Subject:Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Posted by: luces

Date:12/24/2002 3:04:35 AM

Okay, hopefully the confusing nature of the title has got your attention,so now I will proceed.

I have recently been messing with some VSTi stuf(free samples) and I really like the quality and expressiveness of these softsynths. My question is this, given the latency issue w Audiophile24/96(using Win98se), would I be better off upgrading to XP or getting something like Cubasis VST4.0(and staying with 98se for a while) in order to be able to have better latency compatibility with VSTi?

I primarily use AP4.0b for everything and then transfer to Vegas Audio LE(it came with my Sound Forge) when I need to do hard disk stuff(only 8 tracks though), BUT....if I could transfer my stuff to something like Cubasis(it has 48 audio tracks and 64 midi tracks) and THEN I could have access to some cool VSTi, I would think that would be better!

The ONLY thing I do with my computer is audio stuff(and of course get on the net) so I want to get the most bang for my buck with the best reliability possible.

I appreciate any suggestions you can throw my way!!! luces

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: jam

Date:12/24/2002 5:02:24 AM

Hi !
I don't know if it can helps but M$ has announced (sorry I can't remember where I read that) they will STOP support for NT3.5 and 95 in january 2003, and in summer no more support for 98, 98se and NT4.
It seems XP is becoming THE thing then.
If you own a M-Audio, logic delta can bring you some features you can have in buying a cubasis.
Concerning cubase, maybe (soon) no more support/updates for 98/98se.
I can't give you any directive advise, but with the softwares and hardware you already have, you should first give a try with XP. i'm not sure Cubasis is useful.
Hope it helps you a little,
Regards,
jam

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: dkistner

Date:12/24/2002 5:34:58 AM

Luces, I may be horribly wrong, so don't listen just to me. But I'll tell you my experience.

First (and this is to anyone who might be confused about this), do NOT confuse Cubasis--Cuba*SIS*--VST with Cu*BASE* VST. Cubase VST is a high-end program; Cubasis is not. Also do not confuse VST with VSTi (VST instruments). I did, and I wound up with a little fluffy piece of nothing program that didn't seem capable of handling VSTis at all. I couldn't find a way to use them in it, anyway, and the user interface was so annoying I finally took it off my system. Cubasis VST had come free with my soundcard, so at least I hadn't shelled out $99 for it!

XP--I've been using XP Pro for a year, and I like the OS. The only thing that might be tricky with it is getting IRQs properly assigned to soundcards (like the Mia) that demand their own IRQ. I've been told by several tech people that IRQs in XP should never be manually tweaked; that you can't do this in XP like you could in earlier Windows versions without wreaking havoc with the OS. These were not audio-savvy people, though, and they may have been pulling the old "Lady, you pump your own gas at your peril!" number on me, too. So I don't know how right they are...but I have been too terrified to try manual IRQ tweaking. I had to disable other hardware (second sound card, modem) through the OS to get my Echo Mia to work.

I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable will explain to both of us ONE THING about this whole latency issue: Is latency a huge concern if one is not syncing together external gear or using master/slave software arrangements? If one is just bringing a midi file into Acid and using VSTis to get individual voice lines (i.e., midi channels) rendered out to audio waves prior to mixing, is the magic "low latency" number that big of a deal?

I have been paralyzed over this latency issue--which drivers to use for the lowest latency, did I buy the best soundcard, which piece of software has the least latency problems, yadayadayada. Before I'd ever heard the word, I was actually making music. Ignorance is bliss?

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: billybk

Date:12/24/2002 7:25:29 AM

You will get more bang for the buck by getting XP Home Edition (upgrade $65-$80) street)and then fully utilizing the WDM drivers for your Audiophile. Then use the (Delta_WDM_ ACID40Fix_BETA.EXE)drivers, for some reason they are no longer listed on the M-Audio support/drivers site, but I could email you a copy of the drivers, which fixed some problems in ACID 4.0. With these drivers, in ASIO mode, I am able to achieve stable 5msec(choose 256 DMA buffers in the Delta panel)in ACID 4.0b, with no crackling or dropouts in the audio, while playing softsynths in real-time from myMIDI keyboard. If you do get XP, I suggest a clean install, and depending on the age and type of motherboard you have, you may have to install in "Standard PC" mode in order to get your audio card on its own IRQ(very important for performance reasons). You do have a 2nd dedicated 7200RPM "audio" hard drive, right? If not, then that would be my second purchase.

HTH,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: MyST

Date:12/24/2002 7:33:27 AM

Before you uprade to XP, make sure to check to see if all your existing hardware is complatible with XP. I was using my Turtle Beach Montego as a midi interface before, since my Mia doesn't have one. The Turtle Beach card is no longer supported for XP, therefore, I now have no midi. Also, I changed my 3Dfx Voodoo 3-2000 for an ATI Radeon 7500 video card.
So, if you don't research first, you might end up with extra costs.

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: Dewaine

Date:12/24/2002 9:39:07 AM

Get XP! Come and join us in the 21st century! Really, XP is soooooooooooooo stable compared to 98se,95...etc. After you get any driver issues ironed out, you will be very pleased with XP. Also, just use the latest XP drivers for the 2496 on the m-audio site. The reason they do not have the Acid betas anymore is that the latest drivers have it built in. I use them and Acid is more stable than it has ever been.

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: RasKeita

Date:12/24/2002 10:23:37 AM

If I were looking I think I'd opt for
http://usa.magix.com/index.php?4153
This is by far the most bang for the buck...I found after starting with cut down versions of different applications I've wanted and needed more features. As I gained more knowledge and skills I find the base versions no longer suit my needs. I started with Cubasis now have Nuendo, Started with Acid Music now have Acid Pro versions(2,3,4), began with Sound Forge XP now use Version 6. The more proficient you become the limitations of cut/entry level versions become a hinderance. I suggest drop the cash get Sonar 2.1 now let it grow with you. XP is by far the most stable OS MS has come up with, forward thinking says eventually 98 and such will be phased out so you'll be left with no choice but to upgrade, might as well start learning it. "Just my humble opine"

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: billybk

Date:12/24/2002 10:31:23 AM

Dewaine,
Which XP drivers, specifically, are you using? The 5.10.00.27 drivers were released back in MAY, way before ACID 4.0. The 5.10.0031 beta drivers have had some stability issues and don't support less than 10msec latency in SONAR, which I also use. The latest Delta_29x12_Pro.EXE(also beta released on 12/11/02) have given me trouble in SONAR 2.1, ACID Pro 4.0b & SF6.0d:
I would lose audio in SF6.0d and ACID 4.0b. The level meters in the software
would move as normal, but no audio or meter movement from the Delta device.
I would get audio with the Multichannel drivers but not with the normal,
single channel ones in SF6.0d.
I would eventually get a blue screen when previewing ACIDized loops in SONAR
2.1(especially multiple loop preview) & ACID 4.0b.

I went back to my previous drivers(Delta_WDM_ ACID40Fix_BETA.EXE)and all is
well again in all of my apps and I am able to achieve stable low latencies and loop previews in both SONAR 2.1 & ACID 4.0b. For me, the ACID40Fix_BETA drivers are the best solution. If you happen to find, you need them in the future, I can email them to you, as they are no longer available on the M-Audio website.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: ATP

Date:12/24/2002 10:46:42 AM

billybk, i have recently ordered an Audiophile, still waiting for it to arrive. if possible i'd be interested in a copy of your Acid40fix drivers, just in case i might need them. do i understand correctly tho that these drivers are not an addon to the .27 drivers, but you can just install the Acid40fix drivers on their own?

thanks in advance!
g@crookram.net

as for the the original poster's question, i can advise you to upgrade to XP first. all your current audio software will benefit from it, also because you can then really use the ASIO drivers to its fullest. then you can always get Cubase. i have to agree with dkistner in that if you do get Cubase, do NOT get Cubasis instead. it's a heavily crippled version of Cubase, and does not perform nearly as well. if you have some bucks to spare Cubase SX/SL is a good option.

hth.

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: luces

Date:12/24/2002 10:51:09 AM

billybk, I have decided on XP. I downloaded a demo of Cubasis.....very clunky! Anyhow, I,too would love the beta driver and any isntall instructions that pertain. Thanks a TON!!!!!

rvaladez@pdq.net

Subject:RE: ACID40Fix drivers sent to ATP & luces

Reply by: billybk

Date:12/24/2002 1:11:13 PM

Let me know that you guys received the drivers OK.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: ACID40Fix drivers sent to ATP & luces

Reply by: ATP

Date:12/24/2002 3:25:29 PM

i did. thanks again, m8. :)

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: Dewaine

Date:12/24/2002 10:22:54 PM

Billybk,

I am using the http://www.midiman.net/support/drivers/new/Delta_29x12_Pro.EXE drivers and have had zero problems with them. I run Sonar 2.1 and Acid 4.0b and Fruityloops 3.56 . I have the Audiophile 2496 card, XP with service pack 1, 1gig Athlon and a piece of crap mobo (sis 735 chip set), and 512megs ram.

Dewaine

Subject:RE: ACID40Fix drivers sent to ATP & luces

Reply by: luces

Date:12/24/2002 11:41:48 PM

I just received the driver! Thanks a TON and have a great holiday!!!!!!! luces

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: dkistner

Date:12/25/2002 6:58:24 AM

Billy Buck, this "Standard PC" mode...I don't think I've ever seen anything that's given me a choice when installing XP Pro. Does that likely mean it's not an issue with my motherboard? Or would the fact that my drive is formatted NTFS affect this (and the IRQ isolation issue)?

Santa brought me a system that's twice as powerful (2gig Pentium IV) as the one I already have (Athlon 1gig). It's a hand-me-down from my partner, who has to have the latest-greatest computer every year or so. (My, what a sexy Gateway he just got. Drool.) I'm very pleased with the IDEA of a new computer...but groaning because I know what's ahead of me getting it set up.

We've got to do a clean install after we get through today (Christmas), so if there's something I'd benefit from knowing before we do it, somebody say! He left the original soundcard in (one of the Lives, I think) and put my Mia into the modem slot (pulling the unneeded modem). On my Athlon, I had to disable the Live! card to get the Mia to work.

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: billybk

Date:12/25/2002 7:43:45 AM

dkister,
It really depends on your motherboard. I have an ASUS CUSL2-C(couple of years old). If it is a newer one, less than a year old and it uses APIC instead of ACPI as its default operating mode, then you probably don't have to worry about it. The idea is to get your audio card on it's own IRQ, to prevent the ubiquitus snap,crackle,pop syndrome that usually happens when your audio card is sharing an IRQ with other devices. In Standard PC mode you are able to change IRQ's, in ACPI, all devices are normally assigned to the same IRQ, usually #9 and can't be changed. This only applies to desktop computers.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: billybk

Date:12/25/2002 7:52:34 AM

Dewaine,
For the first week, I didn't notice any problems either, then strange things started happening with the latest Delta(29x12)drivers. I have reported the problems to M-Audio and gone back to my previous drivers(Delta_WDM_ ACID40Fix_BETA.EXE). Just remember these (29x12) drivers are still in beta, report any inconsistences to M-Audio support so that they are aware of them and provide a fix.

DESKTOP OR LAPTOP: Desktop
CHIPSET: ASUS CUSL2-C
CPU TYPE: PIII
CPU SPEED: 1Ghz
RAM: 512MB
GRAPHICS CARD: NVidia TNT2 Pro AGP 32MB
OPERATING SYSTEM: WinXP Pro
SERVICE PACKS:

PRIMARY INVOLVED SOFTWARE: SONAR 2.1/ACID 4.0b/SF6.0d
MIDIMAN & M-AUDIO PRODUCTS: Delta 66
PROBLEM HAS EXISTED SINCE (1) week ago
ANY SERVICES OR UPGRADES? Upgraded Delta drivers to the latest WDM (29x12)
Pro.EXE (BETA)

THE PROBLEM:

I would lose audio in SF6.0d and ACID 4.0b. The level meters in the software
would move as normal, but no audio or meter movement from the Delta device.
I would get audio with the Multichannel drivers but not with the normal,
single channel ones in SF6.0d.
I would eventually get a blue screen(requiring a re-boot) when previewing ACIDized loops in SONAR 2.1(especially multiple loop preview) & loop preview in ACID 4.0b.
I went back to my previous drivers(Delta_WDM_ ACID40Fix_BETA.EXE)and all is
well again.

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/25/2002 8:46:33 AM

Go here for some excellent info on installing and optimizing XP for audio:
http://www.musicxp.net/

Good luck and Happy Holidays!

drbam

Subject:RE: billybk, something to think about

Reply by: Dewaine

Date:12/25/2002 8:00:41 PM

I wasn't really thinking before, actually I am running Acid 4.0a and not b. I had the same issues as you, but only AFTER I installed Acid 4.0b. I un-installed it and put 4.0a back on and problem solved. Sonar would loose audio and act "strange" but Acid itself seemed to be fine.....

Since then I have done a clean install of XP home (I had it install over 98se which was over 95, it was time for a fresh start) and tried 4.0b again, and the audio started acting up in Sonar. I un-installed it and everything is fine again. Through all of this I had the M-audio drivers from 12/11/02. So the problem may not be the drivers as much as Acid 4.0b....

Bottom line? It really does not make any difference since our machines are working fine now.........

Subject:RE: billybk, something to think about

Reply by: dkistner

Date:12/26/2002 9:31:17 AM

:) We wish.... That link drbam posted is great. I'm going to attempt to install my system NOT as Standard PC, but disable ports I'm not using as recommended and cross my fingers the IRQs will shake out like I need them to for my Mia card to work. Next time I buy a computer, I'm going to be sure to get one with APIC. Alas, I don't have that. A little too rich for my blood right now.

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: swright

Date:12/31/2002 12:19:00 PM

Billy,

I seem to be having a similar problem to the one you faced. Acid Pro 4.0 hangs after only running less than a minute of audio. The audio will stop (no sound) & then Acid hangs after several seconds(no blue screen at least). All other audio packages I have seem to work fine.

I am running:
E-Machines 2.0 Celeron
Windows XP Home
256 MB Ram
Acid Pro 4.0b
no graphics card
Western Digital 40 gig & 80 gig HD's
M-Audio audiophile 2496 - latest drivers as of 12/31/02

I would be interested in the older driver(Delta_WDM_ ACID40Fix_BETA.EXE)that you have if possible.

Also, I've heard that I need to install XP in standard mode to prevent my sound card from sharing IRQ's. Can I switch to standard mode somehow or do I have to re-install (machine is new & came pre-installed, so I may be stuck)? Is there any other way to isolate an IRQ for the soundcard?

Thanks a lot!

Steve Wright

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: dkistner

Date:12/31/2002 1:13:47 PM

Steve, somebody just posted here a few days ago an excellent link to info on this. If I can locate it, I'll edit this message to include it in just a bit.

Ah, there it is, right up above here, drbam's link.

It advises NOT installing XP as Standard PC unless you've just got major irresolvable issues with your audio equipment; and to try the default installation first. I did that, and I've now got two cards running in my system (a Mia, a Soundblaster) with no problems. I disabled my USB ports, which I am not using, but I didn't even try it without doing that. It might have worked, because the Mia and the USB stuff was on IRQ 9, but I wasn't using any USB devices.

Read that stuff. All of it.

Diane

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: billybk

Date:12/31/2002 1:50:38 PM

Steve,
If you find you need to change from ACPI to Standard PC (it won't hurt your system, if you want to try it)you do not have to re-install your OS, just follow these instructions for XP:

In XP, right click on My Computer on your
desktop and select Properties. Once in system
properties, select the Hardware tab and then
Device Manager. You should be presented with a
device tree listing all the components in your system.
Near the top, click on the plus + sign next to Computer.
Right click on ACPI and select "Update Driver". Follow the
prompts to install to "Standard PC" Afterwards, reboot
your computer, it should then reconfigure (hardware devices)
itself. You can double check by repeating the above process.
Instead of saying ACPI when you click on the + plus sign
next to Computer it should now say "Standard PC".


I can send you the ACID40Fix drivers if you provide me with your email address.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Trying to make a choice-Cubase or XP?

Reply by: swright

Date:12/31/2002 4:06:53 PM

Thanks a lot Billy - my e-mail address is swright@wadetrim.com.

Thanks, Steve