Subject:Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Posted by: oO_Darren_Oo

Date:2/18/2003 1:19:37 PM

I was working with some samples in Acid today and I've noticed quite a severe drop in top-end clarity and image when the file is processed with Acid.

Has anyone else noticed that Acid appears to really degrade the audio quality ?



Cheers

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: MyST

Date:2/18/2003 1:29:22 PM

What did you render your file as...wave, mp3, pca,...?
If it was mp3, what quality setting did you select?

M

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:2/18/2003 1:44:58 PM

Adding to what MyST said, could you clarify about "processing" your files in ACID?

For example, are you rendering a project, or are you just trying to bring in a sample? If it's the latter, it could be a case of ACIDizing the file.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: oO_Darren_Oo

Date:2/18/2003 2:00:17 PM

Hi - Thanks for the replies.

Basically I'm just bringing a loop in from soundforge and then playing it back in Acid and making an a/b comparisson between the two. I have switched off all processing circuits in acid .. it's just playing the file back.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: MyST

Date:2/18/2003 2:06:53 PM

There shouldn't be any difference between both apps. Maybe if you went through the steps you take to save the sample in SF...do you render as from SF to a particular format?
Do you select an audio file from a folder to play in SF, then select the same audio file from the same folder to play in Acid?
Did you select the same soundcard as playback device in both apps?

M

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: SonicJG

Date:2/18/2003 3:06:05 PM

And are the volumes the same? Make sure everything in ACID is at unity. Louder often sounds better.

Joel

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: oO_Darren_Oo

Date:2/18/2003 3:33:07 PM

Really - everything is totally a/b properly. I appreciate your comments but I think everything is fine on that front.

The wave is made with soundforge ... is saved as a 44khz 16bit stereo wav file. Soundforge is closed down .. acid is loaded up, then soundforge .. then the wav file is loaded into both programs and played back through the *same* channel of my hammerfall card. I'm monitoring through a mackie d8b mixer and on mackie HR824 nearfields.

I'm starting to think this is a problem with Acids sound engine. But don't take my word for it .. find a sound with very clear and transparent high end and then play back with soundforge and acid and compare them. I think you will be stunned.

I really hope I am mistaken here but I don't see what I could be doing wrong.

:(

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: oO_Darren_Oo

Date:2/18/2003 4:28:29 PM

I mean this is a really (really) big deal if my findings are accurate. I'm going to run some more tests tomorrow and I'll post the results .. I'll make it a bit more scientific than a couple of drumloops - I'll pinpoint where (spectrally) the problem is (if indeed there is a problem).

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: SonyJEV

Date:2/18/2003 4:34:15 PM

It would be helpful to know what version of ACID you are running.

The file is a loop, is the project tempo and key the same as the loop? If not, you have not "switched off all processing circuits in ACID". Try making your track a one-shot and see if it helps.

--j

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: oO_Darren_Oo

Date:2/18/2003 5:01:18 PM

Ok, I switched the track to a one-shot and rendered that and it's fine.

The loop I'm working with is at about 119.8 bpm (so acid says) - my project tempo is 120. I have set the granularity of the slices very low (so that it only sees the actualy beats .. nothing in-between). It's the file thats rendered out at the project tempo which suffers from loss of clarity.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: SonicJG

Date:2/18/2003 6:07:26 PM

There's two things to consider. Part of ACID's magic involves doing micro-crossfades, so if you're stretching a file, it's going to change the sound, at least slightly. Also, ACIDization is going to be important, so one stretch marker per note may not produce the best results. A well-ACIDized file will sound quite good within a fairly large tempo range. Was the file that you brought in home-spun, or from a loop library?

Also, which version of ACID did you say you were using?

Joel

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: oO_Darren_Oo

Date:2/18/2003 6:48:54 PM

I'm using v3 - Have been using it for a long time now with good results on most material. This loop is a home spun drum loop. Played and recorded here at the studio using a Neve channel strip and brought into the digital domain via an apogee converter. It's a very clear recording.

As I'm not a robot I only managed 119 bpm over four bars .. so I decided to take it into acid instead of try and re-play the whole part (I'd never get it right again)and rev it up to 120 - where it should be.

The only workaround I can think of for this problem is to take the original 119 loop.. slice it with recycle and then EQ all but the upper most freqs and then run those slices in parallel with the acid version of the loop .. this should replace the frequencies that have been affected in the acid loop.

I understand that Acid is (in some cases) creating a lot of wavelets and resequencing them to achieve it's funky stretch-osity but here the bpm is so close that I decided to pick a very coarse slice setting. If I make the slices more frequent I get a distinct warble to the sound as there is a lot of ride cym going on producing quite a fluid 'tssstssststssss' behin the kick and snares etc.
So really I just wanted Acid to shift everything slightly and not mess too much with the main body of the sounds. I can't seem to find a setting that gives a result without loss of clarity.

BTW - I downloaded the demo of Acid 4 and it seems to do exactly the same thing. But it totally rocks .. I wouldnt be without Acid in the studio so I did'nt want to diss the software at all. Just wanted to bring your attention to a very tangeable artifact.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: waynegee

Date:2/18/2003 9:22:48 PM

yeah, we're dancing about issues with versions and settings and whatnot but ACID DOES indeed, change the sound of your audio. It's been a problem since day one. In all fairness, though, ACID 4 is the best sounding of all...it's keeps getting better. I first noticed when I:

A) rendered some loops...they definitely lost some presence and imaging.
B) when I opened some loops in Acid to check timing/tempo with Beatmapper and then open the same loops in Vegas...there is a difference. All the high tinklies and depth was back.

The reality is that all software colors the sound to a degree (no matter what the guys from each respective company is gonna say...). The hope is that it doesn't change the sound for the worse! I've done finished mixes out of ACID and while they sound good, they don't have the clarity of mixes I've done in Sonar and Nuendo...or even Reason for that matter. But hey, for what it was designed to do, nuttin' touches ACID. So there.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: jtuffen

Date:2/19/2003 6:36:13 AM

I don't know about Acid 3, but in Acid 4 it is possible to pitch-shift loops rather than playing looping(or non-looping) segments.... Since the tempo of the drumloop and the song are close, is it possible to get 'better' results doing pitch-shift??

(I'm at work at the moment and don't have access to Acid - sorry if the terminology is wrong!)

john..

www.namke.com

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: spesimen

Date:2/20/2003 3:43:21 PM

definitely - if you just need to change the tempo a tiny fraction and it's a percussive element where pitch isn't critical, try just resampling it in soundforge to be the right length (4bars @120 = 8 sec) or try using the 'pitch shift' option in acid's time stretch..

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: konversion

Date:2/20/2003 5:23:35 PM

ive heard the same thing... my tracks will sound great while im working on them, but when i render them, burn to a cd, then play in my car to check the levels, it sounds dampened... seems like it was dubbed off of a tape.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 5:37:01 PM

... seems like it was dubbed off of a tape.

Could the possiblity be in part that you didn't take it anywhere to get mastered? Not to dis its just that it took me a while to get my stuff sounding right as well. I'm always going back and tweaking something or even just opening the project from the earliest save point and remixing it for fun just to experiment.

A great mastering plugin to help with your final mixes can be found here:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/directx.html

It's called ozone and IMHO its worth every cent. Comes with a great pdf mastering+dithering guide.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: konversion

Date:2/20/2003 5:43:00 PM

no, its not even that... i put together all my sequences and what not in fruity loops. in fruity, i make a basic template for my tracks and then i export all the individual elements and them compile in acid because i can tweak things easier in it. but before i put everything in acid, i rendered the track with fruity just to get a taste of what my subbass was going to sound like in my car, and the entire track sounded beautiful, but when i compiled in acid, rendered, then listened in my car, the presence and image wasnt quite there anymore. ive noticed this for a while, but lately its just been getting on my nerves since my production skills have been improving, and the only thing thats holding it back it the dampening. but ill definately check out that mastering plug in you linked.

thanks.
aaron

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 6:00:51 PM

I don't own fruity so I can't comment. Hope you like OZONE.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: konversion

Date:2/20/2003 6:05:14 PM

you'd be surprised... ive used fruity for about a year and a half, and i still learn new things. but i may also increase the overall gain in acid and see if that makes any difference. you got any other suggestions besides the ozone plugin, though?

Subject:RE: multitrack audio recording

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 6:33:57 PM

Find where in the mix [frequencys]you feel is sounding muddy in your mix down and apply a bit of eq/compression/etc to the master fader. See if this offsets what your hearing in the previous end result. In fruity are you applying any fx that your not aware of.

When you open a wave in either which sounds better[no fx applied and the track volume at unity=0]. Does this only happen with rendered files?

Try this...Open a small project. No more than 6 tracks for ease of execution. Mix this the same way in both. ie:same track volume/routing/fx [for fx make sure each tweak is saved as a preset so that using it in the other app is accurate]. Now render. Still here a difference? Make this example as basic as you feel. I'm just curious what cakewalk does differently.

Ed.

Subject:RE: multitrack audio recording

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 6:35:23 PM

Have you tried using fruity as a vsti in acid? Hows that coming along by the way?

Ed.

Subject:RE: multitrack audio recording

Reply by: konversion

Date:2/20/2003 6:37:52 PM

fruity? oh, i think fruity is awesome... i was skeptical about it before i started using it, and i think its the best sequencing/looping programs ive used.

Subject:RE: multitrack audio recording

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 9:47:25 PM

Sorry I mean that you should be able to go "insert soft synth" and see fruity loops in the list of vsti's...yes/no? Which version of fruity are you using. There were problems with this during the initial release but I'm wondering hows it running on 4.0b...Jacose how's it on your system? Anybody else have it running well together?
Try it tomorrow.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:2/21/2003 9:42:14 AM

There are a lots of variables in this discussion as it applies to full mixes: audio monitors, how idividual loops interact with each other, wheather you render your mixes or burn directly to CD, etc.

I've used acid for full mixes without any problems: clear mixes w/a good balance. It sounds in my truck the way I expect it to sound. But I've sent hours and hours learning how to mix. First you do your best mix while comparing it to a comercial release that you admire for it's mix. Then you start playing it in other enviroments: boom box, car, whatever. At first you will be surprised at how it doesn't translate well to other listening enviroments, but you will learn.

Subject:RE: multitrack audio recording

Reply by: Spy

Date:2/21/2003 9:48:50 AM

I've recently acquired a copy of FL 3.56 which can be used stand alone or as a VSTi in Acid. I've used it both ways and it is very good, however whenever I save a project in Acid with FL inserted it crashes. This may be due to the demo progs in FL, as yet I haven't tried (haven't had the time with work and all) to open it up using only non demo instruments but I'll have a go this weekend and let y'all know how it goes.



One Love, Spy!

Subject:RE: Has anyone noticed a problem with the clarity of acid?

Reply by: jocks

Date:2/22/2003 8:56:59 AM

Hi Darren,
I posted a similar comment about Acid 3.0 when it came out. One can hear it on very clean dynamic acoustic wave files. however, if you're into dirty vinyl looping and do your mix with heavy compressing, you won't hear the coloring of sound at all. I suspect the coloring has to do with Acid's wonderfull ability to mix sample rates and bit resolution.
I'm looking forward to your spectrum analyse.
/jocks