Subject:I Have...

Posted by: stusy

Date:1/8/2003 9:14:09 PM

sf6, acid4, CDA5 and VV3 incl all the recent updates...question is: (and I must be a dumb cluck cuz it's not sinkin in) do I need the virtual midi router..? I currently have sonar131 off my machine..but can anyone think of why I would need this utility..? I've read the FAQs on it, but it doesn't seem to be something I would need..?

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:1/8/2003 9:20:53 PM

The only need for the VMR is to sync one app (like SONAR) to a SoFo app like ACID 4.0 via MIDI. If you hardly touch MIDI, there's really no need for it...

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: L25

Date:1/8/2003 11:02:55 PM

I tried VMR to sync up ACID and Vegas thinking it might help scoring music to video, but even though I was thrilled that I actually got it to work (thanks to SAMs ACID in 24 hours), it really did not help my work flow, I ended up prefering to either render a VV avi and drop it into ACID or render an ACID wav and drop it in Vegas. There is a bit of a delay when you hit play, and then one app catches up with the other.

L

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/9/2003 5:13:17 AM

A fortuitous posting, as I was coming here this morning to post just such a question.

Someone knowledgeable suggested to me I get a virtual midi router to do the following; and the way he talked, it sounds like it will work:

Route the midi output of Harmony Assistant (my scoring program) into something functioning solely as a "dummy player" that is VSTi-compatible (Acid only if it truly lets HA do the driving, n-Track, Cubase, something like that). The sole purpose is to have the dummy play the Harmony Assistant score as I am working on it so I can HEAR how the effects (note-shaping, dynamics, etc.) I'm applying in HA (not VSTi-compatible) will sound on the VSTis I actually intend to use for the final. Then, when I've got it all coded in HA, I can export the file to midi, then pull it into the other program (now not being a dummy) to actually render it out using the VSTi.

I've been doing a maddening, counterproductive ton of work trying to get my compositions into some kind of "human" shape. Over the last year, I've spent more time trying to learn all these oddball little "styling/grooving" programs and how to render/sync audio back and forth between things to get it to the dry-wave mixing stage, that I haven't been able to compose or finish very much at all! If this dummy player thing would work, I could do everything in Harmony Assistant (powerful, and I already know it well) that I need to do to take me right up to rendering those dry waves. Then I could spend more time doing what I love to do, which is composing.

Anyone gotten a setup like this to work with SoFo's virtual midi router? And, again, which is the most appropriate for an XP machine--the Win2K or the WinNT? AND, would installing it screw up the IRQs thing for my Mia soundcard in any way?

Diane

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: coolout

Date:1/9/2003 5:40:46 AM

well i hate to beat a dead horse but if acid pro had REWIRE all of this would be a non-issue. i'm tired of streaming wav files back and forth.

why is it so hard to let acid do what it does best (audio arrangement and manipulation) and use a proven sequencing platform for midi and vsti?

did SOFO ever make a definitive statement on REWIRE? peter...anyone?

it seems like it was a marketing decision more than anything else with less concern for users needs.

i'm sure it took more resources to include vsti, asio, and midi/opt than just getting rewire support.

cubase, logic, sonar, reason, orion, and ableton live all have rewire and it works.

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/9/2003 6:30:35 AM

Coolout, I WOULD use Acid just for audio if it weren't the only VSTi-compatible program I've got (other than demos and a crack I just don't want to use because I'm honest and know that cracks can drive companies under and halt development). And I have not bought anything else because, frankly, from what I've seen and read, even the "biggies" don't handle things as well as they should.

The point is, I want to use a scoring program for composition--full composition, including articulations and "humanizing," not just flat sequencing of midi notes--and have some way of playing that composition in real time using the instruments I intend to use (most of which are VSTis that my scoring program is not set up to play) so I can hear how it's shaping up; THEN reliably output those lines to dry mono waves for pulling into a mixer. Right now, I'm having to use "draft" instruments as I work in my composition, but when I export to another program and change those draft instruments to the final (VSTi) instruments, everything changes and the subtle shapings I worked so hard on fall apart.

I want to be able to hear in my scoring program exactly what I'm going to wind up with when I get it all output to waves. And THEN I can pull those waves into Acid or n-Track or whatever. I'm very frustrated trying to find a solution to this problem. Is there a sophisticated scoring program out there that's VSTi-compatible? (Don't say Cubase, because it's not nearly at the level of Harmony Assistant in terms of its scoring capabilities.) Would using a VSTi-compatible program as a "dummy player," as I mentioned above, work? Is there something else I can do that would work that I don't know about?

I just cannot believe musicians who compose music and "record" it completely out of the box (no "real" keyboards, guitars, etc., playing the lines) persist in going through the grief I go through to get one little composition done. For every hour I spend composing, I spend about 20 doing all the back-and-forth shenanigans...and ultimately have far less control over my "instrument" (the computer) than I think I should, given all the head-banging I go through.

There's gotta be a way. I don't want to hear "Well, if they'd add so-and-so to Sonar...if they'd add so-and-so to Acid...if they'd add so-and-so to Cubase...if they'd add so-and-so to so-and-so." I KNOW there's gotta be a way to do it more efficiently with what's already available. Musicians are doing it...HOW? Maybe not perfectly, and maybe not without frustration, but they've got to know something I don't. I'm losing my mind. Help!

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: braulio

Date:1/9/2003 7:18:01 AM

Diane,
I don't regard midi sequencing as flat. It is more 3-dimensional than most people think. If you are using a scoring program for sequencing, you are automatically creating something flat. You insert a quarter note, you get exactly a quarter note. Humans don't play like that. If you don't play music and don't have a midi keyboard, you are definitely going to spend a lot more time to make it sound human. It's much easier to use something along the lines of piano roll editing, where you can put in a note articulated exactly how you want it. You insert a note, drag it to the length you want, draw the velocity, and move it if needed. Cakewalk's piano roll editing is the best I've found for midi sequencing. It does allow printing scores, but lacks VSTi support. If you must have VSTi, then I suggest a loopback midi driver. I use Hubi's loopback in Win98, but I understand it has problems in XP. If I needed to hear music through a VST as I was composing, I'd output midi to the loopback driver, then use something like Cubase with midi input from that loopback driver. Unfortunately, most people are in the same boat with their software. It seems that all of the best features of producing music do not exist in only one piece of software.
How your music sounds is much more important than how it looks on paper. If you absolutely need to be able to have something which is printable as a score, finish your midi sequence first, quantize it and import it to your scoring program.
I'm a limited musician myself, so I can understand the frustration of how long it takes to create something that sounds like i really played it.

I hope you find comfort in knowing that you are not alone!
Braulio

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/9/2003 8:30:38 AM

Braulio, I do take comfort in that! Some... :)

My scoring program is capable of very sophisticated note-level and score-level shaping. Velocity curves export well to midi, as do durational changes and delays; and some (but not all...like a Floyd strike) of the note-level effects do, too. It's just hearing what I'm doing with the instruments I want to use that's the problem. And, yes, I do want to have a score.

I find piano roll editing really frustrating because that's just not the way I learned to write music. Give me a traditional score anytime. I can't read that darned piano roll, no matter how hard I try! It's just too different.

So, if I have, say, SoFo's virtual midi router installed, I select #1 as the output from my scoring program and the same #1 as the input into Acid? Forgive me if I'm very thick on this, but I've had a heck of a time getting the "wiring" right.

Diane

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: braulio

Date:1/9/2003 8:44:17 AM

I have never used sofo's midi router, but that sounds as if it would be the correct wiring. Does that come with Acid, or is it an add-on? I may have overlooked it.

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/9/2003 8:51:49 AM

Registered users of SoFo's products can download the VMR from the Download/Utilities page. You'll need your serial number. What I'm not clear on with this router is if it works generically or only with SoFo products.

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: L25

Date:1/9/2003 9:01:22 AM

I tried to get the "wiring" right for a long time, calls to SOFO, posts to Forums, it was not until I got Sams ACID in 24 hours, that I got it to work, they explained it step by step, very simple. I could email you the steps, but it would take me a while to pull the book out etc emailme if you want it

L

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: stusy

Date:1/9/2003 3:26:33 PM

Sam's Acid, what it that..? a book like Sonar Power..? is that on the SF site..? is that worth the buy..? I have acid pro 3.0 manual and the 4.0 PDF, etc...??

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/9/2003 4:21:26 PM

Jeff, I can't find your address here; just your postings. If you'll email me at dkistner@treeheart.org with the steps, I'll put it up on my site somewhere and post a download link for others to get it, too, if that's all right with you. Thanks much.

Diane

Subject:VMR instructions

Reply by: L25

Date:1/9/2003 8:04:48 PM

That's weird, my account shows my email address as lostinthailand@myrealbox.com, but it does not show up when you click on my neame L25?

As I mentioned, I used SAMS Teach Yourself ACID 3.0 in 24 Hours to learn the SOFO VMR. The book includes a tutorial CD, the VMR section is about 8 pages. IMO a good book, alot of it rewords the SOFO manual via tutorials, but some sections, (like VMR) really spell it out.

Using VMR to sync ACID and Vegas.

In this case, Vegas is the Master – it generates timecode, ACID is the slave – it receives timecode.

Open Vegas

Go to options>prefs and click on the sync tab.

Generate MIDI Timecode settings:
Output Device: choose Sonic Foundry MIDI Router, frame rate SMPTE Non-drop30fps

Click apply, OK

Go back to options, then timecode, choose generate MIDI timecode. Vegas is now set generate MIDI t/c.

Now open ACID
Go to options>prefs, then click the sync tab

In the trigger from MIDI timecode settings section choose Sonic Foundry MIDI Router from the Input Device drop-down list. Choose SMPTE non-drop 30fps from the frame rate drop down list, click apply, OK.

Choose options, timecode, and choose trigger From MIDI timecode, ACID is now the slave set to chase MIDI t/c from Vegas.

Click play on the on Vegas and Vegas and ACID should be sync’d up, since there is some chasing involved, there may be a delay in ACID catching up with Vegas. You should be able to put the curser anywhere on the timeline, hit play and they will start up from the curser.

This is of course just one example, and there are other things to consider like who is the master or slave and why, specifying offset, using MIDI clock.

Subject:RE: VMR instructions

Reply by: stusy

Date:1/9/2003 8:44:06 PM

Where did you find out about this book..? and are there others like it..? I find the manuals (if the app comes with one) from sonic are very user-friendly, esp with the helps and tutorials that come with..

Subject:RE: VMR instructions

Reply by: L25

Date:1/9/2003 9:11:58 PM

Not sure where I found out about it, probably this forum last summer. Amazon.com has it, if you get a used one make sure the CD is there, There is also ACID Power, but these are all for 3.0, don't know if there are any 4.0 books out.

l25

Subject:RE: VMR instructions

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/10/2003 10:14:49 AM

Didn't SoFo include this book in their catalog at one point?

Subject:RE: VMR instructions

Reply by: ATP

Date:1/10/2003 10:17:26 AM

hmm i wonder if L25's description also works for Cubase and ACID, where Cubase is the master and ACID the slave. interesting.... :)

Subject:RE: VMR instructions

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/10/2003 11:29:40 AM

Nope! I just got a list of your postings. Maybe I didn't know where to look.

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: coolout

Date:1/10/2003 6:55:12 PM

diane i think you miss my point.

if you need quality scoring and want to use vsti get Logic Audio, hands down.

if acid pro had REWIRE then your loops would seemlessly be intergrated with your score.

the transports would be synced and acid's output would appear as an additional channel on logic's mixer. no more guessing, rendering, and bouncing wavs back and forth.

but sonic foundry elected not to give us that functionality. i assume it was to position acid as a centerpiece for composition and not an auxillary application.

so instead they crammed 4.0 with features that other applications have been refining for years...asio, midi, vsti, surround, etc.

the outcome is as it sounds: acid is years behind in implementation of these technologies.

with other programs i get less asio latency, better vsti support, better midi editing and more surround tools. they know this to be true, but it's about positioning.

if ableton live's GUI didn't make me sick (it's like a cartoon and everything's opposite of every other sequencer) or if sonar had the beatmapper or the chopper i would have jumped ship just to have rewire.

there's really nothing you can do.

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/10/2003 7:52:37 PM

Coolout, I thought Apple had acquired Emagic's Logic Audio and that no further PC-side development is planned. That's not a path I would take, knowing the PC version of Logic is going nowhere; and seeing as how I don't have a Mac and don't plan to invest in one because I've already got so much invested in PC hardware/software, I'd need to look at something else. But I really like my scoring program now and don't really care to switch unless I have to. Is Logic where it's arrested on the PC side really so great--especially in the scoring department--that it would be worth going through the learning curve to switch?

Rewire sounds good, so I can see why you've been pushing it so hard here. I was wondering what it costs...but as far as I've been able to tell, it's a development thing that software developers agree to add to their products to get them to talk to each other...but that still wouldn't solve the problem (as you've pointed out repeatedly) of non-Rewire-compatible products talking to Rewire-compatible ones. I know my scoring program is not Rewire-compatible, and a good handful of other composition tools I use are not (and will never be) either.

I wonder if the Rewire equivalent of a VMR or VST wrapper could be written by some enterprising programmer/entrepreneur that could be dropped into non-Rewire-compatible programs. Probably not....

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: coolout

Date:1/11/2003 5:15:02 AM

you right, REWIRE is just a communication protocol for using different applications together. it's just a feature that doesn't cost extra, the application has it or it doesn't.

i didn't understand why all these people were complaining about the lack of REWIRE until i got reason. it really works well...seemless intergration.

i also realized it would have made all the complaints about acid pro 4.0 moot.

you know: poor asio latency, vsti support, the midi editor, etc.

if you need to use vsti and scoring it maybe worth the effort to switch to logic.

i think emagic changed their position on logic for windows somewhat because the windows updates keep coming. it's up to version 5.5 when i think it was supposed to end at 5.2.

even if development stopped tomorrow logic is still years ahead of acid as a midi/scoring/mixing platform, but acid pro's audio engine and GUI just does audio arrangement and loops better and easier. that's why i love it.

not to mention when it finally is discontinued you should be able to get logic for windows pretty cheap.

my advice would be to keep an eye out for logic. if you do switch to logic, hope that sooner or later acid gets rewire, or use the phatmatik pro vsti in logic for your loops, or jump ship to sonar or ableton live which both support rewire and sync them with logic.

Subject:RE: I Have...

Reply by: dkistner

Date:1/11/2003 5:31:41 AM

I'll take your advice, coolout, and keep my eyes peeled for the bargain basement Logic special! Thanks for the tips.