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Subject:Any opinions ?
Posted by: oddboy
Date:10/30/2002 10:36:08 PM
This is from a microsoft kernal programmer I know who does music. "Don't believe the marketing hype about ASIO. I assure you there is no better streaming media solution on Windows that WDM kernel streaming. At the core of the OS is the "kernel." Like most Windows "standards," we've integrated our streaming media solution deep into the core of the OS to guarantee it works better. Like I said, there is only one Layla driver and it is a WDM driver. ASIO on Windows is merely a wrapper on top of a WDM driver. Any improvement in performance is probably the sign of a poorly written application. In Sonar I can set the latency slider to zero, and play just about anything on my machine. Also, expecting performance out of ACID is ridiculous as it uses 16-bit ADPCM samples anyway..." |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: DataCowboy
Date:10/30/2002 11:15:30 PM
ASIO might be a wrapper on Windows machines, but it begs the question, why do most companies seem to feel the need to wrap WDM and release software with ASIO driver-compatibility and hardware with ASIO drivers instead of pure WDM? Hexadecimal www.freesidemusic.com |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: Laurence
Date:10/30/2002 11:29:22 PM
My laptop performs way better with ASIO drivers than WDM. That's one main reason I'm on Acid instead of Sonar. On my PIII 1.1 notebook, ASIO on a USB audio interface is efficient enough to be practical at low latency and WDM audio simply is not. Laurence Kingston |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: DaSoundGuy
Date:10/31/2002 6:09:39 AM
Only WDM using the MS-unapproved "K-Mixer" bypass that Sonar uses allows for usable and playable low-latencies. Using the strict MS WDM guidelines, there is a minimum latency (I believe it's 30 ms or so) that you can't go beyond. This is real low-priority stuff for MS, since they cater mostly to the general public, for whom this really isn't a priority. ASIO on the other hand, is low-latency by design and works reliably for music production, later iterations being sample-accurate and allowing for extensive control. How many programs other than Sonar have achieved low latencies using WDM? Oddboy, please tell your "MS kernel programmer" to petition MS to OFFICIALLY and finally fix WDM for lower latencies, as well as beef-up the input side of Direct-X. Thanks! DSG |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: bgc
Date:10/31/2002 11:35:21 AM
16-bit ADPCM!? Uhhh, I don't think so. Maybe he meant 16-bit PCM. |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: SonyNateM
Date:10/31/2002 11:52:39 AM
Re: The comment about ACID using ADPCM compressed samples Most certainly not true. Also, I would expect anyone who can speak about ASIO and WDM with the depth that he has to know the difference between PCM and ADPCM audio, so I seriously doubt that he was confusing the two. I think your friend is simply confused about ACID's functionality. Of course ACID is capable of using ADPCM compressed WAV files, just as it is capable of using MP3 compressed WAVs or, gee, I don't know, CCITT A-Law encoded WAV files (not that anyone would want to, but it's possible). All the loops that come with ACID or on our loops CD's are at the very minimum 16-bit, 44,100 Hz, PCM (uncompressed) WAVs. As for ASIO vs WDM, what your friend said is true in some cases. It all depends on the drivers that the card manufacturer provides and their implementation thereof. Some manufacturers have their own, standalone ASIO drivers, some just run ASIO emulation on top of WDM or WDM-KS drivers. It's not up to us, there is no one driver model or method that everyone has support for. Nate |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/2/2002 3:00:04 PM
>> ASIO on Windows is merely a wrapper on top of a WDM driver Not true. Who is this guru of yours? Most WDM kernel drivers for audio hardware talk to a lower level kernel that talks to the hardware. The ASIO driver or the WDM driver or the Wave driver talk to this lowest level driver. >>Also, expecting performance out of ACID is ridiculous as it uses 16-bit ADPCM samples anyway..." Sorry, but your expert is clueless. Have him contact me directly, if he has the nerve to face up to somebody that knows what he is talking about. Peter |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: oddboy
Date:11/2/2002 8:09:58 PM
Well I have more of a Mac background and am just trying to sort out all the PC specs. I would tend to agree with you though because although he is a brilliant programmer he can have a narrow focus. He has since suggested that i not quote him (which I probably shouldnt have done anyway) and admitted that he needs to read up on his specs Anyway now Echo has released PureWave so its a whole new ballgame Anyone have any luck with PW? I used it with success in acid but my system players did not seem to like it...maybe I did not configure something right |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/4/2002 12:24:51 PM
PureWave is a marketing name for Native MME Wave drivers. Basically what Echo has done is exposed a Wave MME user mode driver that talks directly to their low level kernel driver providing Native Wave drivers for their cards. This method provide direct access to the hardware and completely bypasses the Wave emulation of the Kmixer when using normal WDM based drivers. Peter |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: dkistner
Date:11/4/2002 4:19:25 PM
Well, all this is completely bewildering to me! :) I've got an Echo Mia and just downloaded the 6.05 drivers. Yep, PureWave or WDM, that's the choice. I was getting all kinds of crackling with WDM that I didn't know how to fix, but when I selected PureWave it fixed it. But am I sacrificing something here? I can't get the ASIO drivers that came with my Mia to work AT ALL. But I'm glad to know that even techies and programmers who "really know what they're talking about" don't understand all the ins and outs of all this. I'm glad I came in here today, because now I feel a little less dumb! :) |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/4/2002 10:16:38 PM
You sacrifice nothing using PureWave. You actualy gain the loss of the Kmixer in Windows. The kmixer can add significant latency and it will touch EVERY audio buffer that is sent to it. This adds overhead. What kind of problems are you haveing with the ASIO drivers and Mia? Have you contacted Echo tech support regarding this? Peter |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: oddboy
Date:11/4/2002 10:38:57 PM
Can I run PW and WDM out of acid at the same time? anyone one try running PW out digital and wdm in digital at the same time? |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: dkistner
Date:11/5/2002 5:46:44 AM
Peter, I can't compare what's happening with ASIO over several programs because I've really only got Acid at this point. But when I try to select the ASIO driver for the Mia in Acid (there used to be two: ASIO Echo WDM and ASIO Multimedia), Acid tells me I've got a midi loading error and shuts down. Something about not finding the MS synth, I think, although I set it to Midi Mapper instead (not knowing what I'm doing with it) and got the same thing, even after rebooting. I also set Acid not to use Virtual Outs 1/2, because I read somewhere that that's taken by the synth, but I still get the error. If you want to tell me what to try, for troubleshooting purposes, I'll do it and report back. But for now, the PureWave seems to be working great so I don't want to break what's not broken. I'm glad to hear it helps in the latency department. |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: MarkWWWW
Date:11/5/2002 7:29:21 AM
This sounds to me like a similar approach to that adopted by RME (except that RME never bothered to implement WDM at all). Is that correct? |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/5/2002 10:19:02 AM
What External MIDI ports do you have active on your MIDI Prefs page? Peter |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/5/2002 10:20:09 AM
>>This sounds to me like a similar approach to that adopted by RME (except that RME never bothered to implement WDM at all). << Yes, exactly. FWIW: RME needed to solve the plug and play and power management problems. WDM makes this possible - or at least easier. Peter |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/5/2002 10:22:34 AM
>>Can I run PW and WDM out of acid at the same time? Depends on your hardware configuration and the audio hardware you have in your system. To access different sound cards, this would make sense if one had Native Wave drivers and the other had WDM only drivers. However, in this situation, you would never be assured that the cards would be in sync or have the exact same sample clock. I don't know why you would want to do this on the same physical hardware. What benifit would it provide? Peter |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: oddboy
Date:11/5/2002 1:06:26 PM
I was speaking of just with the Layla. Where It has the capability to assign individual ports to either PW or WDM. So i was just wondering if there would issues running both. I dont know that i would need to in practice. |
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Subject:RE: Any opinions ?
Reply by: pwppch
Date:11/5/2002 4:45:53 PM
I would guess that Echo has dealt with this internally in the driver to make it work. Other than that, I would say use one or the other as I can't see any direct benifit of using a combination. Peter |