Subject:how rewire should be implemented in 5.0

Posted by: ozzborn

Date:2/11/2003 2:44:16 AM

explanation :

rewired programs operate in master or slave or both.

example 1.... slave
in this scenario acid acts as an extension to the host program.
cubase/nuendo,protools 6.0,logic,and sonar would be the master,the outputs of acid are than steamed into the host program.both programs are in pefect sync

if used with cubase/nuendo,logic,and sonar acid would probaly loose directx effects but you would have your DX effects on the hosts mixer.

if used with protools(LE or TDM) acid might still have directx plugins because protools uses its own (RTAS) format.

this is probably the easiest way,and it increases the acid user base.
cubase/nuendo,protools,logic and sonar users who would never have used acid (standalone) can now intergrate your product into there the main application without having to choose between them.

look at how abelton live rewires into other apps. each channels are in pairs (this is good,very very good.)reason only gives the main outs as stero and all other channels are in mono (this sucks because to put effects on individual tracks with stero outputs you have to do it on 2 channels with the same effect on each diffrent channel, again this sucks big time)

example 2.... master

here acid is the master and lets say reason is the slave.

first of all their is rewire 1 and rewire 2 let me explain

rewire 1 is where the audio outputs of reason is steamed into acid mixer and both programs are in perfect sync.
this sceanario is the simplest because the programs are in PERFECT SYNC WITHOUT DRIFTING(this is a beautiful thing) you do loops in acid and midi in reason.

rewire 2 does this one better by allowing midi communication between both apps.acid can see the midi channels of reason. this way your using reasons devices but the actual sequencing and arrangeing is done in acid.

this is the best method but the hardest and could possibly complicate matters even worse.
acid does not handle monitoring midi well enough (in my opinion)for this method.
The way midi is monitored in cubase/nuendo,sonar,protools,reason,digital orchestra pro,and logic is by selecting a track,assigning the out(ext.output,vsti,dxi etc.)highlight the track(just click on it)and play your external keybaord and the midi signal is mapped to the selected track thats chosen.
unless you change the way you monitor midi in 5.0 this would just create more problems(or continue to be a tedious process).however if you did change the monitoring this would be ideal.

my sggestion is rewire (master) and rewire 1(slave). i would love to have the midi integration of rewire 2 but this could create to many problems.
REWIRE 1 gets the JOB DONE without added stability and compatability headaches.

abelton live and logic 5.0 use rewire 1 for master
cubase/nuendo and protools 6.0 use rewire 2 for master
abelton live,reason,rebirth,project 5,storm use rewire slave

recap :

acid as rewire slave will bring more customers. potential buyers could use your product in there exsisting apps without having to choose between them.

acid as a master would be great. it brings acid closer to the loopbased DAW. you could use reason in acid and gain the benefits of both.alot of users just want to mae music and would like to avoid using cubase/nuendo,logic and sonar,and love the simplict power of programs like acid and reason.

i have been an acid user since 2.0. the way i make music daily is by syncing acid to reason.(acid - vmr - reason midi clock) i know A4 has vsti's but acid becomes very very unstable with vstis and/or extenal midi.i just cant trust it with this maybe 5.0 will change my mind or maybe 4.0c might but until you guys change the way you monitor midi,and make acid stable with vstis, i will continue to record external synths as audio,and use vstis on an 2nd computer with v-stack or chainer.

i hope ive been helpful

Subject:RE: how rewire should be implemented in 5.0

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:2/14/2003 6:40:31 PM

please respond, sofo needs direction

Subject:RE: how rewire should be implemented in 5.0

Reply by: stusy

Date:2/14/2003 7:45:35 PM

Well you know what..? I was kinda hopin for a valentines day update with at least one app...book em danno...

Subject:reFuse Alternative

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:2/15/2003 1:49:06 PM

Actually, there's another way to go if SOFO can't get it's act together on ReWire.

reFuse Software just came out with a separate app ($29) that links ReWired Reason to non-ReWired Pro Tools. It's only for Mac but they are considering a Win version.

Cut to chase: A $29 app which links non-ReWired AP 3.0g to ReWired Sonar (or Reason, or Cubase or?) Basically a version of what they've just done for Digi. So you'd get VST/Midi/Audio plus a basic, stable, simple Acid Pro 3.0g that we all know and love.

It's all good, baby!

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:2/17/2003 12:37:41 AM

hope they make it for p.c. soon

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: coolout

Date:2/17/2003 4:02:19 AM

with rewire going into protools later this year, refuse is dead in the water.

doesn't matter for acid users anyway. all refuse shows is that if someone cares enough they can add needed functionality to an audio app independent of the original developer.

where are all the programmers who love acid? give us a rewire client in a vsti.

if i had the knowledge, time, or eneregy i'd do it myself. all the development kits are free and available.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:2/17/2003 4:26:10 PM

Imagine a not-unlikely scenario in which SOFO goes belly up in a few weeks like a dead carp. Not unlikely because the owner brother (don't ask me to spell his name!) borrowed a million bucks to save SOFO from immediate disolution from his richer brother at userous rates and put up the entire company as collateral. The note's due in a few weeks. SOFO pays off the huge interest, the brothers then split it, and split for the Coast allowing the ship to go down without the captain. Nice.

At any rate, the new owners, if any, may sit on the product for many months. So imagine a third-party which comes along and implements a $29 ReWire-style app that works with 3.0g. The core technology needn't be touched. Works with existing product.

This may be the only lifeboat Acid users have to get hooked up.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:2/17/2003 6:22:46 PM

i hope someone contacted the refuse guy to see if he can hook us up.
if not, how do we get in contact with him/her/them.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: tascolas

Date:2/17/2003 6:22:56 PM

i am sorry guys - but u r really boring me - whats next plz? acid as a vst instrument ? hahahha ... I dont mean to offend anybody and rewire will be nicely welcomed but sofo right now need to make the apps new features stable and add the desired from a lot of peeps vst fx which kinda seems easy as the next step - i dont want to use Sonar - SX - or Logic coz the way they interact with the user is exactly the same as 10 yrs ago . No improvement whatsoever . Acid is the way to go .And really the midi might not be perfect but having the ability to use the midi tracks from vstis as u use the audio tracks in the arrange window and real fast rendering to loop or beatmapped tracks is just SOOOOOO handy. I believe SOFO's choice to make it more of a workstation app is greatly justified by all of the pros (including me )who are already using Acid 4 to make hit records. U all take care

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/17/2003 6:36:09 PM

Wasn't the point in this thread "how rewire should be implemented in 5.0"???
Stay focussed or else you'll have to deal with acid 5 not living up to your expectations. Don't forget about the Vsti implementation+anything else.

Oh BTW...http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030214/140288_1.html

I was right.

Ed.

Wayne where are ya buddy?

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: coolout

Date:2/18/2003 2:23:48 AM

Ed, I know we got way off topic but the answer to the question is simple.

how rewire should be implemented in 5.0?

easy...as a rewire synth and host to the main and bus outputs.

that's pretty much it. it's not complex at all.

as far as us boring some people, tascolas, if you understood the concept of rewire, you would realize it makes the development of any other features a non-issue.

you want better vsti support, asio latency, or vst effects?

how about being able to pipe the main and bus outputs of acid into the mixer of an app with 3 or 4 YEARS more development in vst/vsti/asio.

instead of devoting more time into tweaking and adding more features, just sync it with an app that ALREADY does it right.

you won't hear ableton live user complain about the lack of vsti or reason users bitch about the lack vst effects. why?

because they have rewire.

it allowed the developer to concentrate on refining the app instead of just adding new features trying the catch up with the last 4 years of audio software.

I don't need vst effects in acid, my wrapper and chainer work fine.

I NEED REWIRE.

every time I start a project in reason or orion and want to add some loops arranged in acid or vice-versa...I NEED REWIRE.

every time a vsti crashes in acid or i have to switch between asio and sound mapper just to get a project done...I NEED REWIRE.

every time I want to use synths, vocoder, or effects in logic but I want to arrange in acid...I NEED REWIRE.

it's really simple.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/18/2003 4:07:31 PM

Good job coolout and everybody else being productive. Exactly my point. For me though I wish that we could do the same with hooking up acid to VEGAS 4-5? I personally don't want to install ANY steinberg product ever again on my system[I don't like logics interface but admire the "depth" of what can be achieved with it]. This was my suggestion for acid 4.0 in the beginning. I really hope that in acid 5 I'll be able to get Vegas>>rewired>>to acid then I'll be a happy camper.

Question...How limited is the routing options for rewire? ie: can I hook up a rewire capable app to more than ONE OTHER rewire capable app. Sonar to reason. Or Sonar to reason to Project 5 to Live 2.0 to etc... What CAN/CAN'T rewire do as of version 2.0. This will open up a whole new level of discussion on ways that rewire can be implemented in acid 5. Anyone?

Ed.

BTW...I own Sonar 2.2 and Reason 2.0 only so I haven't been able to try this out myself.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:2/19/2003 2:09:03 AM

You were right if you predicted a 3.3 million dollar loss for the quarter, a re-focus away from desktop media to "new markets" which emphasize "corporate, educational and government" business. You were right if you predicted an emphasis on dumping the desktop business ASAP to "major players who've expressed an interest in our software and intellectual properties". Way to go.

The message in the conference call is clear--they're touting Vegas to the skies to draw acquisition flies to the honey. They reiterated the tedious costs associated with "marketing, R&D, and support costs for the digital media software in such a brutally competitive market". This is a whiner theme we see quarter after losing quarter. The President wants to get out of the consumer software business so bad he's ready to scream, it's losing consistently and dragging down the company.

They mentioned the loops are a good profit center, but the Acid software itself is a virtual boat anchor financially. Vegas itself is showing a good sales spark, but it's in context of a hopeless P&L context with the staggering overhead mentioned above. The Pres made it abundantly clear that he was extremely interested in offing the whole desktop mess to these "major players" who had expressed interest.

Corporate. Education. Government. And what they term their "professional products" which have a much higher profit margin than these measly consumer products like Acid. That's where the company is headed. Far, far away from Acid--and if the Pres has anything to say about it, the sooner the better. Yep, you were right all along. What a genius.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/19/2003 4:50:04 PM

Wow...Did the zantax get to your house late or something? Everyone please take a step back from the a$$ clown with some weird vendeta to depress everyone. Thats it...Just peddle back and hopefully he'll go back to scratching himself with his copy of 3.0g with rewire written in crayon on the cd.

We have a good moment and you easily turn it around to a notion that would make someone slit their wrists. Times are tough for everybody but you don't see everyone else who got aquired on cubase.net or logics forums crying "bloody murder" do you? Sad. Move on already.

Again...Whats your problem? Oh who gives a crap!!! Things are great today...things are not so great tomorrow...back to being great the next one...and so on...You've got to chill and stop looking like a fool in front of everyone. Ya I know its the internet and you feel 10 feet tall and all but for christ sake get help!

The be all end all of this is that say sh!t does hit the fan and we all have to buy another product in a few years,you would be the same depressing individual with NO positive input or original thought of your own. Just what you "copy+paste" from others posts to fit your "arguement"...Sad. Have you at all helped anyone on these forums with ideas other than "run for the hills"...Sad.

Go away TROLL. Thats what the forum communities elsewhere calls a loser like yourself.

Sorry for being of topic...I know...I know.

Ed.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:2/19/2003 9:41:58 PM

What's the matter SHT fer brains, afraid to hear the conference call and face the actual TRUTH about SOFO for once? Afraid your phony cheerleader pose will finally be exposed for the sad little attack dog hatemonger persona that it really is? I eat forum bullies like you for breakfast--go back to watching AP4 crash and burn and leave the financial realities to informed adults who need to know the whole truth, and nothing but.

Subject:RE: reFuse Alternative

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:2/20/2003 12:57:39 AM

Ken, you didn't actually think you weren't going to get flamed, did you? Your response to Eddie's post was a tad insulting. Sure, his reponse to yours was emotionally charged, but can you blame him?

I urge you to please direct your energy towards helping others on this forum. (I mean, that's what it's here for, right?)

I've listened to the conference call. Frankly, I don't know where the situation lies. At the beginning, Mr. B. says that there are interested buyers. At the same time, they sound encouraged at how well Vegas 4 is doing. In my opinion, if people are interested in Vegas 4, then they're going to get naturally interested in SoFo's other products such as Sound Forge and ACID Pro.

I've also noticed a few new users on here the last couple of months I haven't seen before on the ACID forum. To me, that's encouraging.

Iacobus

Subject:Take your problems to a shrink NOT here dude.

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 5:57:59 PM

OT:This thread is about advancing the acid product line. Not about how easily I could make you look stupid with a little "cut+paste" of my own. Obviously your here to cause trouble and nothing else...keep it up dumbass[troll]. Makes my work "that" much easier.

On Topic: Like I've said in the past I care about only rewiring acid to vegas creating my "uber" app[sorry ;)]. But I again do not know if this is done if I would still be able to open up reason as well. ie:acid>>>rewired to>>>vegas+reason.
How many app ports does rewire 2 have? Will it be possible to change grid markers in one app and have that carry over in another for editing purposes? ie: IF one did a tempo change in acid will vegas slave to those changes?

Ed.

Subject:RE: Take your problems to a shrink NOT here dude.

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:2/20/2003 6:50:00 PM

Heh heh, you're turning into a bitter old man before our eyes, Ed. Take the pension. Then you'll have all time you'll need to reboot 4.0 and rebuild your project everytime it crashes (at approximately 3 minute intervals).

The rest us are man and woman enough to face the simple facts--the President has just made it abundantly clear how excited he is that some large players are very interested in taking this whole consumer-level, non-corporate, non-educational, non-government nightmare off his hands. That is, among other apps, Acid.

So when we see the travesty that is 4.0, it's easy to understand how it came about. The Pres could care less about the product. In fact, he barely mentions it in his call. They have laid off a large amount of tech staff. The whole digital desktop component is on the block. It's over. SOFO wants to wash it's hands clean of this financial boat anchor ASAP. SOFO is going full speed ahead into regions that bore the heck out of an Acid user. They are abandoning the product. Sayonara. Finis.

The new buyers could take the franchise pretty much anywhere, or nowhere. But if you're waiting around for 5.0, don't hold your breath. SOFO would be insane to spend the costly man hours on code that will be torn apart and reworked by the New Guys anyway. If you're selling a car for $500 do you put $1500 into it just before the new owner comes to pick it up?

FOR SALE: ACID PRO 4.0c Has been crashed many times. Needs work. No ReWire. Can be restored to run as good as 3.0g. Good parts app. Best offer, or will trade for 2 tickets to Mexico plus a fast donkey for my brother and me as soon as we get our usurous 25% interest on the million $ loan. Habla espanol, will take pesos. Contact The Guy in Dumpster #9, Madison WI

Subject:RE: Take your problems to a shrink NOT here dude.

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:2/20/2003 9:55:59 PM

Then you'll have all time you'll need to reboot 4.0 and rebuild your project everytime it crashes (at approximately 3 minute intervals)---4.0A NEVER crashed on me...4.0B crashed even "less"....Even more proof of how much of a loser you are. Have you even tried 4.0b yet? Idiot. About the rest of what you wrote take it offline with me because I don't want to waste other peoples time with me insulting you.
You could reach me at: Maruukisatotalidiot@nyc.rr.com

Ed.

Subject:RE: Take your problems to a shrink NOT here dude.

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:2/20/2003 11:06:57 PM

Wait a minute here, Ken. Did you read my post?

As I've said, I've listened to the conference call. He did say there were interested parties for the desktop line, but he also said that they were encouraged by Vegas' sales performance thus far.

He also happened to mention about how Vegas (part of the media tools market Mr. B. mentions), combined with ACID and Sound Forge, "offers some of the most powerful media creation tools in the world, in a form that can be defined as a media creation suite." (His exact words.)

Encouraging, no?

It almost sounds like SoFo is aiming at a slightly different market. (This is all pure speculation on my part.) We all know the whole range of products, from ACID to Vegas to Sound Forge, are all production-based audio/video tools. They're not "live music" tools in the manner of, say, Ableton's Live. But they are used by those that make music. (Like me.)

(Loved that stab at Apple, BTW, especially about that whole stupid "apple.com/switch" campaign.)

I've had no problems with ACID Pro 4.0b. I've had slight problems with the initial release, but that was only because of a problem with my soundcard driver and not ACID itself. (Then again, I use Windows XP too, a much more robust OS than Windows 9x/Me will ever be.) I believe many users here on the forum would concur with me.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Take your problems to a shrink NOT here dude.

Reply by: coolout

Date:2/21/2003 3:27:56 AM

yeah, every couple of weeks Maruuk gets into a tussle with someone.

there's really no use in bickering. we all love acid which is the reason we're not on the ableton live forum.

the fact is that 4.0b is completely stable if you rarely use asio or vsti.

i have projects that use 50+ tracks full of automation and effects and 4.0b performs like a champ.

i went back to finish a project on my old machine that has acid pro 3.0 and i was surprised how much of the small tweaks in 4.0 i missed (fade types in particular).

i don't want 3.0g with rewire anymore...i want 5.0 with rewire.

Subject:all dumbshit a side,maruuk has a point

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:2/21/2003 8:43:08 AM

5.0 may not happen under sofo, by the way ,what is the name of the potential owners.