Subject:How do I cut vocals?

Posted by: chicken666

Date:8/27/2002 2:26:21 AM

I want to cut vocals from an MP3... How do I do that?

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: ATP

Date:8/27/2002 5:03:21 AM

you don't.

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: MyST

Date:8/27/2002 5:15:23 AM

It

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: MyST

Date:8/27/2002 5:15:46 AM

can't

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: MyST

Date:8/27/2002 5:16:07 AM

be

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: MyST

Date:8/27/2002 5:16:25 AM

done

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: MyST

Date:8/27/2002 5:16:45 AM

!!!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Engineer

Date:8/27/2002 6:06:50 AM

It is impossible to take out part of a track that has been mixed. Read past messages here.

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: RiRo

Date:8/27/2002 8:16:52 AM

Under Process, select Vocal Knife and cut away. You just have to be careful not to injure the singer in the process....

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:8/27/2002 7:36:41 PM

Really? I thought there was a guy who posts here sometimes; I think his name is beetle, or something like that; who had a whole system to remove vocals. Guess I must have been thinking about something else.

sk

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:8/27/2002 7:37:41 PM

Why do you ask, chicken666? Are you heavy into Karaoke?

sk

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Weka

Date:8/27/2002 9:03:22 PM

Bloody Rubbish! I do it all the time. But I'm not going to tell you how 'cause it's a secret. My secret!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/28/2002 4:54:19 PM

I saw someone post a solution in here a while back. Sadly, i can't remember who (please stand up and idenfity yourself!) but it works perfectly. Load the mixed song into Sound Forge. Click Process / Volume and drag the Gain down to -Inf. dB. Click OK. Presto. No more vocals!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:8/28/2002 5:35:49 PM

No No No, Chienworks. You've got it ALL WRONG. You left out a whole bunch of very important steps. First you have to use the channel converter. Take 80% of the right channel, and put it in the left channel. Then take 60% of the left channel and put it in the right channel, with a 45% residual to compensate for the middle channel vocals. Then you have to invert both of them, making sure you invert the right channel last. It MUST be last or it won't work as well. Then you need to convert the whole thing to mono. Then it's advisable to change the file to 32 bit floating point. Then you need to insert a CD into your burner. Then you need to dance around the room a couple of times. THEN, and only then, chienworks, can you do what you suggested: "Click Process/Volume and drag the Gain down to -Inf. dB. Click OK. Presto. No more vocals!" I mean, I know you were only trying to help, chienworks, but by posting such an incomplete solution, you were probably going to end up confusing more people than you could help. So I hope you accept my corrections in the spirit in which they were given. I've always learned a lot from your posts in the past, and hope to continue to do so well in the future.

sk

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/28/2002 6:16:36 PM

Thanks sk! Correction accepted. I'm lashing myself with 1718.3 wet noodles right now.

ps. your method does work much better!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:8/28/2002 6:44:18 PM

Apology accepted, c.w. And as I'm sure you're already aware, the net result is the same, but who would want to miss out on all that extra fun in the process? Surely not I!
:-)
(One can never be too cautious when attempting to remove vocals. At least, that's the way I look at it, anyway.)
Good tunes all!

sk

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: dropkick818

Date:8/28/2002 8:33:19 PM

the funny part of the question to me was the mp3 part. like chicken ripped a copy of this programme, ripped an mp3, and now wants to rip the vocals out. i feel bad for the analouge guys out there, you must hate the digital generation.

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:8/29/2002 7:42:55 PM

It seemed to me as if chicken666 had nothing better to do, and felt like getting a rise out of posting the oldest, most hackneyed question this side of Syntrillium. You notice that person's total lack of response to any of the replies, no?

sk

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Jessariah

Date:8/29/2002 11:22:27 PM

It was "chick's" first post...

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:8/30/2002 2:16:05 AM

Well, it was a doosey.
lol

sk

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AE333

Date:9/3/2002 2:50:24 AM

Actually, you guys are all wrong. Because of the
mix process the vocal IS part of the audio file but,
in some instances, it can be removed by changing the
phase of the left and right channels. Most vocals,
being in mono for the direct signal, can be lowered
in volume by mixing a track exactly 180 degrees out
of phase. "Chicken666," this is how those "Vocal
Eliminator" sytems, advertised in the back of "Guitar
Player" magazine, attempt to do this but it is usually
unsatisfactory due to stereo artifacts.
To the rest of you "audio" people who responded
to "Chicken666"'s message, don't be so snotty!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Weka

Date:9/3/2002 4:12:51 AM

It's the intention that produces the snot. Not the methodology. Wanna know how to build an atomic bomb?

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:9/3/2002 8:45:01 AM

"To the rest of you "audio" people who responded
to "Chicken666"'s message, don't be so snotty!"

You also, forgot to mention, that instruments like kick drums and bass guitars are also MONO and panned dead center in the mix, therefore along with also elliminating the vocals with the reverse phase method, you also elliminate all the low end and punch of the song. Plus, most vocals have reverb added to them, which are stereo effects and don't get elliminated , but the dry mono signal does, which leaves you with something that resembles a vocal being sung in the Grand Canyon.

I'm one of the people who have given a step by step method, of how it "can" be done in these forums, but also stress in 99% of the cases it "can't" be done, because of the above reasons among others. If "chicken666" would have done a search in this forum before posting such a lame question, he would have gotten all the info he needed. Please refer to the above responses and Question number "6" in the FAQ section of this website, before leading people to believe that you can elliminate a vocal from a mixed track.

Regards,
Red

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AE333

Date:9/4/2002 3:29:55 AM

NO!!! But I can make convincing sound effect
without setting one off. Hoping you will do
the same!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AE333

Date:9/4/2002 3:54:28 AM

Hi RED,
I did mention this stereo effect issue. As an engineer, I must
disagree with your statement "that instruments like kick drums and bass guitars are also MONO and panned dead center in the mix, therefore along with also elliminating the vocals with the reverse phase method". Most audio engineers will pan these instruments to a specific position in the mix, as with any other instrument. Drums are mixed to provide a great variety of set-ups, usually with the kick drum(in "pop" mixes) mixed with a great deal of reverb, to add power. The bass player is mixed to a variety of positions, based upon the style of the music. Resulting "drop-outs" of some pieces can be sweetened with a MIDI track, especially with the kick drum and bass. I hate to admit this as I am a bass player! Left over vocal reverb usually enhances singers in a "Music minus one" presentation.
While all of our above techniques will result in less than "professional" results, this discussion demonstrates that many of us know
a few trickss to remove a vocal line, when required to get paid. This is
why we shouldn't kick any newcomers when they ponder the same issue.
My response to these postings is only to increase dialog about such problems. I do agree that this process is not how any professional would attack the problem but, when your paycheck is hanging in the balance, we all try any possible solution to get paid, without jeopardizing our reputation.
My professional opinion would be to examine the cost abilities of your project budget to rerecord the song with studio musicians or see if an exceptable MIDI file is available. Hire an arranger to customize the file for required rewrites and have an audio engineer put this to some type of acceptable format.
If "Chicken666" needs this to make money, try these solutions. If just for fun, keep searching web for freeware that will get you by!

Good Luck

(P.S. Your response seemed informed and experienced with this issue. Please responde to this posting. AE333)

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AE333

Date:9/4/2002 4:00:15 AM

What made you feel the intention was less than
professional, the vocal removal or the .mp3
format? The "Chicken666" message wasn't specific
about the intended use. Like you, I first thought
this was for "Kareoki"(sp?) usage but I have had
many times I have tried this for movie, video and
music usage in a payed project.
Who knows?

AE333

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:9/4/2002 9:51:15 AM

AE333,
I see that you are a newcomer to these forums, and you seem to have some good experience in this subject, so the rest of us will try to excuse you from this one. Do a search on "remove vocals" on this forum, and you will soon understand why the rest of us are very impatient with this question. It get's asked in this forum almost once every week, thus also why it appears in the Sonic Foundry "FAQ" section. So people who are newcomers that ask this question tend to get slammed for this question, and rightfully so, because they are too lazy to do a "search" for their question. If you are doing the "vocal" removal for jobs, then you are a more patient person than me. I had worked in a studio, that would book sessions for me, because I knew the techniques to reduce the vocal significantly. After leaving that studio job, and opening my own studio, I made a conscious decision to never do another vocal removal session. Most of the time, I found that it turned away clients from the disappointment and the client didn't want to pay for the studio time, because they didn't get the results they had expected, eventhough we had told them "It Probably won't work" ahead of time. So these are sessions that make you 20 bucks, 10% of the time, where the other 90% of the time you're working for free. So if I get any requests for a vocal removal sessions I will refer them to you and chicken666.

Also, you may disagree with my statement that bass and kicks are panned dead center and I will have to agree with you to some extent. In SOME mixes the bass and kick are panned other places. MOST music it is not. This is because Bass instruments are "NON-DIRECTIONAL". That is because the Wavelength of these lower frequency instruments (200Hz and below) are so long that the spacing of your ears can't distinquish placement of where the sound is coming from. This is also, why when you buy a home surround sound speaker package, that they tell you you can place the sub-woofer anywhere in the room you want. These instruments DO have some higher frequency content around 3-5Khz that you can distinquish the direction, but the majority of the energy of the Bass and Kick are in the lower frequencies, which is why MOST mixes they are panned in the middle. I have yet to hear an "808 HUM" panned anywhere but the middle, and if it isn't then the engineer doesn't truly understand how a listeners ears work.

I believe, if chicken666 was asking to remove a vocal from an MP3, it was because he wanted to sample the music that laid underneath it, so that he could make his own hip-hop track to rap over. He probably downloaded the music off of Napster, downloaded a cracked version of Sound Forge from Warez, and now is trying to steal some more by sampling the music and creating loops to lay his own beats over it. Is this the type of person, we really want to give helpful advice too???? Not me!!!

Regards,
Red

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Weka

Date:9/4/2002 1:32:06 PM

AE333. It was a metaphor on the way technology drives culture.

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:9/18/2002 12:54:57 AM

RED. RED. RED. WOAH, NELLIE. REIGN YERSELF IN, MAN! Holy COW. You derived ALL OF THAT from CHICKEN666's post?! Red, old buddy....FORGET your career in engineering. There's a spot with YOUR NAME ON IT just a waitin for you on CSI! Or maybe even the "Psychic Friend's Hotline". You got major gifts, there, my friend. And you might even be right. lol. And still, I know it stung when that AE333 person called your engineering prowess into question with the whole kick drum localizing thing (you had me sold); but don't let it get your blood pressure up. You know you're right; we know you're right; (especially about needing to check the searches and faqs first; everybody knows if you don't do that, you deserve to get hazed a bit). But I worry about you when I see you gettin all a twitter over these twits. Just do what you always do in these situations. Take a deep breath; throw back a couple of (cases of) brewskies...And 'fah-getaboudit'!
;-)
sk
(Personally, I look forward to the weekly onslaught, though.)
What I think is also significant and revealing is that if anyone's noticed...there hasn't been one single response from CHICKEN[Sh*t]666 throughout this entire post. Just plain rude and ignorant, and s/he pretty much got what s/he deserved, IMA[ARROGANT]O.

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AlDavis

Date:9/18/2002 4:09:47 PM

Use Steinberg's Free Filter plug-in to do it.

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: pacoloco

Date:9/26/2002 5:51:58 PM

Maybet you should try cool edit. I used sound forge for many years and then i found a better program..... COOL EDIT PRO 2.0!

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: sk

Date:9/27/2002 8:18:04 AM

Great idea! I just KNOW the folks over there at Syntrillium's forum will LOVE to hear people asking about how to remove vocals! And WOW...you obviously know your stuff, dude. I've been following some of the threads over there at Synt's forum(s), and the senior members over there JUST LOVE the way Cool Edit Pro 2.0 handles DX plug-ins. As a matter of fact, they love it SO much, they've all gone back to using Cool Edit Pro 1.2, waiting for the patch to come out that will enable them to use Cool Edit Pro 2.0!!! So once again, thanks much for your fantastic input! And please...keep on posting; I'm sure others will agree, with posts like yours, Sound Forge can only benefit!

sk

Subject:RE: RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AE333

Date:12/16/2002 1:44:40 AM

Red,
I had seen this come up alot but, as you pointed out, as a new forum
member, I didn't know that this was a theme to some pointless messages. I
am now aware. By the way, my company actually specializes in helping clients with poor audio and limited time but this is, of course, very costly, a bit more than $20.00, depending an hourly rate of editing, documentation and mastering, as I'm sure you know. I don't wish to use this forum for an advertisement but if you are in a clutch with some poor audio and you are able to pay for editing time, by all means, contact me! As pointed out, no audio magician is going to turn poor audio into pro audio but it might be able to be "usable", depending upon production/ postproduction costs.
Your explanation of the Fletcher-Munson "Equal Loudness Curves" and
wavelength descrepancy is valid. I am happy to see that other engineers
are studying our craft at this level. While I also, typically, mix bass and kick in the middle, I usually expand solos and emphasize parts to give the
impression of space. This will require localization, no matter what approach an engineer takes to accomplish this task. I like to use Sound Forge and adjust the phase and equilization to achieve any psychoacoustic effects of space, with some reverb in a "room" environment.
This is indeed why low frequencies are reproduced by only a single speaker. This is also why, when you see a local band, the bass player is usually too loud. Since he stands so close to his amp/speaker, he is to close to hear the longer wavelengths of the lower two, even three, strings.
I'm also interested in how this applies to other, non-musical sounds,
such as explosions, gunshots, foley sound effects and other pieces of well rounded sound files.
If chicken666, or anyone, is interested in taking "sample" loops from
a prerecorded track without permission of the mechanical copyright owner's permission, they might do some research on Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer and a variety of early rap artists to see what happened to their royalties/points.
Any competant AE can prove copyright infringment of his/her work.

In Agreement, lets discuss better stuff!

AE333

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: AE333

Date:12/16/2002 1:52:22 AM

Hello sk,
If you got the impression I was questioning Red's engineering skills, allow me to reply not. I found his reply well thought out and quite true. As a newbie, I just wanted to expand a voice but, as pointed out, some useless persuits should be abandoned. We could use this space for better questions about sound design, surround processes and the newest mics!

Got in the middle!

AE333

Subject:RE: How do I cut vocals?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/16/2002 10:37:38 AM

"Your explanation of the Fletcher-Munson "Equal Loudness Curves" and
wavelength descrepancy is valid"

Wow, I thought this thread was dead!!! I just wanted to point something out to you. I never referred to the "Fletcher-Munson Equal Loudness Curves" in this post, so I hope you weren't trying to throw these names in there to show how intelligent you are. Fletcher-Munson is a hearing limitation, but I was really referring to another hearing limitation referred to as "Bass Directionality". They are 2 different things. Bass directionality is a limitation because your head is only 7 inches thick and the wavelength of a 60Hz signal is 18.8 ft long, therefore the difference in amplitude between your ears of a long wavelength like this is nearly unrecognizable, therefore your ears can't perceive where the sound is coming from because the same frequency and same amplitude is heard in both ears. The only way to over come this is to get a head that is nearly 5 feet wide, where I imagine you wouldn't be doing much work in sound engineering, but would have a lot of jobs available in "ALIEN".

Regards,
Red

Subject:Remove Vocal 31

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/16/2004 7:55:43 PM

<Bump> :-)~