Subject:Rewire - My experiences and why i do not want it in Acid

Posted by: skysurfer

Date:9/17/2002 3:43:20 AM

Rewire is a nice piece of technology, when it works.
It took a long way since Propellerheads implemented it for the first time in Rebirth to make it the now complete working Rewire2 interface.
Propellerheads developments were always close to Steinberg´s technologies, that´s why Cubase became very fast the best working Rewire capable host around. Cubase was also the first host to integrate Rewire from the start. Nowadays Cubase SX works like a dream with Reason, Ableton Live etc.

Rewire2 is NOT easily implemented in any host. The best example for this is Logic Audio that always had and still has problems with Rewire2 and still doesnt work with it at 100%.
(Imagine this, isnt it strange for a company with all the development power like Emagic ?)

Rewire is great to help out when an application is missing some important features that another can give.
Best example for this is Reason wich has no DX, no VSTi, no VST etc. that you cannot use "reason-ably" without Rewire or Ableton Live that has NO MIDI, NO VSTi etc. and is pure audio.

But you always need to START and RELY on at least TWO !!! applications. You always need to SAVE and BACKUP everything for at least TWO applications. Means at least DOUBLE EXPENDITURE for everything !!

WHY i dont want it in Acid ? For the above mentioned "reason" and because Acid 4 is not comparable to Reason, Ableton Live or Rebirth etc.
Acid DOESNT NEED it.
Acid has all the missing (AND LOTS MORE) features of all these applications, even if its still at a beta stadium. And imagine what still is up to come, Acid 4 is only at the beginning and is expandable ! (OPT)

So why bother SOFO with an unnecessary and unpleasant feature ?
Give SOFO the chance to bring up some updates and fixes and Acid will be a stable, consistent and coherent stand-alone application.

The concept of Acid is not to integrate killer midi-sequencing like some specialized Midi hosts offer, but you still can use any of these applications to render files that you can import into Acid further on.
The same way you can export your Acid files to treat them further on in any other specialized audio application like SoundForge for example.

I tested out almost every possible Audio-Midi combination (rewired or not) on the market and came to the following conclusion :

The "finished" Acid 4 will give you an uncomparable workflow, an easyness that delivers spontaneous creativity like, in my opinion no other audio program on the market can give you.

Subject:RE: Rewire - My experiences and why i do not want it in Acid

Reply by: PHATDRUMS

Date:9/17/2002 4:48:50 AM

mmmmmmmmm do visit the moonies often then?

Subject:RE: Rewire - My experiences and why i do not want it in Acid

Reply by: algorhythm

Date:9/17/2002 6:10:59 AM

"Acid has all the missing (AND LOTS MORE) features of all these applications" - well, no it doesn't. It doesn't support VST FX, it can't do live resampling, and it is not designed for live performance. Ableton live does these things, and does them well. Acid is the perfect COMPLIMENT not replacement for Live and vice-versa. Hence the tremendous calling for Rewire support. I too am one of these people. If you don't like Rewire, DON'T USE IT. But lots of us have legitimate reasons ;) for wanting this feature.

Subject:RE: Rewire - My experiences and why i do not want it in Acid

Reply by: billybk

Date:9/17/2002 7:03:30 AM

Being an avid SONAR 2 and now a ACID 4 user, I would like to have Rewire support.
Imagine being able to run ACID 4 inside SONAR 2, which already has excellent Rewire 2.0 support(according to one of the lead developers @ Propellerhead, SONAR 2.0 has one, if not the best Rewire 2.0 implementations in the business). Granted, SONAR has a very good ACID style looping feature already, but we all now that ACID is the best and easiest to use loop arranging software on the planet. Think of the possibilities!

Billy Buck

Subject:uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: Jacose

Date:9/17/2002 7:37:23 AM

all im gonna say is ... no one even knows if SOnic foundry is gonna DO this yet..
I think its a really good idea, and if you dont want it, dont use it, you'll have that option!

(TO SOFO: MAKE SURE YOU WAIT UNTIL ACID IS STABLE!!!!)

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/17/2002 12:43:13 PM

I agree totally on having rewire added to acid. But with the 4.0 launch being so bad I can't imagine it being done "RIGHT"! Thats the whole problem. Sure they can rush out a 4.5 or whatever but then they'll be taking resources away from their flagship "VEGAS"[plus all the bug fixes for that as well]. It all comes down to how much is left in the acid 4 R&D pot to get it done. I would rather wait till acid 5 with it done correctly[like in sonar 2.0] then get a half baked version like the vsti implementation we got in 4.0. All good things come to those who wait. Later.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/17/2002 12:57:20 PM

Though I would like to add that skysurfer is on point with his last post. AP 4.0 without rewire still rules. When the bug fixes come out I'll totally forget about any shortcomings that have been bitched about as of recent and get back to being creative using acid. Later.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/17/2002 1:12:26 PM

Yeah, look, we got what we got right now and the priority is making that work. That's a long uphill climb just by itself considering the company's on the ropes and doesn't have a lot of resources to throw at the problem like they could in the past.

They'll get us ReWired soon enough, it's an industry-wide standard like midi now, it's not reversable. Of course, that's assuming there IS a "they" a month from now. Life is full of uncertainties, and music pubs trading in the pinks are more full than others.

BTW, all you naysayers about ReWire--if you don't need it it'll be totally invisible to you, it won't get in your way, it won't affect the GUI, performance, nada. It just lets Acid be Acid.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: PHATDRUMS

Date:9/18/2002 5:35:29 PM

mr shtunot what makes u think that five will will be much better than 4 acid 3 is much les stable than 2 and 4 less than 3
the mid1 implementation in v3 was embarassing from a pro point of view and its really not very pro in v4 its ten years behind
steinberg digital performer and emagic
vst implementation is as poor in v4 as midi was in v3 so if sofo make it that far version six should just achieieve 1992 midi
and 1999 vst i s standards by then by which time the competition will be way off in the distance
if your not going to add midi to a pro standard then dont add it at all
and if your only going to have vst is half way integrated dont bother wait till your programmers are capable otherwise
the effect you give is one of incompetance
the ideas in this program mean it has the potential to be great yet rather than get it right out comes yet another half finished product
and there are people on these forums who take second best as the rule and you know who are
(well itworks on my system etc blah blah blah)
and maruuk im not really that interested in rewire but you are so right its
transparent if you dont want it dont use it s a glaring ommission of a free code and i know many people who use both acid and reason etc who would have gladly welcomed it but now i fear the many problems need to be addressed

sorry to babble on

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/18/2002 6:54:31 PM

Mr PHATDRUMS... I guess to start off I'd like to keep a "glass is half full" attitude toward any situation whenever possible, sorry. But what you deem acids midi as "embarassing from a pro point of view and its really not very pro in v4 its ten years behind
steinberg digital performer and emagic" is true only in part. As far back as I can remember reading on these forums many users didn't want FULL blown midi. "A simple piano roll" was asked over and over and guess what, you got it.[be carefull what you wish for]
Midi is NOT sofo strong point THATS why OPT is sooooooooo important to acids midi future. A third party developer who's STRENGTHS are midi can create a OPT plugin to be used in any OPT compatible host:ie Acid 4.0 AND Sonar 2.0!!!! Isn't it funny that a company with such a killer midi implementation it chose to support it as well? Why? Because it leaves the host app company "focused" on keeping their app riddled with the least amount of code.[correct me if I'm wrong] Quicker bugs fixes anyone?[in theory ;)] More R&D towards other areas of the app instead of worrying about adding "Quantization" or what have you.
Plus I'm sure the incentive to develop a OPT midi plugin was doubled[or more] when they had learned that not only Sonar but ACID adopted it as well. You want killer midi then there ya go. I for one think that it was a smart move on sofo part. Its just the waiting that hurts.

With OPT sofo should be able to put resources to "catch up" on the Vsti standard that they unfortunately didn't finish in time for the release. Hell maybe they're working on it as we speak for this release to save face in that way. I remember hearing a bit back that they fixed the sync between acid and fruity loops! I wonder what else is in store for this fix.

---vst implementation is as poor in v4 as midi was in v3---Ya and I wanted acid 4 to be a multitracking app like "Vegas" so neither of us got what we wanted!!! :(

---it s a glaring ommission of a free code----Free yes...Easily implemented? Common didn't you read the above posts? There was a bigger chance of rewire SUCKING in this release than it being a savior to us. It works but NO its not perfect!

BTW...About the point of Maruuk being right? Dude where have you been? No offense but many others like myself asked for rewire as well but we "ALL" spoke LOUDER about 5.1,midi[OPT],DX automation,etc...It was only untill 4.0 was released with all the bugs that he jumped on sofo tits about how dumb they were when he was basically speaking about us ALL! In theory rewiring acid to sonar/cubase/etc...is a great idea but from discussing that idea with others the bottom line that I've gathered was anybody who would want to benefit from that approach should better get the bucks up to buying a SUPER dual processing computer to pull it off well[If even that]. Would any of you fork over $3000 to be able to do this?[Or build it yourself for less+ add a universal audio card ;)] How many others would do the same?

I remember the wish list very well...Maruuk was more concerned about acid keeping up with all the cakewalk features and about making acid "NOT A TOY"[or else they'll all lose their jobs!!!].HMMMM...Where have we heard that as of recent? ;) He asked for a ton of crap as well as feeding us loads of "sofo will surprise us all with" speaches. Never was it ever uttered to sofo to just add "REWIRE" so acid would stop being a toy and "all this "Let acid be acid" BS! If you don't believe me then just click on his name and scroll back and reread the posts around the time of the wishlists...Unless he's deleted them all. I can't believe the way he flipped from "sofo add all this" to "Let acid be acid".

Anyway if this app is not for you then just do what I did and buy another app to cover your ass. I did. Sonar 2.0XL. If ever I can't get something done in sofo products I know where to go that will. People also have Cubase SX which I've heard good things about too.

Next time I hope people will be more specific with their wishes and make it perfectly clear how a given feature will benefit them as well as others.[ie:rewiring acid to sonar,etc...]

This release when bug free will do what I need it to do and thats "LETTING ACID BE ACID". Later.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: groovewerx

Date:9/18/2002 7:52:37 PM

rewire fix:

if you have rebirth or any older than rewire2 apps, simply replace the new rewire.dll with the old.

there is also a dos rewire fix included in reason.

you have to tune your pc as you would a car if you want to use serious equipment.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/18/2002 8:42:47 PM

Shut--Totally wrong as always. Myself and a number of posters have been calling for ReWire for a very long time. SOFO chose to ignore us. If SOFO had been able to add pro features effectively with intelligent and intuitive interface design that did not impact the app as a whole, great. But they panicked and screwed the pooch bigtime. It's caused a general outrage anmong the user community, and with good reason. It's literally half-baked. The midi isn't even completed yet--no quantize on input is like shipping a car without headlights. "It runs fine all day."

It's clear that cleaning this mess up will take a long time, and with their dwindling resources (which created the problem in the first place), the prognosis is in doubt.

"Let Acid be Acid" is literally a plea to stop the damage now. Go back to 3.0 and optimize that. Pull all this dysfunctional crap out of our beloved 3.0. SOFO has proven they can't deliver the goods on features. So they should leave it to others who do have the resources to make midi, synths, samplers etc work and simply ReWire us into the full-functioning non-crashing world of mega-features.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: waynegee

Date:9/18/2002 9:10:58 PM

Actually, SONAR does NOT have "quantize on recording input", either according to the product manager at Cakewalk...they are working on it for the next service pack. I can live without Rewire in ACID but those who say "it don't work", "it ain't all that" or "they just don't need it" need to fool with it a bit more...I'm no Rewire expert but it's pretty frickin' cool, useful as all get out and on my new system, I can run SONAR/Reason with Sound Forge and Beat Creator open and my PC not get above 12% CPU usage. If ya don't need it, don't use it...just like Vegas...I got all the video crap turned off and you never even notice that it's there or not.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/18/2002 9:45:53 PM

LOL!!! Now that was a really dumb response to all my "facts" on acid 4. Maruuk do you even understand OPT yet or did you skip over that whole paragraph? OPT will ensure the lowest amount of cpu usage as well as keeping things a solid as "rewire" would. OPT to me is like rewire but for midi,same concept.

I feel that sofo should list the possible developers of a OPT midi plugin so we could all email them and let them see how much of a profit is in store for them if they "do it right".[Can you imagine an OPT plugin to rival Cubase or even logic midi functions? :)]

Please explain yourself more clearly on what is halfbaked in acid?

Personally the only problems I'm having are with the ASIO drivers for my ECHO Layla 20bit card. DX Automation=KICKA$$...Buss tracks rule...Loop cloning works great...What should I be so pissed about???? For a $99 dollar upgrade why all this drama? Why would anybody go back to using 3.0 after the bugs get worked out in 4.0A? HMMMM? They won't!

Acid 4.0 is in NO WAY a half baked app. Do you even own a copy? Tried the demo? Or are you just going on word of mouth?[mainly your own!]

Give me a stable running 4.0A please. And a "well implemented" rewire in acid pro 5 that will rival that of sonar or cubase. Later.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: groovewerx

Date:9/18/2002 10:00:20 PM

acid will never rival cubase and anyone that has expirience with cubase knows this. you cannot compare apples to oranges.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: Jacose

Date:9/18/2002 11:30:23 PM

Please explain yourself more clearly on what is halfbaked in acid?

no offense, but when A release of a software product shuts down out of nowhere, experiences skipping like a Cd player attached to rosanne barr's belt during aerobics, many vstis dont work right, and the MIDI implementation is shaky, and the overall program is less stable than the average BETA, I would call that half baked.

However,

I do not wish sofo pull stuff OUT of Acid 4, I just wish they would optomize and debug, now that we have been paid betatesters.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:9/18/2002 11:38:27 PM

Well, of course you'll get your wish, they won't change it now. But 4.0a is gonna be one major patch job. It looks like they've got another month just tabulating the major replicable bugs.

Subject:RE: uh oh..wait until maruuk gets here....

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:9/20/2002 12:01:37 AM

groovewerx...I was talking about the midi implementation...thats it. Apples to Apples. In theory it can be done. What we see now with this release of 4.0 is sofo "best attempt" at midi. Only time will tell if a plugin developer will rise to the task of creating a awesome OPT midi plugin.[And yes I've owned and used cubase so I do know what I'm talking about]

Don't forget that cubase and cakewalk had a huge head start with midi implementation in their apps,many times revised and updated. This isn't that bad for a initial attempt from sofo.[It will only get better...and so on...]

Jacose... The bugs/instability I thought were a "given" in that arguement. But the implementation of 5.1,dx automation,Buss tracks,etc...I feel lives up to my expectations,and when all the dust settles from this bug filled release I'll feel that I was lucky to only pay $99 for it. Those "features" I DO NOT feel are at all half baked. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough with my point. But in terms of VSTi I can't argue at all because I do all that work in Sonar already so I personally don't care. Though IMHO what 4.0 has in vsti implementation more than suites my needs. And when I purchase a Vsti softsynth then I can honestly see more of my work being done in acid and only the "extremes" done in Sonar. All my stuff is DXI right now.

Again...my problems/crashes mainly revolve around using the ASIO/WDM drivers. When I switch back to the other "windows classic" drivers its ALOT better.

Have a goodnight. Later.