Subject:Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Posted by: Cowboy

Date:9/4/2002 12:09:46 PM

I have tweaked my system and Acid 4 to where I can now play back songs without much (or any) dropouts or weird noises using ASIO at 512 samples (11ms latency) with my Echo Gina/20 card.

I also know that I can close down Acid 4, and start up any of my VSTi instruments (B4, Pro 52, FM7) and play them just fine by themselves.. again using the Echo Gina/20.

In fact, that's how I used VSTi instruments in Acid 3: With the help of a SoundBlaster Live! card in the same machine, I was able to play the VSIi live (with my MIDI controller) out through the Echo Gina/20 using ASIO at very low latency (11ms), which went out to my Mackie mixer, and came back in through the SoundBlaster to be recorded by Acid.

Basically:

MIDI-controlled VSTi instrument (ASIO) -> Echo Gina/20 Out -> SB Live! In -> Acid 3.0

This works in Acid 4.0 as well.. but is not really an ideal way to record these fabulous VSTi instruments. The ideal way would be to do what Acid 4 does.. except that here's the problem:

Playback is fine.. but when I record, the VSTi lags a LOT. The playback seems fine, but there is a definite (far higher than 11ms) latency there, and it's totally unplayable. (I'm just using the Echo Gina/20 with ASIO @ 512 samples/11ms here)

If I stop recording, the VSTi latency just monitoring is fine. Feels pretty good. But while recording it's unusable.

And keep in mind that I *can* run the VSTi instrumentss as standalone using ASIO while recording thru the SB Live! simultaneously, without latency, in the exact same project that lags while using the VSTi internally in Acid.

VSTi support is basically *the* reason that I bought Acid 4, because I want to track it all internally, using just one sound card, and have it all be MIDI that can be edited later on.

Is this an issue that is being addressed?

- Cowboy

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: SonyIMC

Date:9/4/2002 3:07:27 PM

Hi we have not run into this problem in-house. I'd like to see if I can re-produce it but I have a question: Do you have the SBLive and Gina on the same system?

Thanks

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: Cowboy

Date:9/4/2002 4:20:02 PM

Yep, same system.

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: Cowboy

Date:9/5/2002 10:18:03 AM

So.. do you have any idea why is it lagging?

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: SonyIMC

Date:9/5/2002 4:28:01 PM

Cowboy, we tested a machine with a SBlive and a Gina20 and did not have any latency issues when recording VSTI's. So you have a real headscracher for us here.

A couple of suggestions:
Some users have been having luck with 3rd party ASIO drivers for the SBLive. You might want to try and see if you get better results monitoring via the the SBlive as well as using it for the MIDI port.
You can find the driver here: http://kxproject.spb.ru/intro.php

Also, wat are the other specs on your system (particularly chipset) since there have been issues known with VIA based systems but this was way back. Post your system specs here and well see if we can figur it out.

Regards,
Ivan Calderon
Vegas SQA

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: Cowboy

Date:9/5/2002 9:10:00 PM

When I am experiencing this latency, I am not using the SB Live! in any way (although it is still installed in that system).

I am using my Echo Gina/20 ASIO for audio, and a Midiman Midisport 2x2 USB adapter for MIDI.

Echo Gina/20, WDM 6.04 drivers
USB Midiman Midisport 2x2, 4.1.14 drivers
SB Live!, 5.1.2535 drivers

PIII 1GHz CPU
ASUS P3V4X Motherboard
2x512mb (1gb) Mushkin PC133 SDRAM

NVidia Geforce2 MX AGP
Adaptec 295UW Pro SCSI adapter PCI
Netgear FA312 10/100 NIC PCI
Pyro 1394 Firewire PCI

Windows XP Professional
VIA 4in1 4.42(a)p2 drivers

I will try to install and use the SB Live! ASIO drivers, and see if the problem still exists just using that card vs. the Gina. I don't have any MIDI adapter for the SB Live! however, so I can't test MIDI through that.

I would like to reiterate that I can run any of these VSTi instruments standalone through the Gina/20 (with ASIO) while playing back or recording a song in Acid 3 or 4 through the SB Live!, without any additional latency.

- Cowboy

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: Cowboy

Date:9/5/2002 10:06:19 PM

I installed the latest SB Live! ASIO drivers, and the exact same thing happens. I can play the VSTi instruments standalone using ASIO in either card now, and route that output into the input of the other card, which records it just fine as audio in Acid.

BUT.. if I try to use either card as an "all-in-one" solution to playback an Acid 4 project while monitoring/recording VSTi as an instrument so that I can record it as MIDI... the VSTi monitoring lags badly!

Sigh

- Cowboy

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: pwppch

Date:9/5/2002 10:10:45 PM

I have been trying to reproduce this behavior using a Echo Layla 20 and MIDIMan 2X2 with no success. (Can't reproduce this with any audio card or MIDI port actually.)

What I am thinking (guessing) might be causing some delay is the thruing of the data to the softsynths during record. It is possible that somekind of bottleneck is occuring between thruing and recording of the actual MIDI data. There is s different set of things happening when we are just thruing MIDI input vs actually recording it.

Are you willing to try a little trouble shooting for me?

First thing to try. Do you have an alternative MIDI input device. If you have the MIDI cable for you SBLive you could try this vs the MIDIMan 2X2.


Second test: Use an external MIDI synth to record MIDI against.

In either case, what I would like to see is whether there is a buffer latency going on or a MIDI thru delay.

Set up:
- Enable either the MIDI out connect to the external synth or enable the SBLive EMU synth A.
- Enable your MIDIMan input port and thru it to the 'external' synth you enabled above.

When you go to record, you should select the external synth as your thru device.

When you record this way, is there a latency in response time? There should be none, since ASIO and your audio card are taken out of the loop.

If you could try this, it might help me to narrow down where the latency is occuring - MIDI thru or audio buffering.

Thanks,
Peter

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: Cowboy

Date:9/7/2002 2:36:49 PM

I don't have another way to connect MIDI devices to my computer, and I don't have any external MIDI tone generators. (I only have the one XP-30 keyboard that I use as a controller)

I also don't understand how to enable your "Second test" .. it seems very confusing to me, as I'm not a MIDI expert.

Can you tell me EXACTLY how to test this? I really want to work out these problems so I can become productive with Acid 4.

Thanks!

- Cowboy

Subject:RE: Acid 4: ASIO Playback vs Recording - and VSTi

Reply by: Cowboy

Date:9/13/2002 3:34:13 PM

So.. can you help me out here, SOFO?

BTW, I have since bought a new computer, I now have:

P4 2.4b GHz (533MHz bus) CPU
Intel 845e chipset motherboard (Gigabyte GA-8IEXP)
2x512mb (1gb) PC2100 Mushkin DDR SDRAM

Echo Gina/20 PCI Soundcard (primary, ASIO)
SB Live! Value PCI Soundcard (secondary)
Midiman Midisport 2x2 USB MIDI

NVidia Geforce 3 AGP Video card
Adaptec AHA2940UW-Pro PCI SCSI controller

..and I'm still having the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS.

Using the Gina w/ ASIO in stand-alone mode, the Native Instruments VSTi's I own run at 128 samples (3ms latency), and they work just fine.

Acid 4.0 just barely works at 512 samples (11ms latency), and when I record MIDI (thru -> B4 VSTi) there is latency, it feels horrible.

HELP!

- Cowboy