Subject:quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Posted by: sanscassette

Date:12/29/2002 10:34:07 AM

Need some help from people knowlegeable about ripping...

I am trying to convert cassette recordings into CDs. If I burn a wav file onto a CDR and then later rip this audio cd back to a wav file using Sound Forge, will there be any loss in quality?

In other words if I wanted to save audio for processing later, can it safely be saved as an audio cd or should I save it on a data cd as a wav file? I would much rather save it as an audio cd so that I can use it on a cd player.

Subject:RE: quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Reply by: specktron

Date:12/29/2002 12:35:42 PM

You should use data (AND audio if you to listen on cdplayer). Data will be more accurate than a rip. And if you do burn both, you can use the cheap data cds rather than more expensive music or audio cds for the cd audio because if the cd audio gets corrupt or skips, you just burn another copy from the data cd. I have never had any problems pulling data from cheap cds. But if you put cd audio on these cheap cds, you risk losing it from either processing glitches, dust, scratches, or other forms of deterioration.

BTW, you can also improve extraction accuracy by moving the slider in options/preferences/cd settings to the left.

Subject:RE: quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:12/29/2002 2:27:22 PM

There is NO difference in quality between data CD-Rs and audio CD-Rs. They are exactly the same discs. The audio CD-Rs are more expensive because they come with a license code pre-recorded on them so that when you go to a music store that lets you buy music "by the track" and record it to CD, you can use one of these discs to prove you've paid more for the licensing fee. These recorders (and some duplicators) require the licensing code on the disc or they won't record. This licensing fee supposedly goes to the music production companies. Data CD-Rs are perfectly good for audio but don't contain this licensing code. You'll be able to use them for recording audio CDs in your home burner and the result will be identical to using the more expensive Audio CD-Rs.

Theoretically a rip from an audio CD should be identical to reading a .wav file from a data CD. The only difference will be due to errors in the reading process. If a data CD has an error, often the whole track will be unreadable, or at least the portion of the track from the error to the end. If an audio CD has an error you will often end up with only a tiny glitch at the error point and the rest of the track will be fine.

Subject:RE: quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Reply by: sanscassette

Date:12/29/2002 8:06:40 PM

Thanks for the info. guys.

Chienworks, realistically what kind of errors (quantity, quality) can one expect in the reading process?

I wonder if there is a way to compare two wav files to tell the difference between them...

Subject:RE: quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:12/29/2002 9:18:04 PM

So far i've probably ripped several thousand CD audio tracks and read in several thousand .wav files from data CDs. In a few cases i'm sure i've gone through multiple generations of writing to CD and reading back. I've yet to notice an error except for gross damage to the CD that prevents it from being read at all. Several of those i was able to recover by carefully washing the disc. In a couple of cases i slowed the read speed of the drive from max (40x in the case of my drive) down to 2x and was able to read at that speed. I've never had an apparent glitch in the process. Then again, i haven't taken the time to critically listen to every last track i've ever imported or look at the entire waveform display at 1:1 zoom. I've never had a client complain yet though.

One way you can compare two .wav files is to load them both into separate SoundForge windows, invert one, copy it, and paste/mix it with the other. Theoretically if they're identical, this process will cause them to cancel each other out and leave you with a flat -infinity dB line. Of course, it also assumes that they're the same bit rate, sample size, length, etc. If you generally are working with 44.1KHz 16 bit stereo files for audio CDs then this should be the case.

Subject:RE: quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Reply by: specktron

Date:12/30/2002 12:16:57 AM

You are absolutely right of course. Cd Audio gets more play and consequential wear and tear. I understand about the cd music, there is no difference in quality. The difference comes from different (and mostly unnecessarily costly) cd burners and players being able to burn and play limited types of cds. If the client has a cd player that he paid $500 for two years ago and it only reads the "music" or "audio" cds, what can I say to them? That they are stupid for believing their own manual when it is essentially correct? Regardless of the reason, burn both data and audio for your own use and, yes use data cds unless you are at least pressing 100K worth of images for internationl distribution.

You can't even submit a decent piece of music to anyone who can place it anymore unless it is at least 24 bit. And they want it so they can pop it in their brand new (free to them) 24 bit cd players. Talk about being out of touch with the real world who mostly listens to 128 cbr mp3s? "It's my not fault the world is so ignorant" just won't cut it anymore. You have to give them what they want.

Subject:RE: quality of ripped CDs vs. original wav file

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/30/2002 10:32:49 AM

Chienworks, is 100% correct. Going back to the original question that was asked. The questions was, will there be a difference or quality loss between burning to a .Wav file on a Cdrom or to an audio CD, and then ripping back into Sound Forge? The answer, as Chienworks described is "NO".

Things to remember though. An audio CD is burned at 44.1Khz/16 bit format. If you're original .WAV file was at 96Khz/24bit format, then "YES" there will be a loss in quality when burning to an audio CD over burning to a CDrom. The CDrom will maintain the format of the .WAV file. If you're original .WAV was at 44.1/16bit, then go ahead and burn to an audio CD and you won't have to worry about quality loss going back and forth.

"And they want it so they can pop it in their brand new (free to them) 24 bit cd players."

Most newer CD players, and more often now, DVD players are multiple file supported. So although an audio CD is 44.1Khz/16bit, and your new CD player is 24bit capable. This is most likely because it also supports playback of 24bit .WAV files which will use the additional bits supported by the player. So you can burn a 24bit CDrom .Wav file and play it back in your CD player. Also note that the standard format for DVD audio is 96Khz/24bit. So if you playback a DVD in your new player, it also will use the full bit depth for DVD.

Spektron,
You make some valid points, but they really don't pertain to the original question. You're talking about archiving your data and good backing up techniques, so that you don't lose your original data. I agree with your statements, I burn my clients an audio CD and then back up all their original data to a CDrom which get's stored in a safe place until the next time they come back and that has saved them many times when they come back and say, "I scratched my master CD you gave me, and it doesn't play back anymore." That's when I say, "no problem, I have everything backed up and I'll make you a new one." Basically, you're making 2 different back ups, which is always a safe practice, rather than putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm sure Chienworks does this also, but as I mentioned this was getting a little off topic of the original question.

BTW, I love my new DVD player, which has 24bit outputs and supports CD, CDR, CDRW, and MP3 file support. There's some days when I'm watching a DVD, there's other days when I'm listening to a particular CD, and then there's other days where I'm cleaing the house and put in a CDrom with a 150 MP3 files of my favorite songs on it and I have to never switch discs and it still sounds better than FM radio.