Subject:Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Posted by: hsonik

Date:11/12/2002 11:10:09 AM

(in reference to topic below "Things I would like to see in Acid 5.0")

I think its obvious that Acid needs to have a more open environment for VST instruments. Right now, its great for multitrack composition and editing, but not for live tweaking and composing.

So the choices are either: 1-add rewire master support (and hope orion and other vst hosts add rewire slave support like some already have) or 2-change acid so that we can see and use more than 1 vst instrument at a time.

If I was SoFo, Id buy Synapse Audio and forge orion and acid together into a super music composition environment. But Im not, so all I can do is dream and waste my time writing here. ;-)

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/12/2002 11:15:48 AM

If you were SOFO, you'd be spending all your time trying to figure out how to retain personnel whose stock options are worthless.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: bgc

Date:11/12/2002 12:22:52 PM

Dude, nearly EVERYBODY'S stock options are worthless. ;)

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/12/2002 1:19:01 PM

While that's absolutely true at Disney and Microsoft and a lot of other tech icons, they're not releasing garbage to keep the doors open. Today's analysis from Invest Tech:

"SOFO has fallen 84% since the peak on 28 Nov 2001 at 3.58. Is within a falling trend, which indicates a continued decline"

Given the extremely troubled product that 4.0 is, issues are raised concerning the continued viability of the product line. The growing nostalgia for 3.0g is hard to ignore: a formerly simple yet effective, dynamic and truly fun looping product has become a tangled and buggy mess of half-baked hybridized concepts.

Can SOFO pull a winner out of its tattered hat at this point? You'd like to think so, but given the stressed resource base behind the scenes that produced 4.0 in the first place, they have a lot of convincing to do under dubious circumstances.

Potential investors in the Acid Pro product need to look long and hard at the curious quality gap between 3.0g and 4.0 before delving in--is it a nuisance gully or a screaming black hole sucking your hard-earned cash into oblivion?

Sales of Sound Forge 6.0 are down, one of the factors cited by analysts in the current downturn. Sales of AP 4.0 have not been divulged, but if the responses here are any indication, they chased half their user base away to competitors, or back to the safe confines of 3.0g.

SOFO has to get back to over a buck by Jan. to stay on the NASDAQ. Doesn't look like they're gonna make it.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dhanjit

Date:11/13/2002 12:53:18 PM

If you're such an expert on the stock market and business analysis why are you wasting your time here and not making millions? I happen to like Acid Pro 4.0, wouldn't currently switch to another sequencer, and I'm unlikely to for some time, if ever. Hardly any companies get VST instrument implementation completely right on first release (or ever in the case of Emagic Logic), and Acid is the best loop sequencer period. People coming to this forum are customers not shareholders, and if I wanted economic analysis I'd go to someone who knew how to talk out of a different orifice than the one you're using.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/13/2002 1:07:53 PM

Then you're a complete fool. You're substituting hysterical emotion for a calm analysis of the facts at hand. And these are the facts, make no doubt. Of course this forum is involved with investment--investment of time and money into a particular product. And investors in Acid need to evaluate whether they're putting their valuable time and hard-earned money into a venture with long-term viability. Only a complete moron like yourself would operate otherwise.

For the rest of us, looking at Acid and its parent company from an economic viewpoint the way you would look at any investment is just standard practice. The pluses and minuses without silly, childish affect. Whenever you get into these internet investment forums where everyone is gushing about stock X and violently attacking doubters, you know there are scam artists and touters at work to drive the price up so they can print more stock from their portable press and sell it out of their car.

Users shouldn't be afraid of a cold, clear look at the state of SOFO as represented in its stock value, its quarterly reports and market analysis, and also in the quality of its releases. It's the touters, the scam artists who try to drive the facts, the truth out of the forum that should be the objects of scorn and suspicion.

This simple question says it all: what are you so afraid of?

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: skot

Date:11/13/2002 1:31:06 PM

QUOTE""
If you're such an expert on the stock market and business analysis why are you wasting your time here and not making millions? I happen to like Acid Pro 4.0, wouldn't currently switch to another sequencer, and I'm unlikely to for some time, if ever. Hardly any companies get VST instrument implementation completely right on first release (or ever in the case of Emagic Logic), and Acid is the best loop sequencer period. People coming to this forum are customers not shareholders, and if I wanted economic analysis I'd go to someone who knew how to talk out of a
different orifice than the one you're using.


A INSIDER NO DOUBT!!

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dhanjit

Date:11/13/2002 3:16:13 PM

My "calm analysis of the facts at hand" is that if Sonic Foundry went bust, I'd still have my Acid 4.0 and still be able to do all the things I can do now. One of the great things about Acid is that I don't have to "invest" lots of time to do simple things, I just get on with making my music.

Sure I'd look at the future of a company if I was buying a car (and even then other companies would make parts) but for a piece of software that cost me $99, I just want to get on and use it without being lectured by assholes who think they're George Soros. If that makes me a "complete moron", I can live with that.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dhanjit

Date:11/13/2002 3:21:20 PM

Quote: "A INSIDER NO DOUBT!!"

I'm just someone who likes using Acid Pro to make my music.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dkistner

Date:11/13/2002 4:27:49 PM

I expect those at SoFo who are working very hard trying to pull things together don't benefit much from being piled on. And we're not likely to benefit from it either. It's hard to keep working at something when your spirits keep getting knocked down. I, for one, have faith. I know, I know...faith does not guarantee a "return on investment." It's only for naive and stupid people, some would say. But this world needs a little more faith and compassion and HOPE and a little less focus on the dirty almighty buck. The world also needs a little more understanding that it takes communal effort to accomplish anything. We're part of that communal effort, people. We can't sit around in our adolescent vetching, expecting somebody else to fix it all for us and trashing them if they don't.

Yeah, I'd like Acid 4 to be improved. But it's not like it's a 401K with Enron. And compared to having food on the table and a roof over my head--for which I am very grateful, as many don't have even this--Acid is a tiny concern. Except to the people working for SoFo, because I'm sure food and a roof are inextricably tied to PERCEPTIONS of the company's success. Have a heart and a little bit larger perspective, is all I'm saying.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: analoguekid

Date:11/13/2002 9:20:58 PM

What dhanjit said...
Right On!

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/14/2002 12:53:37 AM

Looks like SOFO is looking for $399.96 "dirty almighty bucks" for this product, so I guess they're not the free love hippies you'd like to characterize them as. They are in business, as are a lot of potential buyers.

If you'd like to call careful investors in this product childish names, go right ahead, you're only painting yourself with your own ugly hate spew.

The rest of us will revere 3.0g, evaluate the usefulness of a highly dysfunctional 4.0+, and weigh into the balance the chance that there may not be support or development in the near future based on simple facts readily available to all on the financial page.

That's called rational thought. Try it sometime.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dhanjit

Date:11/14/2002 1:00:29 AM

So "complete fool" and "complete moron" aren't childish names? I'm so glad you're around to educate me.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dkistner

Date:11/14/2002 7:58:30 AM

"Rational thought"? Can we say "projection," boys and girls?

I paid $99 for my copy of Acid Pro 4.0. I've paid that much for products that do far, far less than Acid. So, even with its bugs right now, I got more than my money's worth. Heck, just getting the information I've gotten in this forum alone has been more than my money's worth...and that doesn't even count the free loop libraries, etc. So, Maruk, don't call me a hippie chick or whatever that was you said because I'm defending SoFo. My sense of entitlement is different from yours is all I'm gonna say.

Now, the $395 I paid for another program that's far buggier, trashed my system to the point it had to be removed for good and the whole system fresh installed; the one that doesn't have a development team to respond to user requests or program updates...that one I'm pissed about. But I wouldn't grouse about it in a public forum. I've already let the developer know how dissatisfied I am.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/14/2002 11:04:54 AM

dhanjit: Note: I was not the instigator of the personal attack. Check the sequesnce--you, quite unprovoked, began attacking me personally with a name-calling barrage which SOFO claims is banned from from this forum. Of course, you can swear a 4-letter blue streak if you're touting their junk.

And if you simply point out public financial facts about the company, facts which directly relate to the future viability of Acid as a supported product, they block your posts. They blocked one of mine last night. Man, these losers are REALLY getting desperate!

Bottomline, you want to launch an ad hominem unprovoked attack against me, be prepared to pay the price. But I have never, nor will never, be an instigator to any poster just minding their own business who wants to inform fellow users about Acid-related information.

BTW, who cares about your $99, lots of new users are paying SOFO their requested $399.96 for Acid. That is a serious investment, and one worth considering most carefully.

A simple headcount from this forum reveals 4 out of 5 users are having serious problems with

Beware internet touters and scam artists--believe the volume of 4.0 responses here, both positive and negative, and draw your own conclusions. Not the spew from individual spin doctors desperate to stick a band-aid on 4.0. Many sincere, long-time users are appalled at the shoddy workmanship in this rev. It is by no means "business as usual".

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: decrink

Date:11/14/2002 12:20:36 PM

HE'S BACK!
(And even scarier than in the last postings)
You KNOW who I'm talking about.
He's got out the chainsaw and started hacking away.
Cause the only advice he gives on the product is none.
He never bought it never will.
From: another Acid 4.0 $99 and it works just fine user.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dhanjit

Date:11/14/2002 12:23:08 PM

Quote: "you, quite unprovoked, began attacking me personally with a name-calling barrage which SOFO claims is banned from from this forum"

I said: "someone who knew how to talk out of a different orifice than the one you're using"

Childish and name calling perhaps, but hardly a barrage.

What I've had from you is:
"you're a complete fool"
"You're substituting hysterical emotion for a calm analysis"
"Only a complete moron like yourself"
"violently attacking doubters"
"scam artists and touters"
"should be the objects of scorn and suspicion"

That's a barrage. And you wonder why I then called you an asshole.

I like using Acid Pro 4.0. It does what I want it to do. I don't need you making me out to be a freak and a conman for saying this.

The best thing about this forum is the "Ignore This User" option. There, that's better already.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: PHATDRUMS

Date:11/14/2002 1:06:52 PM

i dont particulary agree with everything maruuk says but recently posts that are critical of a4 have been removed my own included there were no abusive or offensive
comments about individuals either, maybe just a heavy dose of sarcasm is to much
for sofo staff personally im disgusted about censorship from a company that resides
in a country that shouts to around the world about it being the the land of the free
or has good ol w bush changed the constitution

sofo released an unfinished product that has had bad reaction in general not because
the ideas behind a4 are bad rather than poor implementation of those ideas so expect
a little crital flak, it has all the stablility of a unicyle
sofo should grow up do you really think shareholders care about a few comments in a peer forum i dont think so, they care that you release good products that work so people buy them simple really
censorship of any kind stinks and you know it

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: spiral_scratch

Date:11/14/2002 2:55:24 PM

oh dear. just when I thought it was safe to come back into the forums.

It now seems that we have to post in order to be counted in the camp of folks not having a problem with Acid 4.0 - and I thought this was a support forum!

OK here goes...I am a happy user of Acid 4.0a (and 4.0 before it). I experience no glitches or lock ups. I am running windows xp and using Asio drivers (Terratec DMX fire). It works much better for me than any v3 release and I am really pleased with the OPT extensions and other new features.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/14/2002 3:15:47 PM

Bravo, PHATDRUMS! 4.0 was no doubt conceived in good faith trying to expand the feature set for the good users. Unfortunately, its development coincided with a nasty downturn for the company in general, and with the dwindling resources they weren't able to ship it after a proper beta vetting--they just dumped it down the tubes on an unsuspecting public.

Yes, it works for some folks. No, it doesn't for most.

It would be nice if truth was allowed to be posted here, and not just the sugar-coated truth SOFO would like to propogate.

Facts: Acid has always been a great and innovative product.

4.0 has been a public relations disaster for SOFO.

SOFO is struggling to keep afloat.

They are likely to be delisted off the NASDAQ by 1/14/03.

SOFO is sincerely trying to make amends in future revs of 4.0+.

All users, and I mean all, hope they can make it through, and produce a robust and professional version of this beloved product that can run on a stable basis on a very wide spectrum of hardware, just like 3.0g.

Like all truths, the good is mixed up with the bad. Will SOFO allow the WHOLE TRUTH to be spoken here?

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: asopaque

Date:11/14/2002 4:59:53 PM

question:

Is Maruuk as intelligent, well informed, conspiracy-theory inclined, well spoken (when dealing with a specific topic he knows about), nasty, childish, and abusive as he appears here on the forum?

man, you are so on your game, why tear people new orifices for them just being them? so what if someone is happy with 4.0? is your situation so demanding that you just can't get on with 3.0g and just make some music? do you feel that you are bettering this forum, your headspace, or the music world by putting someone down?

if you would just picture that there's another breathing, living person on the other end of your statements, took a moment to breathe into that thought, and then continued with your intelligent dialogue, I would happily read ALL your posts and appreciate your thoughts. Unfortunately, i have to attempt to filter out the bile that you project. your thoughts on SOFO's stability and acid's future are all very interesting. when you go off calling people morons and such(and then childishly saying they started the pissing match and therefore you are more than JUSTIFIED in slinging heaps back at them...bet you were fun in the sandbox as a kid!), you just come across as a small, bitter person who has too much time on his hands.

(which i am going to assume you're not, or do not wish to be). if that's the case, why project a false impression when it serves no purpose?

best regards,

rich

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/14/2002 5:32:48 PM

Rich dude, I'm just posting along, minding my own business, not personally insulting or attacking anyone, when some weasel comes along and goes way out of his or her way to make an ad hominem attack on me. Name-calling, baiting, lying, casting aspersions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a right to defend myself against slander and abuse. It's true, I'm not Jesus. But after all, who is?

Note, you are being polite and thoughtful, and I'm responding in kind.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: asopaque

Date:11/14/2002 6:13:36 PM

hmmm...this is one to consider carefully, because i really don't want to fight with ya on this one. but here goes, ok?

<Rich dude, I'm just posting along, minding my own business, not personally insulting or attacking anyone>

i'm going to have to disagree there, to an extent, because your responsed to people has an edge of attack and insult to it.

<when some weasel comes along>

my point exactly. how do you know he's a weasel? how do you know how if a statement like that would be taken very lightly and offhanded, or that someone might be really insulted by it? was it your interpretation of his words that made you determine he's a 'weasel'? are the other posters free to think you're a 'weasel'? could they say that here without you feeling attacked?

<and goes way out of his or her way to make an ad hominem attack on me. Name-calling, baiting, lying, casting aspersions. >

totally my opinion here, but if what the other posters have written is what you call "Name-calling, baiting, lying, casting aspersions", then i would say that you've returned the favor, at least in the name-calling and baiting departments.

<Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a right to defend myself against slander and abuse. It's true, I'm not Jesus. But after all, who is?>

sure, you do, as we all do. but slander and abuse is the kind of stuff people go to court over. to me, this is just a few geeks (me included) bashing opinions on a public forum on something we're passionate about. i've spent enough time on a few forums (line6, logic, cubase, looper's delight, sofo...see, i am a geek) to know that being the bigger person in a pissing match (especially if you know your shit), goes a long way. People respect the combination of level headedness in a storm AND the intelligent information that's available. I'd bet money that the respect level people have for you on this forum would take a significant leap if you steered clear of throwing fuel on the fire by 'defending yourself'.

just my 2 cents.

<Note, you are being polite and thoughtful, and I'm responding in kind.>

but what would Jesus do? hehe...

best regards,

rich

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:11/14/2002 7:30:26 PM

Maruuk you really need to work on your "tact". Things are bad enough already all around...nobody likes someone to just spill out the "bad news" that we all know already cause we've heard it over and over again. I just read back at the start of this post and YOU are dead wrong for calling dhanjit a fool to begin with. After all this time even the newbies are turned off to something you've said before...now is there something wrong with all of us or...you figure it out. I trust you.

Plus what business do you have posting in this thread with "If you were SOFO, you'd be spending all your time trying to figure out how to retain personnel whose stock options are worthless". Where in the title of this thread does it state an opinion of sofo's longevity? No it did not. Your wrong to even then go on to remind us of your typing skills in post #4. Why can't you see how "we" see this as being bad? If their was a thread that asked about sofo's future and you stated that above statement I would just pass it along...but you try to "fit" your opinion in anywhere and everywhere and THATS what makes you look bad. Really.

Please maruuk can you give some "positive/creative" ideas for what you would like to see in AP5...Sorry, a AP3.0g w/ rewire is out of the question since the bugs will be worked out in 4.0B shortly[IMHO].

Your not wrong for what your saying...its that the forums have been great all this time since you've stopped posting depressing crap that it really sucks to see you "instigate" a fight again...and thats what your doing dude...yes its true.

One more thing...I doubt that if AP4 was bug free/had rewire/full midi+vsti implementation+THE FREAKIN KITCHEN SINK,that sofo would be in any better shape than its in as of right now. It sucks for everybody and no "one" release could cause such a "comeback" that your AP3.0g w/rewire "might have done"[or downfall]...Thats just "guesstimating" right there.

Keep this thread active with ideas of making AP5 great. Please don't have it degrade down to who can be wittier with the next comeback crap.

I persanally think we'll be fine. Stocks have always bounced back over time. And if sofo doesn't make it. Then I guarentee you that I'm going to have a computer running sofo products for as long as I can possibly can...I know of a studio in Manhatten,NYC thats still using DP1 on a old mac...if it aint broke then...Have a good night.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:11/14/2002 9:28:26 PM

"Maruuk you really need to work on your "tact"."

Ah, but you're showing tons of it here, right SHUT?

"Things are bad enough already all around...nobody likes someone to just spill out the "bad news" that we all know already cause we've heard it over and over again."

Actually, most posters here violently deny the financial facts I present.

"I just read back at the start of this post and YOU are dead wrong for calling dhanjit a fool to begin with. After all this time even the newbies are turned off to something you've said before...now is there something wrong with all of us or...you figure it out. I trust you."

Not sure what you're trying to say here--the man insulted me, and got his wrist slapped.

"Plus what business do you have posting in this thread with "If you were SOFO, you'd be spending all your time trying to figure out how to retain personnel whose stock options are worthless"."

Um, I have all the business in the world in a free country posting OPINION (which is most of what appears in all these threads) about the state of the parent company of the very product at the top o0f this forum.

"Where in the title of this thread does it state an opinion of sofo's longevity?"

Oh please, now you're the personally appointed relevancy cop who chases down every thread that EVOLVES from its initial topic. Really, SHUT, that is beneath even YOU!

"Your wrong to even then go on to remind us of your typing skills in post #4."

Actually, I hunt and peck. I'm an awful typist. Sorry for misleading you.

"Why can't you see how "we" see this as being bad?"

Oooo, now you're getting scaaaary! There's an undefined WE that hovers over the thread like an all-knowing, all-seeing demigod? A "WE" that imposes its moral authority over all posters? Wow, this would be getting downright theological--except there's no "logic" in it at all!

"If their was a thread that asked about sofo's future and you stated that above statement I would just pass it along...but you try to "fit" your opinion in anywhere and everywhere and THATS what makes you look bad. Really."

Actually, I haven't posted in here in weeks. Lucky you.

"Please maruuk can you give some "positive/creative" ideas for what you would like to see in AP5...Sorry, a AP3.0g w/ rewire is out of the question since the bugs will be worked out in 4.0B shortly[IMHO]."

I posted constant positive ideas for 12 months before the 4.0 release. Don't want to get repetitive--I know how you hate that. And to whatever extent 4.0b works, I applaud that and wish everyone the best possible use of the product.

"Your not wrong for what your saying...its that the forums have been great all this time since you've stopped posting depressing crap that it really sucks to see you "instigate" a fight again...and thats what your doing dude...yes its true."

I have NEVER instigated a fight in this forum. Ever. And never will. Please retract that slander, sir.

"One more thing...I doubt that if AP4 was bug free/had rewire/full midi+vsti implementation+THE FREAKIN KITCHEN SINK,that sofo would be in any better shape than its in as of right now. It sucks for everybody and no "one" release could cause such a "comeback" that your AP3.0g w/rewire "might have done"[or downfall]...Thats just "guesstimating" right there."

I never suggested that any one element got SOFO in the financial bind they're in. In fact, as I've referenced previously, it was a number of things.

"Keep this thread active with ideas of making AP5 great. Please don't have it degrade down to who can be wittier with the next comeback crap."

Let's keep this thread active with DIVERSITY of opinion, WITHOUT personal insults. I think we've had enough repetitive whining about the midi and VSTi implementation, don't you? Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

"I persanally think we'll be fine. Stocks have always bounced back over time. And if sofo doesn't make it. Then I guarentee you that I'm going to have a computer running sofo products for as long as I can possibly can...I know of a studio in Manhatten,NYC thats still using DP1 on a old mac...if it aint broke then...Have a good night."

There are a number of things that could happen to keep the product vital--a carve-out or acquisition is not out of the question--especially since Acid is such a strong brand. Yet so was Atari, and the Tramiel Brothers gutted it. Whatever happens, there are interesting times ahead.

Anyway, SHUT, I appreciate your taking the time to express yourself so clearly, and so politely. Rest assured, when I bring up SOFO, I do so as sincerely as bringing up Rewire or any other issue that I think helps focus discussion on important and/or relevant issues to use, or purchase. Without sugar-coating or bias.

Anyone who'd like to take issue with either facts or opinions in my posts, fine--SHUT here has shown the way--a discussion and even an argument on issues, not personalities.

Subject:RE: Things I would like to see (not another freaking wishlist!)

Reply by: dkistner

Date:11/15/2002 7:05:09 AM

Yes, ignore user. Really helps refocus one's attention onto things that matter.

Subject:good luck SF!!!

Reply by: aress

Date:11/15/2002 10:34:37 AM

i completely agree with Maruuk....

as an early investor in SF....i am deeply troubled by the news that i see in the financials.... acid4 might be an early sign of the end of SF.... I HOPE NOT...as an early user and now do 80% of my work with SF stuff, i would hate to see this company fail....

but, i have seen early versions of the new pro tools, and i have to tell you all, aside from its price, its stability is unmatched....also they are going to have beatmatching abilities also....

by the way, version 4 sounds 100% better than version 3!!! and verions 4a has been more stable after all sound driver issues were resolved...

good luck sonic foundry....