Subject:Multiband dynamics

Posted by: RiRo

Date:6/11/2002 2:24:15 PM

Can the Multiband Dynamics be configured to be used as a loudness maximizer? It has presets for de-ess, reduce plosives, and both, but with the right settings it should(?) work as a loudness maximizer? Any idea what settings to use?

thanks

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: MJhig

Date:6/11/2002 6:02:00 PM

Well...yes, but this is a huge question and may be best answered unfortunately with a question...Why? If you want to raise the volume of only certain frequencies then this would be a good choice but if you want to raise the volume over the entire mix then there are better ways to go about this such as "Volume Maximizer" within Wave Hammer or Graphic Dynamics which affect the whole spectrum.

So before I spend too much more time typing please narrow your question.

MJ

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/12/2002 5:25:23 PM

What I am trying to do is something similar to db-audioware's multiband compressor, or a finalizer. It compresses bass, midrange, and highs separately. Thus, you don't get the bass pumping effect from a hot high-hat. It's the same effect used in TC's Finalizer and the Behringer Ultramizer. I have tried to purchase the db-audioware plugin, but their website is in Germany and my credit card apparently isn't working there. The problem with using Wave Hammer is that any aggressive settings cause very audible pumping and quickly zaps any life out of the music. With the tri-band (the technique has been in use decades in the Orban Opti-Mod FM) you can get much more loudness without the unwanted death of all dynamics. The tri-band can change the sound in a major way, so it takes a while to tweak the settings.

From the db-audioware compressor, the crossover is set at 200 and 4K I can shelf the top and bottom, but don't know how to set the midrange to cover the entire area between 200 and 4k. The bass and midrange are set with a 20ms release and the highs have a 300ms release. The compressors are set to 12 db with gain compensation. Overall, it gives a hearty boost across the wave without lots of the unwanted stuff from a single band compressor.

If it helps, I am recording on a Fostex D160v2 out of an Alesis Studio 32. I take the wave files to the pc from a zip 250, and use Vegas Audio 2 and Sound Forge 5. I will upgrade to six shortly... probably will stick with Audio 2 because I have no need for the video stuff. My computer monitors are Alesis Point Sevins with an Alesis RA 150.

thanks

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/12/2002 6:50:17 PM

Actually I have both a TC Finalizer and the DB-audioware multiband compressor. The Db multiband compressor works pretty well, you can adjust the crossover frequencies, but my finalizer still sounds a lot better and is my multi-band compressor of choice. I was thinking of digging into my finalizer crossover points and copying these to the DB multiband compressor to see if I can get similar results. I heard you can use the SF dynamics compressor as you mentioned. You could probably use the new plugin chainer in SF 6.0 and get some pretty good results using that and an EQ. I haven't used the SF multiband dynamics though to give good advice on this, my finalizer still kicks it's ass. TC works has made a software plugin version of the finalizer, but you have to buy an additional hardware card. I don't know what the price is, since I own one already.

BTW, I understood you're original post. Not trying to knock the first reponses post, but if you're just using a volume maximizer for mastering and increasing levels, you're not even in the same league as multiband compression.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: MJhig

Date:6/12/2002 10:28:27 PM

Things I have learned;

Rednroll is MUCH more insightful and intuitive than I am.

I AM guilty of not completely understanding your original post since over time I've found myself typing line after line in response to a one or two sentence question only to discover I over estimated the complexity of the posters point. The question could have been "Can I use Multiband Dynamics to turn up a downloaded MP3?".

Rednroll likes to type more than I do.

Rednroll has both a TC Finalizer and the DB-audioware multiband compressor.

He's thinking of digging into his finalizer crossover points and copying these to the DB multiband compressor to see if he can get similar results.

TC works has made a software plugin version of the TC Finalizer. But I'm left wondering how this relates to using SF's MultiBand Dynamics.

His finalizer still kicks SF's MultiBand Dynamics ass.

Rednroll understood you're original post... but for some reason didn't answer you until he had the benefit or your more elaborate post even though he had 2 chances since it was also posted in the Direct X forum.

I'm "not even in the same league" so I will defer to Rednroll to post some settings that will be useful in SF's MultiBand Dynamics for volume maximizing.

Rednroll is much more abrasive than I am (even though I grew up in the northeast the so-called uterus of abrasiveness *sp) and tip my hat to him.

Rednroll IS knowledgeable and intelligent but would be much more likable if he thought a little before he reacted. (not trying to knock him though)

Rednroll has that same attitude that as a recently retired 48 yr.o. road musician has worked with, always got along and usually agreed with, from casino to casino (I know, I must suck since I didn't make it big) house sound tech. for years.

What I did NOT learn;

What peramaters RiRo can use to set up some presets in SF's MultiBand Dynamics other than the defaults. (I'm scared to suggest now since it's out of my league)

How to keep from looking like I'm not in the big leagues.

MJ

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/12/2002 10:55:05 PM

More like Rednroll's response answered with an informative response which hopefully lead the user in a path of his choice with the products the poster was familiar with. What I didn't do was answer a question with another question followed by a misinformative statement:

"If you want to raise the volume of only certain frequencies then this would be a good choice but if you want to raise the volume over the entire mix then there are better ways to go about this such as "Volume Maximizer"

Sorry, but I disagree and don't believe you understand the use of multiband compression and I'm sure there are many other mastering engineers on this forum that would agree with me. Or if your statement about raising volume is better done through the use of a "Volume Maximizer" plugin, then maybe you can lend some backing information supporting that statement? I could type a little more and explain why it isn't, but I've given that information in the past in this forum and I'm sure you can do a search on this forum and find that post if you wish. But I would like to hear your version first hand of why a "volume maximer" or "wavehammer" is the better tool than a multiband compressor to raise the overall volume of a mix.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: MJhig

Date:6/13/2002 12:07:43 AM

Aw, now your trying to spin it, that's not what I said at all, what I said was,

Question; "Can the Multiband Dynamics be configured to be used as a loudness maximizer?"

Answer; "Well...YES, but this is a huge question and may be best answered unfortunately with a question...Why? If you want to raise the volume of only certain frequencies then this would be a good choice..." is what I said, not knowing exactly what the poster was referring to.

I probably should have written "If you want to raise the volume of only certain frequencies then this would be a good choice but if you want to raise the volume over the entire mix *to turn up a downloaded MP3?* (since I didn't know what the poster was after) then there are better ways to go about this such as "Volume Maximize" within Wave Hammer or Graphic Dynamics which affect the whole spectrum. This would be more than sufficient for MP3s etc.. Would you agree?

I must disagree with your statement "Rednroll's response answered with an informative response which hopefully lead the user in a path of his choice with the products the poster was familiar with." Maybe I missed something but I found nothing informative in terms of applying SF's MultiBand Dynamics in your post to the original posters query. All I saw was what I posted in my last post.

I do use SF's MultiBand Dynamics in my plugin chain constantly but I by no means profess to be an expert at it's use. There is nothing other than trial and error approaches available to an editor that I know of.

I can not even offer a somewhat standard approach as my world of mastering at this stage does not involve pristine multitrack recordings under my control but more often are 2 track stereo horrible, noisy mixes I did not record that require extremely aggressive editing. Each song in fact requires different settings unfortunatly but I would have been willing to offer my experience with the plugin. Rednroll I'm not here to defend myself, I no longer need to get along with anyone, but would certainly still at my age love to learn something as often as possible.

You on the other hand should at least be able to offer a generic, play by the rules example instead of trying to spin, defend yourself or knock me as you work in a much more controlled environment and I actually had expected a working, in-depth general helpful analysis of this topic from you. I was unfortunately faced with a defensive spin.

In summary I in general respect your posts and would along with many others I'm sure, love for you to list something informative about SF's MultiBand Dynamics that you've made your self aware of instaid of "I haven't used the SF multiband dynamics though to give good advice on this" instead of using the opportunity to "knock" someone else, after all this is a Sound Forge forum presumably focused on the use of Sound Forge products, but I again point out that if you use your ability for good and not evil Batman, things could be sooooo much better in Gotham.

MJ

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/13/2002 7:39:44 PM

Um... dunno where you got the MP3 angle on this... I have no use for tweaking MP3 files. I am trying to put some thunder in some radio commercials that I produce in my studio and send to radio stations. They play them on the air. They get paid for playing them, and I get paid for producing them. I can tell from your rewording of my question that you do not have the concept of multiband compression/finalizing down. That is ok. I don't have the concept of brain surgery down either, and that is ok. Of course, I don't reply to posts asking questions about brain surgery...

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/14/2002 10:09:06 AM

Thank you, my point exactly.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/14/2002 10:27:17 AM

And Batman, just so you don't go on rambling some more and make yourself look any more ignorant....

"If you want to raise the volume of only certain frequencies then this would be a good choice"

Now that you stated this uncorrectly twice. "Multi-band" dynamics does NOT raise the volume of only certain frequencies......that would be called an "Equalizer"....the multi-band dynamics affects ALL the frequencies thus the word "MULTI" other wise it might be called something like a "Single band dynamics...or band pass filter, or notch filter" All of which are common audio 101 terms and obviously, as the original poster stated, you don't have an understanding of "Multiband dynamics"....which was the title of the post.

So why don't you ramble on some more nonsense.

"I do use SF's MultiBand Dynamics in my plugin chain constantly but I by no means profess to be an expert at it's use. There is nothing other than trial and error approaches available to an editor that I know of."

Wrong again, an editor understands simple audio terms and use of common tools and doesn't have to rely on "trial and error"....a person who doesn't understand what "Multiband dynamics" WOULD have to rely on "Trial and Error." and I would think your work would lean more towards the "Error" side with all your misunderstandings. Maybe you should get off the Grateful Dead tour bus and pick up some books and start reading, before attacking someone that understands Multiband dynamics and was only criticizing you for giving WRONG information that doesn't help anyone. I use multi-band dynamics daily to raise the level of songs, and it's a better tool than a volume maximizer because it takes into account how much compression get's applied to each frequency band of the "Entire frequency spectrum", something a volume maximizer doesn't.....and also something that you said couldn't be done.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: havlicek

Date:6/16/2002 9:05:07 AM

As Rednroll stated, MB Dyn. does not really raise the volume of certain frequencies, but it certainly will raise the AVERAGE level of certain frequencies (just as a full bandwidth compressor will raise the average level of program material). The (hopeful)result can be exactly what the poster was looking for (add some "thunder"). Of course, decreasing dynamic range (even over just selected frequency ranges) also has negative consequences (most notably raising the noise floor and "pumping" type artifacts)...but multiband dynamics processing gives the user greater control over how to handle these. I don't see what the problem is, you all seem to know what you're talking about, but maybe the terminology has gotten in the way of agreement.
Since MB Dyn. processing can change radically with different program material, presets (when available)are usually no more than broad starting points. Even so, the presets in SF MB Dyn. aren't particularly useful (IMO) and so I find myself also doing alot of "trial and error". I've heard great things about the TC Finalizer, and it might be useful to copy settings from tried and true presets on that machine, but you won't be getting the actual piece of hardware which (acting as a whole)is creating the effect. It would be interesting to see how far some of those settings could actually go in creating starting templates for the SF MB Dyn. OK, now you can all flame me and ease up on each other.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/18/2002 9:37:06 PM

End of story, I got db-multiband limiter because they finally fixed their credit card handling problem. So whether or not multiband works for finalizing (which it does!), I can do it.

Rednroll, I would love to see the TC Finalizer settings to have a place to play around, and I would equally love a walk-thru on how you used Vegas to do the same thing. I catch the drift, but got lost in the details. Ultimately, that path should give virtually any control wanted in multiband.

RiRo

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/18/2002 10:33:21 PM

Exactly what I was talking about. This is something I am working on as a side project and experimenting with in Vegas, and once I get everything tweaked exactly so that it's working well I will post my setup for everyone. It came to me one night and I quickly setup a 5 band multiband compressor using vegas, and it sounded great. I need to spend a little time getting the best crossover points, which I will probably steal from my finalizer personal mastering presets. I could even email you the .VEG file once it's complete. I'm liking the idea of using vegas as a multiband compressor, because I will have the option to solo each band and listen to see if I'm over compressing a particular frequency band. That's something I can't do with the finalizer.

I'll probably make a post in this forum and the Vegas Audio forum in about a week.

For now here's the crossover frequencies from the finalizer.

Low Band: 0 to 315Hz
Mid Band: 315Hz to 3.15Khz
High Band: 3.15Khz to 22khz

Attacks and releases:
Low Band: 20mS Attack, 1.0 sec release
Mid Band: 10mS Attack, .7 sec release
High Band: 5mS Attack, .5 sec release

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: JTelles

Date:6/19/2002 8:23:03 AM

Just for the record: have you guys checked the new Ultrafunk Sonitus R3 package? I t now has (among nine other excellent plugins) a fx:multiband I found really impressive. It is a five bands compressor with great options and flexibility...
You find it at http://www.ultrafunk.com/
JTelles

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/19/2002 3:35:56 PM

Thanks Rednroll!

The default crossovers for the db-multiband are as follows:

ground - 200 low
200-4k med
4k - up high

DB does not give attack and release... it has a single adjustment called "decay" set at

20ms low
20ms med
300ms high

I'll have to figure out the similarities between "decay" and att-rel.

I would love for you to email me the veg file when you get that done. Having numerous freqs would be neat, and playing with some different compression/limiting/volume settings in the bands could be worthwhile.

Thanks for your help.

RiRo

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/19/2002 3:38:22 PM

I had not seen the ultrafunk multiband. It looks good... as do all of the ultrafunk plugins. decisions decisions....


RiRo

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: SeanC

Date:6/19/2002 8:45:56 PM

for what it's worth, you generally want faster releases the higher the frequency band. Bass should have slower attack and release, and highs should have faster attack and release.

By the looks of the previous post, it looked like DB set it up a bit opposite. I have the DB pack and use it quite a bit...very nice.

Sean

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/20/2002 7:16:46 PM

I downloaded the Ultrafunk pack yesterday and tried out the multiband compressor. I give it 2 thumbs up for it's user interface. Very intuitive and very flexible with all the necessary controls, although it did take me a few minutes to find the threshold controls, but there they where right infront of my eyes next to the vu meters of each band. RiRo, I know you just purchased the DB-audio multiband, but I think the ultrafunk is a much better plugin now that I've seen it and used both.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/20/2002 10:40:30 PM

I will give them a shot. The overall package looks really good, and I was impressed with the multiband as well. Thanks for your help. Don't forget, I still want the vegas multiband trick when it comes off the press.

thanks!

RiRo

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/20/2002 11:08:33 PM

Have you tried the iZotope stuff yet? If so, how does it compare to UltraFunk? Strangely enough, I just got a kick up the ladder at the Radio Station, and will do all the buying for the AM station... and production tools are first on the list.

RiRo

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: JTelles

Date:6/21/2002 11:07:09 AM

Both are excellent and I would get both if I had the $. But the "vintage" options of the Ultrafunk compressors are really winning my preferences...
Good luck
JTelles

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: RiRo

Date:7/8/2002 1:08:11 AM

Hey Red,

Just checking... how's the vegas multiband coming? I'm still very interested

RiRo

Subject:Thanks Rednroll

Reply by: RiRo

Date:8/24/2002 12:21:53 PM

Rednroll,

I just got Ultrafunk's kit and the multiband is very good. Thanks for the good steer on this. I'm still looking at a DBX 286a, and just wanted to say thank you for helping me make some good decisions.

RiRo

Subject:RE: Thanks Rednroll

Reply by: JTelles

Date:8/24/2002 10:11:50 PM

By the way, I tested the suggested TC Finalizer setting with the UltraFunc multiband and found the results REALLY good. Since it has 5 bands I split the low and high in two and kept the mid definition. The suggested attack and release values were also found to be perfect. Good tip...
JTelles

Subject:RE: Thanks Rednroll

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:8/25/2002 7:52:55 PM

Glad to help out on the mastering tips. Sorry, I haven't gotten around to getting the Vegas TC finalizer emulator done yet. I just bought a new house, and my studio has been floating with me to temporary apartment stays until I move into the new house. At which time, I will get my mastering gear up and running and continue to build a full studio in the house. Right now, I'm just been doing some editing with Vegas on a laptop and haven't had my studio monitors, to give everyone a reliable Vegas mastering setup. It's still in the works, I haven't forgotten. Stay tuned.

I'm glad to hear, the TC parameters worked good in the Ultrafunk plugs. I've got those and yet have to master a project with them, but they look like the best mulitband stuff I've seen outside of hardware for the PC yet.

Subject:RE: Thanks Rednroll

Reply by: RiRo

Date:8/25/2002 10:11:43 PM

Where did you break the low and high bands? I'd love to see your settings. The few days I have had the ultrafunk plugin have yeilded some really good sounds. The "vintage" compression is just about enough to make a fellow lose his hardware compressors... ok... maybe not quite, but really good.

RiRo

Subject:RE: Thanks Rednroll

Reply by: JTelles

Date:8/26/2002 9:15:46 AM

Ok, the settings I ended up with in the test I did are below, but I think it is the original TCfinalizer parameters that provides the important starting point...

Common:
Q 1.00 (TCR and Limit on) Out 2.0 dB

1 2 3 4 5
RA 3.0 4.1 4.0 3.0 3.0
Kn 10 10 10 10 10 dB
Ty Norm Norm Norm Norm Norm
Ga 2.0 2.5 3.0 3.0 3.1 dB
At 20.0 20.0 10.0 8.0 5.0 ms
Re 1004 1008 700 500 500 ms

Thresholds:
Band 1 Band 2 Band 3 Band 4 Band 5
-25.6 -21.2 -21.6 -31.2 -31.3 dB
Band Limit Freq.:
80 317 3170 7096 Hz

Hope it helps,
JTelles

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: fishtank

Date:8/26/2002 11:51:42 AM

I am surprised that nobody mentioned the Waves C4 Multiband compressor. I use mine quite a bit and have been very impressed. It is far better than the SF Multiband Dynamics etc.

I do not have the Waves L2 Mutliband peak-limiter yet, but I hear it is quite good as well. Between the C4 and the L2 you should be able to compress the ever livin' crap out of something with minimal artifacts.

Subject:RE: Thanks Rednroll

Reply by: RiRo

Date:8/27/2002 11:03:56 PM

Thanks! I gave it a whirl on a song I am working on and the sound is very good. The overall level was slightly lower on the finished project, but I fixed that and was very pleased with the results!

Thanks again!

RiRo

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: BarryB

Date:8/30/2002 1:05:59 PM

Another Ultrafunk fan here! I'm glad to here more people talk about them. The multiband is worth the cost of the entire plugin package alone. I thought about Ozone, but now that I have Ultrafunk suite, I think I'm set. I don't like the Vegas multiband or really any of their plugins to be honest, although Acoustic Mirror is incredible.

Subject:RE: Multiband dynamics

Reply by: caG

Date:9/2/2002 1:04:27 AM

"I am surprised that nobody mentioned the Waves C4 Multiband compressor. I use mine quite a bit and have been very impressed. It is far better than the SF Multiband Dynamics etc."

If you like C4, you're gonna love the Waves LinMB plugin. They made the C4 alot better, it has 5 bands and a heap of new options. Unfortunately it take alot more processing power than C4 used.


"I do not have the Waves L2 Mutliband peak-limiter yet, but I hear it is quite good as well."

L2 owns all. I use it on every one of my mixes, and its quite useful in so many different ways. Too bad its expensive as hell... haha


"Between the C4 and the L2 you should be able to compress the ever livin' crap out of something with minimal artifacts"

I'd recommend you check out PSP MixSaturator, I've been using that ALOT lately and it really does a great job at bringing out the detail in a track (the preamp setting usually works best on a fully mixed track).

PSP MixTreble, MixBass and MixPressor are also quite useful as well. The things MixTreble can do with highs is just amazing, for restoration work this plugin is indispensable.

BTW: You should try the Multi-band Dynamics in Samplitude Producer 2496's Wave Editor - it really blows away the Soundforge version. I'd recommend that Soundforge do something similar in a future version. Samplitude has alot of interesting plugins that Soundforge should incorporate something similar, since Samplitude is too slow, buggy and the interface is extremely annoying (i love soundforges interface - so clean and useful).