupp, but me, with 98SE, the best I could do currently is a removable drive bay system, cpu/mobo upgrade and that's it; anything more than that's gonna be a new computer, and migrating stuff to and from, so even my midi files wouldn't suffer cuz they'd be .wav eventually anyway...but XP..? what a hassle, call up MicroSloth...you know, it's just gettin tougher instead of easier...or maybe just another tower w/o the raid crap, but then you're barkin at 2 cpu's...aw hell with it...!

A few comments:

I read that Dell had laid certain hardware traps for the unwary. Specifically, Dell had rearranged the pin configuration on its power supplies and motherboards. The power supplies were industry standard ATX units as were the connectors. However, with the pin reassignments, you could not replace the Dell power supply with an off-the-shelf unit nor could you salvage a Dell power suply for use with another motherboard. To do either would cause irrepairable damage to both components. I don't own a Dell, or any other proprietary computer for that matter, and this power supply story might just be another urban legend. Does anyone know for sure?

Contracts - no contract between parties can deprive one of the parties of any rights arising under applicable federal, state, or local law. Gateway can write anything it wants into a sales agreement. That doesn't mean that Gateway's preferred terms and conditions have any meaning or are enforceable in any particular location. Consumers have different protections in different states. The contract must conform to the law, not the other way around.

And while we're on the subject, the great American Poet, Arthur Guiterman penned the finest description of a contract ever to grace the printed page.

Here 'tis - "A Scrap of Paper"

The document we sign with zeal
And every pledge requireable,
Because the terms therein, we feel,
For us are most desireable.

And this agreement come what may,
To every clause obedient,
We'll keep forever and a day
As long as its expedient.

I just had to share.

JackHughs

My experience with Dell:

Since I didn't need the DVD drive which was OEM'd with my office Dell machine in the office, I removed it and installed it in my home machine. So far so good. When I went to install the WINDVD software (which was provided with the Dell) on my home machine I was greeted with a rude message to the effect of "This isn't a Dell machine, goodbye!" Now, I paid for the DVD drive, paid for the software, and just because I no longer needed the DVD drive in the original Dell machine, I can't use the software!

Couple things... Makes no difference if you got a Dell, Gateway, whatever, anybody can make a lemon and so-called tech support for all of them is well, less than it should be with their first tier "techs" so unless you get to someone who knows what they're doing... lots of luck.

I can understand people buying their FIRST computer. After that, build your own. Believe me, I'm about as clumsy as they get with a screwdriver. If I can assemble a computer, you can. Not only will you get the exact components you want, you'll probably save money and then you can always point to the box and say I did that.

BillyBoy,

I'm ashamed to admit I've purchased SEVERAL computers. Maybe I'll build next time. I guess I've always been intimidated by the possibility of researching the components wrong, and therefore winding up with incompatible stuff. Is there a site that walks one through the process?

With regards to Dell, my last three PCs have been Dell boxes. I don't have much complaint with Dell, but then I've never had an experience like Matt's. Suffice to say, with a company that big, at some point someone is going to get screwed. I don't think it's necessarily the right conclusion, or the right advice to others, to recommend eschewing Dell altogether. Complain, absolutely. As wcoxe1 said, we have to remind these companies we're paying attention and WILL act when mistreated. But to define a company that large by Matt's experience alone is probably not so fair.

That said, I'm glad you gave 'em hell, Matt. I'm rather a bastard about that myself. When any company screws with me, I come back hard and relentlessly. I've never failed to rectify what I consider to be a bad deal. Of course, it's frustrating that I or anyone else should need to go such lengths for fair treatment.

Scott

Hey, Baysidebas...
My daughter had almost exactly the same problem on her HP computer.
The primary hard drive on her computer failed, and she replaced it with the primary drive from another computer that she doesn't use anymore.
It fired up fine, but then it turned out that the CD burner wouldn't work because the computer was no longer recognized as an HP computer. (Even though the CD burner itself wasn't even HP -- it was manufactured by a 3rd party, and integrated by HP into its system.)
She finally gave up on the system -- and HP -- altogether, opting to buy a system from a "lesser known" brand that didn't try to make everything proprietary and locked-in.
Ernie

For the past 15 years or more, I've purchased my computers (one every 2 or 3 years) from a local shop that builds them to my desired specs. They use respectable brand-name components (Intel, ASUS, NVIDIA, etc., and their system prices are definitely competitive with the national brands.
Then later if I do have a problem with my system, I know exactly who I'm taking it to for service, and they treat me right.
If there's a reputable independent shop in your area that assembles systems, it can be a really good way to go, instead of buying a national-brand system.
Ernie

"I'm ashamed to admit I've purchased SEVERAL computers. Maybe I'll build next time... Is there a site that walks one through the process?"

Does Swiss cheese have holes? You bet. So many sites I don't know where to start.
Sorry, my goofy sense of humor kicking in.

A good way to kind of get your feet wet is start with a review of whatever motherboard you're interested in, most have dozens of reviews where hobbyists go to extremes discussing the highs and lows. Like about twenty web pages to describe just the CASE! Ditto for various components.

http://www.overclockers.com/topiclist/index19.asp

If you don't want to go all the way from scratch, many companies sell what they call 'barebone' computers, that's just the motherboard, maybe memory, the CPU, installed. You just put in the graphic card, whatever else you want, get a case, etc..

The hardest thing about building your own isn't that difficult, rather the danger (minor) of damaging the CPU itself. The pins are EXTREMELY close together, they bend, break very easily and putting the required heatsink on can crack the case of the CPU if your screwdriver slips because of the pressure you need to apply with a screwdriver to extend the clamp. That about the only 'hard' part. Like I said I'm all thumbs with anything mechanical. So if I can do it with my big meat hook hands, I guess just about anybody can. Once you get the first one under your belt you'll probably never buy another Dell or Gateway or HP...

Oh... almost forgot. If you decide to do it, remember you can get a OEM version of Windows at far less than retail. Usually you need to buy any piece of hardware at the same time to make it "legal", aside from that its the same old Windows CD.

I was very surprised when I contacted Dell about upgrading and was told it was not possible. Had to buy a new machine. So I found what I wanted with a Sony VAIO refurbished machine. No problems! If you want the most for your money, go to the SONY website and check out the refurbished VAIOs. Really good deals.

Here's my 2 cents:

I started off buying machines from Packaged Hell (ur, Packard Bell) and then Dell. Both of these worked OK, but when I started getting geakier I found they were difficult to upgrade (as mentioned above) and I realized they were including inferior parts and a bunch of crap (mostly software) that I didn't want to be pay or get "free."

So then I went to the other extreme and started building my own machines, which have worked well eventually (quite an education).

If I had to do it over, I would split the difference and got to a reputable (relatively) small-time shop that specializes in building lean, mean machines for audio/video work, to save me the time and money of figuring out all the incompatibilities (particularly when an new OS like WinXP comes out) The big boys like Dell and Gateway are just not appropriate for this kind of specialized need (in my experience).

Here is one such specialized shop, Studiocat. I've bought software from them, but not any hardware or custom machines. They are HIGHLY rated by many members of the Cakewalk Sonar newsgroup, which has been my prime source of geek knowledge for years now (this forum is catching up!) [And no, I have no connection to Studiocat]

http://www.studiocat.com/daw.htm

Thanks for the suggestion (and thanks to everyone for your input).

I noticed something interesting at BizRate. For the past three months, Dell has had a 74% positive rating and 17% negative. However, in just the past month, they have received 50% neutral and 50% negative reviews. No positive reviews. Is Dell going donwhill or are people (like me) finally starting to realize that the shiny, happy people in their ads aren't the ones who work for them?

Anyway, thanks again to you all,
Matt Iserman

Scott,

I hope that my experience with their tech/customer support was an isolated incident; however, I am sure that I am not the only one they're selling stripped down parts to. In that regard, my experience is not an isolated event; it's more likely that this happened to most Dell customers unbeknownst to them.

I dislike how litigious our country has become but I can't help but think that some enterprising individual and lawyer would see this as a potential class-action lawsuit. How many thousands of people have received a different product from Dell than they thought they had purchased? How many millions has Dell made by selling sub-standard parts?

Thanks again for the feedback,
Matt Iserman

Wow. I checked out the xicomputer.com site. All I can say is: SPEC OVERLOAD!!!

I wouldn't even know where to start. There were like 20 options on graphic cards alone. I consider myself a standard-issue techie, but even I don't want to research all that stuff. Can anyone recommend a configuration for a kick-ass video workstation (with a strong price-performance ratio)? How much is too much? I was quickly up to $5K on the xicomputer system builder and could easily have gone higher.

What's a guy to do? :)

Tomshardware.com is another good source for info on various hardware parts and compatibilities. Beware, it gets pretty complex pretty quick....

Re: building your own, I would concur with Billyboy that the actual mechanics off putting all that hardware together in a box is not that difficult (compared to, say, working on automobiles). The hard part is getting informed enough to know what to put in that box.

G

I've purchased a few "combos" from motherboards.com and been very pleased with them. They have an interactive website that lets you choose a motherboard, processor, and RAM for a pretty decent price. Their software makes sure that the options you can select are compatible with each other. As a nice bonus, they ship the combo with the processor, RAM, and heatsink/fan already assembled! That takes care of the hardest part for you already.