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Subject:HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Posted by: patrick2003
Date:2/25/2003 4:44:24 PM
I feel like i was screwed, assuming this was a full production program to find out it cannot handle more than a couple extended tracks without latency issues. if I thought it was simply just a looping program then I wouldn't have bought the damn thing. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: wcreed
Date:2/25/2003 5:03:07 PM
Maybe you’re a limited, offtrack production fool. There is a demo you could have tried... |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: drbam
Date:2/25/2003 5:24:51 PM
Nothing in Acid's promotional material implies that it is a multitrack app. Actually its pretty darn clear that its not. And your question really should be directed to Sonic Foundry customer support. drbam |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:2/25/2003 9:42:41 PM
Patrick everybody and his mother knows that acid's strong point is "looping". You've got yourself to blame and the person who recommended it to you. Do some more research before you commit next time. I answered your other thread. It looks more that the problem is on your end and not acids. If you would like some help fine but take a breath and go back and post your specs and we'll find out. Ed. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:2/25/2003 11:59:02 PM
What a load of BS! SOFO specifically states in promo material, and I quote... "UNLIMITED AUDIO TRACKS" That is a lie, it is a phrase also specifically used by multi-track products, and it is intentionally designed by SOFO to mislead consumers into believing that Acid is something it is not. At the very least, any users who've been duped into this SOFO semantics trap deserve their money back in full. In standards and practice within the audio software industry, UNLIMITED AUDIO TRACKS is always used to convey that the product and the developer supports full-length digital audio tracks, both playback and record, limited only by the hardware. That is always synonymous with MULTITRACK AUDIO. That is the accepted, standard use of this phrase. In cases where the track number is limited by software, as in many of the "light" versions of major multitrack apps, the maximum number of tracks is always clearly stated. Any other use of this phrase to describe something much more limited than that, in fact, a feature "NOT SUPPORTED" by SOFO's own admission, would be fraudulent and actionable. Patrick deserves credit for bringing SOFO's dirty little secret into the daylight. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:2/26/2003 12:10:25 AM
So please educate the rest of us as to how I can run a 22 track one shot mix with added loops with fx[now] with my cpu maxing out without crashing? On my 600mhz p3 with 384 ram XP Pro yadda yadda yadda...Isn't that "limited only by the hardware" or not? Hmmmm...pretty weak dude. Ed. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:2/26/2003 1:02:12 AM
The honest reports from unbiased posters are quite consistent: On average rigs or less, sync and popping/zapping problems appear consistently with moderate audio track useage. Dedicated workstations are able to utilize higher track counts. Patrick's experience, however unfortunate, is not uncommon. This is exactly why SOFO admits in here (though tellingly, NOT on it's packaging or promotional material): "Acid is not supported as a multitrack application." End of story. The promotional phrase "UNLIMITED AUDIO TRACKS" goes well beyond misleading, since it comes straight from a professional digital products publisher, fully conversant with the standards and practice of the medium. The SOFO legal dept. should be apprised of this fraudulent claim, and eliminate it at once. But I notice you didn't even try to refute this central point, but tried to deflect it elsewhere into some personal swipe as usual, ed. Now Patrick, while the condition you refer to is in fact a "latency" of sample playback, the term "latency" is commonly used for something different. What you're experiencing is generally referred to as "synch" problems, or "out of synch", as the tracks no longer play in synchronicity with each other. In Acid, the prime devil here can be making sure your long audio tracks are labeled as "One Shots" and your settings insure playback via RAM. This is an easy mistake to make when you're starting out. If you have done this right, and are still experiencing synch problems, rest assured, you are not alone. "Latency" is used most commonly to describe the delay of an audio or midi signal caused by hardware processesing/and/or the software (drivers/engines) interactive with that hardware. Most commonly, it's experienced in monitoring, which makes it impossible to record overdubs as one or more signal paths are delayed relative to the main playback tracks. It's corrected to an extent by adjusting buffers and other settings, and optimizing drivers. Whew, that's enough for one night. Oh yeah...GO REWIRE!!! |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: vanblah
Date:2/26/2003 12:06:23 PM
So far I have only been limited by my hardware in ACID. I believe that ACID can support unlimited audio tracks, but can not be used as a multi-track app. I have yet to be shown otherwise on my own system. True, I don't do track after track of one-shots; I use it mainly for looping which is what everyone who does even a modicum of research knows that is what ACID is for. There is no standard in place that I am aware of that says unlimited audio tracks refers only to multitrack audio (At best it may be a de facto standard ... but I don't think it's even that). Unlimited audio tracks means simply what it says (whether it is loop based audio tracks or "multi-tracked" audio tracks is determined by reading what the intention of the software is). |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:2/26/2003 1:35:10 PM
van--You are obviously NOT aware of it. So what? Every single audio digital app that has an engine optimized for multiple tracks of audio whose number is limited by hardware alone uses the phrase "Unlimited Audio Tracks". It is an absolute standard. And Multitrack does NOT refer exclusively to apps which can record more than one stereo track at one time. Sonar is a multitrack recorder--done any 16 track live records on it lately? SOFO has chosen to violate that standard by using it to describe a product which, in THEIR OWN WORDS, "...is a loop-based product. We do not support Acid as a multitrack application. It is possible to record a few lengthy tracks of audio in Acid, but we recommend you convert to loops whenever possible." I must reiterate for Patrick and anybody else trying to lay down some audio tracks: Make absolutely sure you label them as "One Shots" and check that settings optimize one-shot playback from RAM (and get at least 512 megs of it--come on, they're practically giving it away!). This will buy you the maximum trouble-free useage of audio tracks within the environment. And if it still doesn't hold synch, remember, SOFO told you so! |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/26/2003 1:53:18 PM
*sigh* Quite frankly, if you can't distinguish between ACID Pro as a loop-based music tool and a multitracking app (Hello, what's Vegas? Proverbial chopped liver?), that's your fault. We've had this discussion before, ad nauseam. You should of done your research, friend. Using ALL CAPS is a tad childish. Take that attitude elsewhere, not here. I simply refuse to help people who act in such a manner. BTW, you cannot get a return on opened and downloadable products. You might have found this info had you actually made an effort. (Hint: Customer Service.) Iacobus |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: patrick2003
Date:2/26/2003 4:52:27 PM
Gentleman, thanks for the responses, it's obviously a touchy subject... and I think it's a healthy debate. I obviously thought that Acid was unlimited audio tracks ("full production") (and so did the guys that sold it to me at the music store) and yes, it's probably my own fault, but I'm sure I'm not the first one to discover after purchasing the software and using it. I am recording one shots, but setting the playback via RAM, I'm not sure where that is, but it's possible I have it set correctly already. To fill you in I have Dell with a 60GB Hard drive, Pentium 3, 512 memory, ESS Maestro 2 Sound Card, a dedicated external SCSI hard drive with another 40GB of space merely for sound files. All my processors, IDE & External Hard Drives are like 7200 rate transfer or whatever. not totally up on the hardware lingo, but.... The the strange this is that my Acid project files that contain approximately 6 or so tracks of *.wav files are only 52K in size, so I assume that it is optimized to run playback via RAM at that size... it's usually around the 7th track that I have SYNC issues (thanks for the correction), but obviously I can render a mix from that file and start a new project to add additional files. but obiously that's not the way to do things. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: patrick2003
Date:2/26/2003 4:59:28 PM
oh.. and 600MHZ ... any input on this and my other system stuff from my previous posting? |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: bgc
Date:2/26/2003 6:25:12 PM
Hi Patrick, Acid Pro has unlimited tracks, it's true. However, the application has been opitimized for loop production (RAM based storage) and not streaming tracks (disk based) like Vegas is. Also, I hate to say it, but your workstation is very underpowered compared to what most people are successfully using in these forums for serious (lots of tracks and effects) audio production. Most processors people have are running at 4-5 times what your PIII is. Time to upgrade. You'll be happier. bgc |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:2/26/2003 10:05:20 PM
While my sentiments echo bgc's, there's more I'd like to add: -One-shots play only from RAM if they are 3 seconds or less. (File size is not an issue to determine whether the One-shot plays back from RAM; the length in time is.) Any longer than that, and they stream from the hard drive just as Beatmapped tracks do. Loops always playback from RAM no matter how long. -You can actually switch a One-shot to a Loop by double-clicking the track's icon in the track list and changing the file type to "Loop". (natch.) Experiment with different files to check this out. When changing, ACID will give you a warning if the amount of RAM the newly-changed Loop will take up will be high, in addition to giving you the actual amount of RAM the Loop will take up and the option to go ahead and do it anyway. Note that a large loop can take quite a chunk of RAM. A single three minute loop would eat ~50 MB or more of RAM. -52 K total? Are you sure? WAV's are typically large (because they're lossless and are not compressed). Could you be mistaking the 52 K file size for the ACD file itself? -I'm working with a remix for the Stockhausen contest at ACIDplanet. So far, I have a total of seven One-shot tracks. About four of them are at or under the 3 second limit. All of them playback together fine. I did work on a Tommy Lee remix that had 30+ tracks. Four of them were long One-shot tracks. I hit a performance ceiling on that one with my system. As long as I didn't playback in 24-bit, I was fine. I have an 800EB MHz Pentium III w/384 MB PC133 SDRAM (brand name (Corsair), not generic), two 7200 RPM hard drives, a Radeon 32 MB DDR (AGP), an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and an M-Audio USB Duo. The base system is meager, yeah, but I plan on upgrading in the near future to a better mobo and RAM with CPU. -Any pro audio hardware vendor worth their salt will tell you the same thing I'm about to: Recording and streaming digital audio (especially high-quality 24-bit or better) is quite the complicated task. You're better off keeping your system optimized for the role of a DAW (digital audio workstation) rather than a general purpose computer. The less hardware and software you have that don't relate to a DAW situation, the better off you will be. Operating system choice has a lot to do with it too. Windows XP and Windows 2000 ace Windows 9x/Me any day, merely because both XP and 2000 are based upon the stable and robust Windows NT operating system. -Choice of soundcard/audio interface can help too. You can certainly get away with Sound Blaster and compatible type soundcards, but I would bet you'd get better performance with a pro-quality card like those from Echo or M-Audio, as those cards are aimed squarely at DAW users. HTH, Iacobus |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:2/26/2003 10:27:03 PM
How sad... Maruuk you didn't even answer my question again. I totally can't find a reason anymore to even try to take you seriously. Do you use acid [the program],hows 4.0b working for you? Straight from the horses mouth: Acid Pro 4...ACID® PRO 4.0 is the latest version of Sonic Foundry's award-winning loop-based music creation tool that allows professionals to produce original, royalty-free music. Should it have said also...And its NOT a multitracking APP. Please refer to our flagship Vegas 4? It doesn't spoon feed you like that but it does in not so many words. Sofo always advertises vegas somewhere in a acid promo. ---In Acid, the prime devil here can be making sure your long audio tracks are labeled as "One Shots" and your settings insure playback via RAM. This is an easy mistake to make when you're starting out---How did you import a wave file into acid without it being a "one-shot" by default? Maruuk how does one do this? As soon as one drags a wave file from the explorer page into the track area the beatmap wizard comes up and you have to manually click it off for it not to. I import it>>beatmap immediately>>>done. If not its a one-shot. What are your methods of running a "pro" remix session? ---And if it still doesn't hold synch, remember, SOFO told you so!---Actually the "user community" told you so every single day. Forget about sofo for a minute... Are you calling all of us in the acid forum community a bunch of liers? Ed. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:2/26/2003 10:27:56 PM
Patrick... 1) What OS are you using? 2) A web site for this card? ESS Maestro 2 Sound Card...Is this built into the computer or did someone recommend it to you? ---I am recording one shots, but setting the playback via RAM, I'm not sure where that is, but it's possible I have it set correctly already---Not sure how to do that myself because I've never had to. Thats just how acid is designed. Don't let the false info fool you. Correct me if I'm wrong: If one imports a wave file into acid its either beatmapped or left alone and just becomes a one-shot. If its a one-shot it will be streamed from the disk unlike a acidized file which will by default be using ram exclusively to get the job done. You can "force" a one-shot wave to be stored in ram by right clicking the track number>properties>>track type:change to loop. A dialog will come up that will state how much of your ram will be used to play the file...answer yes or no. Ed. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:2/26/2003 10:40:12 PM
Beat me by that much. Damn. Good info MD. My system is really getting tired as well. P3 600mhz 384 ram 3 7200rpm HD OS,audio video. XP Pro [standard pc] partitioned 3 times. One setup for fun.ie:internet,virus software,firewall,microsoft word,etc...The other two are just barebones install of the OS+all the updates for my system and AV software. This way I can have fun AND get work done on the same system. Try it. Echo Layla 20 bit soundcard. 6.05 beta drivers...Soon to be delta 1010. Contour shuttle pro driver 1.3.3 Microsoft elite keyboard Microsoft trackball explorer mouse Tweaked as can be. If you need someone to help you out with your computer stuff try going to: www.creativecow.net Go to the windows hardware forum and speak with earle foote. Best advice I could give you. Ed. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: groovewerx
Date:2/26/2003 11:59:16 PM
i agree, it really depends on your hardware because i don't use a "pro" version and i've been able to run up to 78 full-legnth (4+ minute) tracks in acid music 3. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: coolout
Date:2/27/2003 4:21:22 AM
ah, he finally posted his specs... the fact of the matter is the sync problems patrick is having are not due to acid. many users on this forum have shown great results in using acid to run many full length tracks without any issues. it's probably: a.) your soundcard, the ess is a very cheap consumer soundcard and is known for compatability issues. even if it did work the signal-to-noise ratio is horrible and your recording would sound like crap anyway. one of my old machines had one of these. b.) your SCSI setup is wrong. what version of scsi are you using? what's the throughput? is it terminated? SCSI brings the possiblities of slow disk speed to a whole new level. i once had issues with sync on a mac using a scsi-2 external interface and logic audio...5 years ago. it's obvious your computer is at least 3 three years old and you're probably using a slow scsi-1 or scsi-2 interface with a cheap consumer soundcard known for compatability issues. don't blame acid or SOFO, blame yourself. keep acid, buy a real soundcard and a cheap internal IDE drive. Maruuk you ought to be ashamed for defending this guy. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: Jimco
Date:2/28/2003 8:05:05 AM
The interesting thing is that Patrick2003 posted earlier about latency in Acid and claimed that he had a "...fast computer and a killer sound card." Seems as though he may have been exaggerating a bit! :) Jim |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: coolout
Date:2/28/2003 8:51:25 AM
"...fast computer and a killer sound card." i didn't think of that one. that makes it even more funny. newbies...go figure. |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: MyST
Date:2/28/2003 9:05:04 AM
THAT is why it is so important to list your system specs right off the bat! I think you could have gotten quicker/better help if you would have listed your specs at the start. When you mention "fast system and killer soundcard" people will figure along the lines of a P4 with Echo Layla. You're only hurting your own chances of getting your problem resolved by being vague. Always list your specs and what your doing when it crashes. M |
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Subject:RE: HOW DO I GET MY MONEY BACK IF ACID ISN'T AN UNLIMITED MULTITRACKING PRODUCTION TOOL
Reply by: DKeenum
Date:2/28/2003 9:36:57 AM
And don't take the word of a music store salesman. Do research. |