Revisiting Ext. Monitor issues

prairiedogpics wrote on 8/13/2002, 7:46 AM
I've been looking at all the posts re: issues with external monitors, and just last night I hooked mine up for the first time and saw that I had similar issues (for which none of the posts have a definitive answer). Here's what happens with my set up:
I "capture" DV AVI (720x480) from a Hi-8 camcorder via my Firewire/ADVC-100 A/D converter (zero frames dropped) thru VV3's vid cap. While in the vid cap utility, if I right-click on the captured file and choose play (the utility switches to "print-to-tape") and view it on the external monitor (firewire port to ADVC-100 to monitor) it plays FLAWLESSLY. I close vid cap and then try to view the same clip thru the external monitor via the explorer window OR from the timeline within VV3 and the clip essentially "skips" frames on the external monitor. When played in the same fashion in the VV3 preview window (not external monitor) the clips play fine once again. Anybody have a clue? Why should the files play fine thru vid cap's "print to tape" function (VV3 open in the background) and not play perfectly from with in VV3's timeline?
Square pixels are off, properties match video source, defragged drives.
PIII 866 MHz, 512 MB RAM, 32 MB GeForce2 MX, 40 GB 7200 RPM OS HDD, 60 GB 7200 RPM HDD(video only) on PCI Ultra ATA 100 controller card, Win ME.

Dynamic RAM previews and prerenders play fine in VV3's preview window (not ext. mon.), but skip frames on external monitor.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Sonic Foundry?

Dan

Comments

SonyEPM wrote on 8/13/2002, 10:10 AM
what is your video preview window size and resolution (draft, preview, good, best..)?
prairiedogpics wrote on 8/13/2002, 10:13 AM
Video preview is set to preview. Also, there are no fx or blends. Just one captured clip on the timeline. Opacity of the video track is 100%.
HPV wrote on 8/13/2002, 1:22 PM
You guys should have no problem reproducing this at the SF labs. As some of us have said, it really shows with motion scenes. That can be subject or camera movement. If you need some clips like this, let me know. I've done lots of tweaking in internals trying to fix, no go.
I thought that VidCap had playback buffering where Vegas doesn't ? If so, why the clean previews from the media pool and explorer window in Vegas?
Could this be a bug with Nvidia driver systems only ? Any ati or matrox users have this ohci preview "stalling" glitch ?

Craig H.
mitteg wrote on 8/13/2002, 2:02 PM
Hello,

I'm with a matrox G550, AMD Ahtlon XP 1800+ ,512 MB RAM and I have more or less the same problem. The previews of events played in the "media tool" or the "explorer" are smooth, perfect. But The previews from the timeline are completely jerky-> only 13-14 fps. I'm /we are talking about videos without any effects.

Please, experts, what happens with the previews from the timeline ?
SonyEPM wrote on 8/13/2002, 2:41 PM
right click on one of the video events causing the problem, go to properties, media, and please list all of the stream properties. Most specifically, does the format say "DV", or something else?

Also: you might try posing the same questions on creativecow.net, Vegas forum- lots of machine-twekaers on that fourm.
winrockpost wrote on 8/13/2002, 3:18 PM
I have the same problem,, always had ,thought it was just something I had to live with,, are you (SF) saying we should have smooth ext monitor preview from the timeline ?

Matrox g550 amd 2000+, 1024ram, 2 80g 7200 8mb drives
HeeHee wrote on 8/13/2002, 4:34 PM
I have this issue as well, but if I prerender it looks fine afterwards. I have just learned to except it. I really only use the preview on ext monitor to check color and brightness levels anyway, so it's not a big deal to me, but it would be nice to be fixed.
SonyEPM wrote on 8/13/2002, 4:47 PM
Forgive me if you already knew all this:

You should get perfectly smooth external monitor playback with straightcut DV on a well tuned PII400, with 98SE (the minimum system). As you start to add fx, transitions or anything that requires processing, framerate will drop depending, ENTIRELY, on the capabilities of your computer. The faster your system, the better the performance. If you prerender, that is internally the same as playing back straight-cut DV, and you'll have full-framerate previews again. With computers getting faster and cheaper every day, the performance of Vegas will scale upwards every time you upgrade the system, no additional hardware needed.
salad wrote on 8/13/2002, 4:53 PM
That's a good point HeHe,
I got the impression that you use preview on external monitor to "check".......stuff: Colors, text placement, check for interlace flicker once it's rendered, and final playback test before outputting to tape....etc.

lemme go check mine again....


OK, I checked this feature again. It works fine. Only where frame recompression is needed does it drop frames. Prerendering those areas, and they play smooth too.


HeeHee wrote on 8/13/2002, 5:06 PM
After reading SonicEPM's statement, I agree that this is not a bug in VV, but an inherent system performace issue (Video is a Hog on system resources).

In light of that, Previewing on external monitors is not a good way for editing video. It appears to be meant for evaluating the video on a TV before final output to tape. A better method would be to use dual monitors and move the preview window over to it to view at project size.
wcoxe1 wrote on 8/13/2002, 5:12 PM
Although I have never encountered this problem, and I have been using an external monitor for everything for quite some time, it seems that part of it could be solved if SF were to adopt automatic and continuous background prerendering, such as done by Pinnacle and others.

Just a thought, SF.
prairiedogpics wrote on 8/13/2002, 5:30 PM
As per your request SonicEPM, here's the stream info:
Stream1: Video, 29.970 fps, 720x480x24, DV
Stream2: Audio, 48,000 Hz, 16-bit, Stereo, Uncompressed.

Also, the timeline clip stutters even when the Audio track is muted (off).

Based on SonicEPM's last post, this shouldn't happen on my P3 866 MHz. Just how shpuld I tune my PC?

BTW, this issue is being bantered about on creativecow.net in their VV3 forum. ((Interesting how someone on that says they get NO skips using celeron 600MHz.)
winrockpost wrote on 8/13/2002, 6:12 PM
Ok ,, I don't NEED preview on ext monitor,, just use it for checks,, however now I am curious.. prerender video ,view on ext monitor-- it is jumpy-period. Print to tape view on ext monitor --perfectly smooth.. Has always been this way on two different systems, g550,amd athlon 2000+,dedicated 7200 rpm 8buf drive,1024 ram
prophet4000xt.amd athlon 1.3 dedicated 7200rpm drive,512 ram
salad wrote on 8/13/2002, 6:27 PM
rise1,
Does ALL your footage on the timeline play back jumpy(sections with no fx/transitions)? What about a full rendered video brought back up on the timeline? Same?
Do you use the G550 to send to ext. monitor?
winrockpost wrote on 8/13/2002, 6:46 PM
firewire out -sony dvmc-da2 converter to sony monitor,, on both systems,,, doesn't matter if the entire project is prerendered ,effects or not, it just doesn't play smooth.
I can select a section and print to tape from the timeline and it plays perfecly, play the same section from the timeline on preview ,best res, and it jumps. Not a big deal normaly view on the computer monitors other than color checks before printing, but now I'm curious to what is going on.I thought it was just a VV bug, but sonicEPM says no, hmmmmmm.
HPV wrote on 8/14/2002, 1:25 AM
I agree it isn't a major deal. I too use OHCI ext. monitor more as a frame buffer for checking things. But when we keep going round & round, it's time to get the air cleared up.
One: this subject is about ext. monitor/OHCI previews only. A dual video card with the preview window on one monitor is not an ext. monitor. This isn't about jitter on rendered files or printing to tape either.
Two: most won't see the problem unless they have footage that has a steady speed motion to it. Fast zoom out with a pan of buildings will show it every time. New project, no edits, just that same clip on the timeline one after another. Dynamic Ram preview should be set to 0MB.
Three: SF crew, please do some tests to check on this. It sure doesn't look system related, as just about every mix of CPU speed, OS, memory amount, vid card is having the same results. These are all systems that play avi DV files just fine in any other app. except from the Vegas timeline. It looks like a "stalling" of frames that results in a jerky playback.

Craig H.
Johannes_H wrote on 8/14/2002, 1:52 AM
P4 1800 512MB Matrox G550 (PAL DV)
Exact same problem here!
In addition there is also a difference between Timeline-Preview (External Monitor) which gives dropped frames versus "Print to Tape" which runs smoothly (no dropped frames) - can someone verify this?
Again: I talk about only one clip in the timeline, no effects, nothing to render.

Johannes
Johannes_H wrote on 8/14/2002, 2:01 AM
I can exactly double this statement (P4 1800 512MB Matrox G550)!
Rendering Preview does NOT make any difference because nothing gets rendered (because its the native DV PAL video without any effects).
What really makes a difference is Preview versus Print to Tape.
Loóks like some "buffering" issue???

Johannes
prairiedogpics wrote on 8/14/2002, 7:35 AM
HPV summed it up perfectly on his post from 8/14/02 at 1:25:36.
Please, let's forget about dual monitors, etc.
The issue is skipped frames on an external monitor via OHCI cards.
No blends, fx, etc. Just a clean single DV AVI clip in the timeline. Too many hardware/OS configs. mention the same problem for it to be hardware related.

Sonic Foundry, what exactly would be the preferred settings for this to run flawlessly from the timeline (Dynamic RAM set to what?, nothing but systray and explorer running in task manager?, is there a way to give VV3 priority memory usage in Windows?) I love VV3, but this issue keeps gnawing at me because Sonic Foundry says it should do such and such, but hardly anybody reports that you CAN preview on an External monitor via OHCI card FROM THE TIMELINE without getting skips (note that a lot of people report they thought they just had to "live with it," whereas SonicEPM reports you should be able to do this on a PENTIUM II 400 MHz 'tuned' PC).

SonicEPM, spell it out for me. What are the preferred VV3 and Windows OS system settings.

Thanks, Dan
mitteg wrote on 8/14/2002, 7:48 AM
I'm also interested in what SF experts say. I have the same problem: jerky playback from the timeline either in a external monitor or in the screen "preview window". I'm waiting for beggining to edit a project until we can sort it out.

Thanks.

Robert.
robertmoix@terra.es
salad wrote on 8/14/2002, 1:02 PM
It just seems there is a lot of "stuttery" issues in a variety of playback modes. Some in the preview window, some with xternal monitor only, some with rendering....etc.
I would have to agree that there is an issue...or 2.....or three here.


Not hardware related? I see Pentiums and Matrox mentioned......what's going on?

Keep this thread going
craftech wrote on 8/27/2002, 11:24 AM
I just started experiencing this problem too. Was it ever resolved?

John
prairiedogpics wrote on 8/27/2002, 2:59 PM
I implemented all the suggestions from SonicEPM (to the best of my ability) and also used MOST of the "tweaks" from this website:

http://www.videoguys.com/WinME_Tweaks.html

Now I can play from the timeline and view with my external monitor (31" Panasonic TV with video inputs) just great - no jitters.

(Remember: This is clean DV.AVI files with NO FX/fades or any thing that needs rendering!)

Good Luck!

Dan
DougHamm wrote on 8/29/2002, 1:37 PM
On my old PIII-500 BX-based system I was able to preview flawlessly. On my new 1800+ system I am not. I live with a jitter every few seconds, knowing that playback to tape via Scenalyzer Live! works 100% all the time for final output.

My theory has always been that my VIA-based mainboard SUCKS for editing. No qualms with SF, AMD, or otherwise. Why? Because VIA has a history of crappy bus sharing of PCI devices, and the big difference between previewing out firewire versus print-to-tape is that in the former you've got one stream going out firewire and one going out to your audio card, while in the latter it's all channeled out firewire.

So I live with it and only use the monitor for sanity checks; however I used to use it all the time. I'm hoping that a new SiS based Pentium mainboard in November will clear up my woes.

Can any of you confirm the manufacturer of your motherboard chipset?

-Doug