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Subject:Bummer, Wake up
Posted by: Dick_Withers
Date:1/24/2003 9:53:20 AM
"On December 30, Ernst & Young cited the company's working capital deficiency, and raised "substantial doubt" about the company's ability to continue as a going concern. The auditor said Sonic Foundry's convertible debt is a current obligation and the company does not have long-term credit availability." Hmm... Maybe you shouldn't have thumbed your noses at the mac community after all. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: MyST
Date:1/24/2003 10:19:01 AM
Hey Dick, How do you know SoFo would have seen a good return on investment needed to support that platform. Did you perform a feasability study? M |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: FT13
Date:1/24/2003 10:32:24 AM
its a number of things: 1.) VERY late VST support..yet still no VST effect support 2.) Price 3.) VERY late add-ons for Acid Pro should i go on? -Sin |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: MyST
Date:1/24/2003 11:20:35 AM
"should i go on?" Yes, you should! I can't believe you actually think VST has so much to do with Sonic Foundry's financial situation. Do you realize how much you're taking away from SoFo's accomplishments with that unresearched statement?? How do you know it has so much to do with VST? Did you perform a study? Did you personally call people who didn't own Acid to ask them what stopped them from buying it? Did they tell you it was VST? Or was it Rewire? I don't suppose it has anything to do with the economy. No, it's gotta be VST. Bombardier used to be a gold mine. They make planes for those who don't know. Now, their stock is MUCH lower than it used to be. I don't suppose it has anything to do with 9/11. Commercial airline companies were going broke because people weren't flying anymore, so they had to cut back on new plane purchases. But hey, I suppose that's just a coincidence. I bet it's really because they didn't have cupholders for the passengers. Get a grip, SoFo's problems aren't all directly related to their software. Price? SoFo offers software at every price point. Don't blame them if you want the extras but are only willing to pay for the basics. Late add-ons? Again, you're really taking away from SoFo as a whole if you think it was the lack of "add-ons" that put them in this situation. M |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: fresnog
Date:1/24/2003 11:26:45 AM
The content of this message was deleted by the owner. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: DKeenum
Date:1/24/2003 12:24:23 PM
Even if SF were to go away, they have done an incredable service to the music community. Just look at Cakewalk's journey into loop-land. We are not going back to the things were. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: MyST
Date:1/24/2003 1:16:35 PM
Doesn't Steinberg have VST, midi, and hardware control support? Don't they have a Mac version available? Weren't they recently bought out?? M |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: liquid
Date:1/24/2003 1:27:23 PM
just because their stock isn't sky high, doesn't mean the company is going to die. The are going to be delisted from nasdaq, and re-listed somewhere else. What's the big deal. This sort of thinn happens all the time. However, I must agree that I think that they arn't doing a very good job at keeping their products as up-to-date as possible....but, I still find acid more useful than most other software....but I could make a list of things that if they improved, I'd recomend acid to many others. Now I have to recomend it with certain disclaimers...:-( Don't forget people, acid isn't SF only product....life will go on! |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:1/24/2003 3:30:01 PM
I know. I seriously wish February would hurry up and come along just so all this speculation would die. I laugh in Apple's elitist face. Very heartily. They basically can kiss my defiant ass. (Yo-Yo Ma, I'm so disappointed in you.) Iacobus |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:1/24/2003 3:40:24 PM
It's certainly a very serious blow to the company receiving salvatory near-term capital. The nature of the transaction supposedly to be announced next month would have told us if Acid is toast or not. But events may well overtake this timetable. If the company's forced into BK, it's intellectual and physical plant properties are held in escrow pending an executor appointment and restructuring, or liquidation plan--whichever is deemed most beneficial to the creditors. Value tends to evaporate in this climate, and suitors to the audio suite are likely to suit themselves by skeedoodling like scared skeeters. Storm clouds are gathering, the barometer's bottoming--better board up your Windows. The next crashing sound you hear may not be the BSOD. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:1/24/2003 3:48:23 PM
BTW, the 93% of major film composers who use Performer on Mac OS to produce stunning scores on impossible deadlines are really hurt by that diss. They'd love to use Acid but--gosh, Nuendo/Mac does Acid loops and everything else thank you very much and, hm, doesn't do that annoying crash, or glitching thing. Oh, and if they want it to sync seamlessly with any other professional audio program and co-render through ONE mixer in real time it can do that too. How? Some little app or other SOFO deemed "not a priority at this time"...REWIRE. |
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Subject:Really dumb post...
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:1/24/2003 4:04:41 PM
This happened to emagic...life went on[new version 6 introduced at namm]. This happened to STEINBERG just a month ago...by a really bad video company...everyone over at the cubase forums are doing well and continue making music. This is now happening to "US" and ALL I read is this "DOOM AND GLOOM" crap again! Keep trying to bring people down. Oh I'm sorry...I forgot you all are doing us a public service...Thanks. Now go out and buy whatever audio/video app you need and be happy. Why do any of you think that the end result in feb will be any different than what we've seen time after time before? Really sad. Since the release of acid 4 in august I could have saved up my "cans and bottles" and bought the freakin crossgrade to EVERY app by now. Oh thats right...I already own all that I need. Can't wait till AMD's "Opteron" processors come out though. Stupid freakin drama in this forum. Its funny how the same exact people answer only either the "doom and gloom/Ihaveahardonforrewire posts" or the posts with someone who needs some honest/in depth help and not just an "opinion". Think about it. Ed. |
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Subject:RE: Really dumb post...
Reply by: liquid
Date:1/24/2003 5:06:02 PM
ed, you're the only drama I've seen in the forum...everyone else has been polite, relaxed and very helpful. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: dkistner
Date:1/25/2003 7:30:56 AM
Um, what's happening in February? And what did Yo-Yo Ma do? |
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Subject:RE: Really dumb post...
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:1/25/2003 4:11:02 PM
You said it, liquid! In case Ed hasn't noticed, a major analyst doubts SOFO can continue in any guise. This puts the offloading of the audio suite to an angel next month in serious question. Ongoing support for the Acid product is thus in question. These are facts in black & white. They contain no more emotion than how you'd like to receive them. But they are certainly facts of great interest to the Acid community, and helpful to any consumer facing an audio software purchase--they need to make the most informed possible decision about investing their hard-earned money. Emotion may be what us long-time users feel about this excellent product, but it has no place in financial analysis. If you do get it mixed up in that world, you really DO have a doom & gloom scenario--for your investment! |
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Subject:RE: STILL a "Really dumb post"...;)
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:1/25/2003 6:28:03 PM
LOL!!!! I still stand for what I said though I do apologize for coming off a bit aggressive. But liquid, dude you saying that "I'm the only drama I've seen in the forum" is way off by more than the sync between my vegas 4beta and acid using the VMR! ;) Count to ten and reread my post and tell me that what I said made less sense than say you liquid or myst or md or.....minus my emotional additives ofcourse... Anyone...Please explain why you feel that after all the other acquisitions that I stated in the above post "why" you feel that sofo's outcome would be any different/better/worse? Just curious. I've already posted in another thread that DSE:Douglas Spotted Eagle has stated that the owner [who he feels has great integrity] would never just sell these products to "hasbro" for a quick buck. Any new owners would be ones who would have the same vision to further the A/V line and not destroy it. THAT is a person "in the know" and not someone who again is making a "guesstimation". Ed. BTW... Rewire or not it sucks for EVERYONE out there. God I hope mackie comes out ok. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:1/25/2003 10:46:27 PM
That's approximately when SoFo is scheduled to announce what exactly will be going on with the company. We should have facts then, not speculation. Yo-Yo Ma did an "apple.com/switch" commercial. (So did people like De La Soul and Tony Hawk.) Should I use a Mac just because some celebrity allegedly uses one? (Uh, no.) Not my Goddamned fault they don't know RAM from ROM. Ken, you have to understand I was talking about Apple, not Mac users themselves. As I understand it, Mac users themselves aren't exactly happy about the ads either. Iacobus |
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Subject:RE: Really dumb post...
Reply by: DataCowboy
Date:1/26/2003 1:20:38 AM
Yes, and many major analysts touted internet stocks for over a year after beginning of the dot-com implosion. While I can see why an analyst might see that, for any possible outcome you can always find as least one analyst who believes in it. Ask Henry "Oops" Blodgett. Audio software companies have a long history of poor financial condition becuase they suffer from extensive compeition for what is essentially a niche market. Making audio applications is cool and fun, and because of that there is a high supply of programmers who want to do it. As audio software is not a huge market, this allows for the creation of many small companies, each with their own "hot new" product. As long as they have a hot new product, revenue increases and the company grows. Once that product grows older or the economy goes soft, revenue decreases, and the company struggles. I can't think of single significant audio software (or hardware, for that matter) corporation that has had smooth financial sailing throughout its lifetime. There's just too much supply of audio apps compared to the demand. SOFO appears to have tried to beat this trend by using revenue to diversify into other related areas (such as audio/video services) and stablize its revenue stream only to have the gamble not pan out before the cash ran out. This is not an uncommon occurance in niche software markets. In natural science terms, it'd be a form of expending too much energy growing and not enough surviving. Hexadecimal |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: DataCowboy
Date:1/26/2003 1:25:06 AM
Yea, if they had done Mac software they could be assimilated by Steve "Think Different Just Like Me" Jobs. Then they could be forced to drop all Windows products and become a loss leader for The Collective. Hexadecimal |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:1/26/2003 2:08:55 PM
If you read SOFO quarterlies carefully, you find a disaparate emphasis upon how difficult it is for this company to develop, support, market and run effective skunkworks R&D all at the same time in a highly competitive field. You get the impression they simply didn't have the massive cash on hand to maintain the same withering pace as the competition. Often times that's the difference, insufficient capitalization has sunk many fine ventures with superb products. Adding Mac is for Biggies only, and even at that, a questionable business move. Is Nuendo/Mac, for instance, doing better than breaking even given the boutique numbers on the Mac OS? No wonder they have to charge $800 for it! MOTU has carved out a nice, safe niche for themselves, but there's not much room left in that niche for newcomers. And notice their prices are steep as well. |
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Subject:That was very clear, hexadecimal
Reply by: dkistner
Date:1/27/2003 5:31:31 AM
I never thought of the whole "niche market" thing before. That makes so much sense. Actually, audio is a niche within a niche...because although we think we can't live without our computers and probably spend far more time on them than we do on anything else, we--or at least I--sometimes forget that not everybody has one, knows how to use one, or is so obsessed with it. And certainly far fewer computer users are setting up DAWs, for all the obvious reasons. So, with the exception of the cash flow thing, perhaps it was not such a stupid decision on SoFo's part to diversify after all. To stay alive, we all must take risks; problem is, risk is just that: a chance you take with no guarantees it'll work out. But sometimes you wind up being like the chicken in the chicken house with a little fleck of something on its back...all the other chickens go into this frenzy of pecking you to death. Why do they do that? Diane |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: coolout
Date:1/27/2003 5:42:24 AM
as both a mac and windows user i strongly disagree. porting nuendo over to the mac is totally different than porting acid pro. nuendo is a very redundant program in comparision to protools or logic. with the features and GUI you can tell it's mainly for cubase users who want protools. it's steinberg's attempt at having them not outgrow cubase. on the other hand there's nothing and i mean NOTHING like acid on the mac platform. it created a demand that other companies have had great success in trying to fill. if you look at the main customers who purchased ableton live or phatmatik pro...there all mac users. just go to their web site forums. they all suffered from "acid envy" and someone saw the opportunity to fill the gap. i own 4 macs but after playing around with acid on my crap celeron i was so impressed i moved to a P4 and bought acid pro 4.0. i only use my macs as synth and effects racks now. speaking ableton live, i just tried the demo for ableton live 2.0 and it still sucks. it has the worst GUI ever. it's the inverse of every other audio app. everything that's normally to the right is flipped the left and vice-versa. they blatantly tried to copy acid's functionality and GUI and tried to hide it by reversing everything and making it look like a cartoon. just thinking about using it makes me dizzy... the basic previewing and arrangement of audio in simply not as intuitive as acid pro which makes it a pain in the ass. the only reason someone would buy it would be if they has a mac, in other words...no other choice. |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: billybk
Date:1/27/2003 6:10:49 AM
Supposedly, SOFO may be forced to sell off their profitable audio/video software business in order to stay fiscally solvent as a digital media company. Unfortunately for SOFO, from what I've read, some bad business decisions, the economic downturn, arguably in-effective strategic marketing, along with some suspect over-priced aquisitons in the past, have saddled the company with a large debt burden. If indeed, the A/V software side is sold off, I am confident that the aquiring party would want to continue with R&D, marketing and support in order to maintain a viable and profitable entity, in order to justify it's own investment. I am not worried at all, the corporate owners may change, but the core popular apps ( Vegas 4, ACID Pro 4, Sound Forge 6 and CD Architect 5) will remain. In fact, personally, I will be upgrading to Vegas 4, as soon as it is available. Professionally, I work for a large audio-visual services company, I have been tasked to create a detailed proposal for setting up a portable digital video editing suite with a budget of $9,000 for the hardware and software. I will be recommending SOFO software to be the cornerstone of any video editing suite: DV Software: Vegas 4.0 + DVD Architect 1.0 Sound Forge 6.0 ACID Pro 4.0 Adobe Photoshop 7.0 Pixelan SpiceMaster 2.0 I have confidence in the future of SOFO's core software and it's developers, whether they remain with SOFO, is of course, another matter, Billy Buck |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:1/27/2003 4:25:29 PM
cool--Yeah, I think you're right about all that, except I know a nationally-known recording artist who uses Nuendo with Reason via Rewire-2 and is ecstatic over it, and makes killer tracks as well. Both are highly professional, well de-bugged apps that work in beautiful harmony with each other. billy--here's hopin'! |
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Subject:RE: Bummer, Wake up
Reply by: tascolas
Date:1/27/2003 7:50:46 PM
Well ... I d like to ask Maruuk and all the other enthusiasts of Nuendo and the rest apps if they know what makes a killer track -coz i had a no 3 remix hit single in Greece just last summer with only tools Acid 1 (!!!) , Korg MS 2000 and a couple of sample cds.Now if u guys feel that Rewire is all u live for and that midi and vsti was a wrong move i have to strongly disagree.I ve been using computers since 1987 and moved to all major platforms from Atari to Pc to Mac to decide in 1995 that i was really faster making music with just hardware solutions ... Until one day i downloaded on my office's pc a program called Acid . This app has caused a revolution in the way dance and not only musicians/composers/producers make their music. Since then i ve grown to know the app and its incarnations inside out . Now do u believe that any power user doesnt want his app to have midi and vsti ? Of course we need it . Who cares about cubase - mac - logic and the rest really ? I know and worked with Cubase since it was Pro24 . I know and worked with Logic since it was Notator . Really these apps look like dinosaurs to me - their interface and way of user approach is really mediocre if not bad . Pro tools ? Looks like its ported from 1993 hehehe ... Only good thing about it is TDM plugs. So to sum it all Acid is revolution and if they get the vst thing right no need for other apps really . Some of u guys are shouting about why go into a field where some1 else rules ? Hehehe . Did Cubase was vst from the beginning ? I dont think so ... In fact i ve seen over the years all apps and developers "borrow" from each other in terms of specs and features. And yes I wouldnt like Rewire to work Acid with Cubase for the only reason that cubase and the rest just s*ck .I d love to use Rewire to work Acid with Reason - oh yes .But still 1st things 1st vstis and proper midi have to be sorted .To me it looks only logical . And yes i use other apps : SoundForge and Vegas. And to finish this eerrrmmm ... Do u know Midi Yoke ? hehehe .Worx like a snap in XP and its free . And also 1 last thing . To run Rewire and have lets say Acid 4 and Cubase SX hooked together is suggesting a very powerful machine . Most users would go the 2 different pcs way like i did (although my other pc is just running synths). And then its like if u have 2 machines whats the need for rewire ? hehehe. Did any1 of u guys has heard of MidiOverLan or even plain midi sync? U all guys take care. I hope i havent offended anyone and i apologise for the long thread. |