Subject:4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Posted by: victors

Date:9/24/2002 1:00:25 PM

Not that it's my job to qa your codebase but I've been keeping tabs on all the problems I've had with 4.0a in the last 24 hours. Actually, there were too many to keep track of but here are some of the highlights (there seems to be traction on the Fruity synch issues so I don't even mention any of those):

Record (and keep) ~5 takes of audio, ~1min each, on 6th take (during recording), CPU goes to 100% usage, effectively freezing machine forcing reboot.

Solo Fruity Loops bus, Render to New Track, ACID vanishes

Open Acid 4 project with 25 tracks, 3 VSTi, FX,
select "Edit in Sound Forge" on a track,
go back to close Acid: Crash on exiting in USER (stack trace avail)

Open Acid 3 project with 30 tracks and fx: crackle and pop (to the
point of uselessness) when loaded into 4.0 (better in 4.0a,
but still unacceptable)

Midi input to softsynth stops after random user actions
(this happened many, many times, sometimes when changing bank
in vsti, moving events around, saving project),
workaround: close/reopen project

FL bus doesn't mute when audio track solo'd


There are many UI glitches that I just didn't even bother to record,
here are two:

UI: '+' zoom doesn't work when zoomed all the way out

UI: 'V' toggles volume envolope for track ABOVE currently selected track


There are very annoying bugs/design flaws that are overshaddowed by
the data-loss work-stoppage bugs above, like:

Enable Realtime and Input Device settings are not remembered with project

Midi input to FL on second track (workaround: create an empty first track)

Sound buffers still have residule sound after hitting 'stop',
not emptied of previous sounds until play starts next time


There are too many bad design decisions that are obviously subjective so I won't waste anyones time with that.

I've got two daws, both have xp pro, both m-audio, one pIII, one amd, both with 1gig of ram, etc. etc. I use Fruity, Waves FX, and bismark. Acid 3.0g running beautifully on both machines without a problem.

Just so I am as explicit as I can be: I would have preferred to wait three months for a product that was less ambitious on features and at least as solid (and tested) as ACID 2.0. I, for one, don't appreciate paying for the privelage of beta testing anyone's product. I had 12 years with 12tone/cakewalk/sonar for that -- you guys were supposed to be my relief from that.

VS

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/24/2002 1:19:49 PM

Did you update your M-audio soundcard to the latest beta for the fix in acid? Send some of this info to those guys as well so that they'll have an even better view of the problem. Hang in there. Later.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: victors

Date:9/24/2002 3:37:00 PM

[Did you update your M-audio soundcard to the latest beta for the fix in acid?]

you bet.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:9/24/2002 3:48:34 PM

Did you make sure you uninstalled the previous driver for the soundcard? M-Audio specifically alerts users to use the "DeltaUninstaller.exe" program before attempting to install the latest (or beta) drivers.

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: victors

Date:9/24/2002 3:55:35 PM

[Did you make sure you uninstalled the previous driver]

Yup. (They also have instructions for how to do that manually and I double checked against that.) btw, only some of the bugs seem audio related; there's plenty of problems with midi, ui (a crash in user.exe), unhandled exceptions, etc. and every other audio app and plug-in (including sound forge) work just fine.

Naw, it's just bugs.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:9/24/2002 4:45:38 PM

Never rule out anything. These are PC's.

I have both an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and an M-Audio USB Duo. Both work just fine with ACID Pro 4.0. (The Audiophile uses the beta Delta ASIO drivers, of course.)

(I must have the magic touch. Or something.)

What kind of video card do you have?

Iacobus

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/24/2002 6:30:41 PM

Dude did you call sofo support line? 1(608)204-7704[free for 60days after purchasing a sofo app] Might as well utilize all your chances at letting sofo know about all the problems you are having. Later.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: AlDavis

Date:9/24/2002 8:06:52 PM

If I were you, I would unistall 4.0 and reinstall 3.0. I know it is money wasted but hey....I have been ripped-off many times with buggy software: Cubase was one of them. It is not worth the time to play around with buggy software. You will see. It's just not worth it! Some people do fight back though and prevail, but I just give up. Buggy software wins over me.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: victors

Date:9/24/2002 11:48:07 PM

[I have been ripped-off many times with buggy software: Cubase was one of them.]

Yea, Cubase and Cakewalk both are like that... I used to cling to acid because it was different, that was the point: less filling AND tastes great. Now they are playing with big boys and ending up too much like 'em.

If it keeps crashing/freezing then of course, I'll uninstall 4.0a...

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:9/25/2002 1:09:57 PM

ALDavis and Victors,

Again - probably NOT the place to discuss this - but what the hell...I have been struggling so much with Acid 4.0a to get something/anything done that I have finally came to this conclusion - If I had the choice to work with MIDI/VSTi/etc within a loop based app or work with loops within a proven MIDI/VSTi app...I will choose the latter anyday.

It looks as though in the quest to add new functionality to our beloved Acid (which was just fine and solid as of 3.0g - I have gone back to 3.0 and I am staying there) SF has elevated this app into a realm of endless bugs, crappy performance, unknown crashes etc...which of course leads to a feeling of utter frustration from a users perspective when trying to get any work done. I just can't invest anymore time changing drivers (I am an M-Audio user) and mucking around to see if Acid 4.0a is going to amount to anything.

And back to my choice in the first paragraph, I discovered the PhatMatikPro VSTi from Bitshift to work with any loop within Cubase SX. Having made this radical discovery and the way I use loops in my work, there is simply no need for Acid anymore...

I have rock solid MIDI, superb audio recording flexibility, the defacto standard environment for any VSTi, Rewire support (Hey Maruuk!) and now thanks to the PhatMatikPro, total control in pitch, timing and tempo lock for any loop I want to bring into the picture. Plus I can mess these loops up any way I want to create sounds that Acid could only dream of, and still stay in tempo.

And no bugs either...rock solid performance day in and day out.

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: jam

Date:9/25/2002 2:36:31 PM

big problems here since I run 4.0a. When using version 4.0, I was an happy M-Audio customer, no problems. but now, wowwww, if only I press play, then stop, acid CRASHES.
I haven't "fixed" the M-audio driver with the beta release because it was OK before, with acid 4.0. Maybe it's time...

jam

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/25/2002 5:36:18 PM

And no bugs either...rock solid performance day in and day out.---All right there tough guy why don't you try doing all this cool stuff by loading in Cubase 5.0. Then I want you to remember how loooooong it took to get to 5.1 then to SX[they didn't even fix all the bugs still in 5.1!!!What a ripoff!!!]. The jump acid 4.0 took in reaching "A" worked great for my system and others...that only took a month or so! Compare that to cubase's rate of updates/stability per user and your analogy is moot. I could have gone that route and just done the same thing with my copy of Sonar...Its just not the same thing. My gut feeling is that we won't have to wait as long as "ACID Pro 4.1" to get what we paid for[no pun intended ;)].

I'm glad your loving your workflow dude. But you sound as if even if 4.0 was "rock solid" you'd still be going the same route. Comparing acid to cubase/sonar is unfair.Period. How about I turn around and boast how much Cubase SX sucks compared to my copy of Sonar 2.0XL[soon 2.1]. I have rewire and I have ACID LOOPING BUILT IN! Not some cheesy vsti "add-on" acid wannabe that will probably crap out on you when the next bug fix/update comes out.Plus better support for the UA card[after of course they release DX plugins but plugin delay compensation is not limited as in SX :)] Can you see how silly this all is? And its even more retarded that we had to have it in a "sofo acid forum". Can you imagine how ripped apart I'd be if I said that stuff in cubase.net?

To me 4.0 bugs is just a bump in the road...Enjoy your stability while it lasts dude. Later.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:9/25/2002 6:55:50 PM

SHTUNOT,

I have usually liked your help and advice in the past and I listen to what you have to say but whoa - if you want a bug ridden piece of crap on your desktop - knock yourself out pal. These forums are open to all kinds of commentary from everyone. If ya don't like it, then move on.

RE: "I'm glad your loving your workflow dude. But you sound as if even if 4.0 was "rock solid" you'd still be going the same route. Comparing acid to cubase/sonar is unfair.Period."

This statement is totally unfair - It doesn't take a freakin' brain surgeon to see that Acid 4.0a needs some big help. I love SF products and will continue to support them. I gave Acid 4.0 what I feel is a decent shot but I will not beta test this app or screw anymore with my production environment until an update finally comes out that is in some way stable. And to answer your incorrect assumption - If Acid 4.0a worked as advertised, I would be all over it. But it doesn't.

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/25/2002 7:45:25 PM

Also any investor in a software app, and we are all investors every time we buy into a rev, must be mindful of the economic realities of what they're buying into. Steinberg Media Technologies AG turns over 43 million DM annually, and they're solid as a rock. Twelve Tone Systems, Inc., makers of Sonar, has a huge backing loan from the Imperial Bank and is expanding like crazy.

SOFO traded at .82 today, down from $64.

Programmers leave a sinking ship in droves, resources wear thin, tempers wear thin, and products wear thin. A completely f'd product like 4.0 does not come out of thin air. Everything has a reason, and a logical explanation.

And a company with great apps like AP 3.0, Sound Forge and Vegas can get into trouble for reasons completely tangential to product quality. A very large, bad investment that had to be fully written off, for instance.

Employees of SOFO that come in here are supposed to get a lot of their compensation in stock vestment. That's their future. Microsoft works the same way. When it's all downhill, a lot of things go South.

So us investors have to protect ourselves, but it's also a human story, these are men and women with families and bills to pay, it's a very stressful time. These people, those that are still left, gave us the single most important music app since Hybrid Arts and Passport brought graphic midi editing to the fore. That counts for something in a huge user community of mostly sincere, sharing individuals.

So it is a tough time for both sides, customer and vendor. I say give these guys the benefit of the doubt, and a piece of your wallet. If SOFO can get back on its feet with our help, the sky's the limit. It's up to us--the little investors who at $99 a pop are buying a piece of future real estate for the coolest app since sliced beats.

If we walk away now, I guarantee you will miss it when it's gone. Who else would let you paint a symphony?

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: victors

Date:9/25/2002 8:03:00 PM

Maruuk, I have to say I totally agree with analysis -- if not your conclusion.

Nobody put a gun to SoFo's head and said they had to stoop to cubase/12tone tacticts of early release just to compete. There are many right here on this forum (myself included) that would have gladly beta tested this product and pointed out glaring bugs in m-audio and fruity compat *before* shipping.

Anybody with an ounce of experience in software knows that interactive compatibility between 3rd party software vendors doesn't happen because one side unilaterally followed the spec. Stability in this case only comes from extensive, wide area testing. They seem (and I'm making tons of assumptions here) to have made a calculation that good will garnered with previous solid releases would get them over the cash hump until more stable releases arrive.

As far as I'm concerned, Sofo's #1 competitive advantage (even at a fraction of the feature set) was their fantastic grasp of usability and product/release stability. If they lose that edge then what is the point of supporting the way they *used* to do business? I may be up a tree, but I think it's our duty as loyal (romantically inclined) devotees of this software company to speak up when bad decisions have been made. As easy as I've made it for these guys to hate me via my posts on this forum I hope that point doesn't get lost.

VS

ps-pardon my attrocious spelling.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/25/2002 8:24:10 PM

VS--Sure it's bad now, but if we don't stand together to fight that long drink of evil with the initials BK comin' in on the noon train, SoFo will be a ghost town. And we'll know where all the apps are buried. Reboot Hill.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/25/2002 8:41:45 PM

CuzinB...no offense intended dude just keeping things in perspective thats all. I've already admitted that 4.0a was great for my system...not yet perfect. But going back to your post it reads like a cubase SX infomercial..."I have rock solid MIDI, superb audio recording flexibility, the defacto standard environment for any VSTi, Rewire support (Hey Maruuk!) and now thanks to the PhatMatikPro, total control in pitch, timing and tempo lock for any loop I want to bring into the picture". [You deserved much more just from mentioning Maruuk in your rant] Sorry if its HELL on yours still.

You did say...probably NOT the place to discuss this - but what the hell...who's the one complaining again? ;)

My point in bringing up cubase 5.0 is that ALL software apps have probs from time to time. I personally don't think that this will be the case much longer for any of us. But when I hear someone mention cubase like that it freakin' drives me nuts!!!

If you do not wish to help out in the "bug hunt" thats great I don't at all blame you. Getting your clients projects out ofcourse takes a higher priority. I totally understand the need for you to vent dude. I felt the same way. Its just that I went back to using 3.0g without righting 4 paragraghs on how I could just use Sonar blah blah blah...

It took over a year for cubase to get to 5.1...It took over a month to get 4.0a to help me and others...I'm sure the rest is soon to follow. Though the more people contact support with their problems like yourself the sooner we can all be enjoying 4.0 for how cool it is.

Been behaving yourself Maruuk?

Again CuzinB...just a keeping things in perspective. Later.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/25/2002 8:59:32 PM

Again...Sofo...Let users who want to help in beta testing do so like before. I helped with Vegas 3 and Soundforge 6 and was dissapointed in not helping out with acid 4. I had a bad feeling when they stated that there wasn't going to be a public beta...

Personally I don't believe a word coming from maruuks post on sofo day trading. Any other opinions on sofo shares?

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:9/25/2002 9:04:00 PM

SHTUNOT,

No offense taken. I am just frustrated and yes - ranting. This is just an annoying time to be a SF Acid fan. I hope they find their way with this thing but at what cost? I mean, folks that used to rally around 3.0g are just plain pissed. Me included. It's tough watching an app (and a company) fail into a void...scratching for a way back. And then on October 1, they are going to jack this thing up to 499.99USD...what the hell are they thinking? I mean...they are having a tough time giving it away at 99 bucks.

Cheers,

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: victors

Date:9/25/2002 9:13:59 PM

In 3/2000 they closed at $124.12 (pre-split adjusted). Today they closed at 0.84

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/25/2002 9:27:36 PM

what the hell are they thinking?---I'm sure this is the universal thought of every sofo r&d coder daily. The smart move would be to extend the offer to the end of NOVEMBER so that 4.0b+c can turn some heads and keep their customers locked in. Later.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/25/2002 10:18:10 PM

Shut--You're right on, they're going to have to extend the deal at this point. Imagine the poor sap paying $500 on 10/1.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: waynegee

Date:9/26/2002 12:35:39 AM

"but if we don't stand together to fight that long drink of evil with the initials BK comin' in on the noon train"...huh? who's BK?...oh, noo...Burger King is making music software?!??! BroilerPro? WhopperSX? Hee.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/26/2002 2:00:20 AM

Yeah, that's it. Burger King is coming to buy out SOFO. They want to implement a new Bacon Bugwich $99 Combo.

BK refers to a certain non-desirable financial status.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: victors

Date:9/26/2002 2:08:11 AM

[BK refers to a certain non-desirable financial status.]

I knew that.

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: waynegee

Date:9/26/2002 8:12:34 AM

I still don't get it. Buns-up Kneeling?

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: inspector

Date:9/26/2002 8:17:29 AM

Will Noise Reduction 2.0 remove dynamo hum?

FZ fan?

Subject:RE: 4.0a bugs, bugs, bugs

Reply by: waynegee

Date:9/26/2002 2:13:44 PM

you betcha!