Subject:First impressions?

Posted by: hermanakos

Date:8/19/2002 6:20:13 AM

So, Pro 4.0 is finally here. I downloaded it last night and played with it two times sofar. Of those two it crashed once.
In general my first impressions are good, I like the interface, the VSTi-plugin worked the first time I ran it (the second time it said no softsynth selected).
Anyone else want to give me their first impressions of the-product-we-all-waited-so-long-for?

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: johnvulich

Date:8/19/2002 6:50:38 AM

From my K-v-R post on the matter...

No VSTi automation.
Only velocity editing is graphic, all other MIDI CC editing is done via an event editor (YUCK!!! like writing a novel with Morse Code!)
No multiple output VSTi support.
No CPU meter.

Sorry to say but the VSTi support in ACID 4.0 is a JOKE!!! It feels exactly like what it is... an afterthought! Come on guys... get with the program! The features that I mentioned as missing are standard on every other VSTi Host!

It's sad really, Sonic Foundry was so inovative in developing apps like ACID but lately they have been consistantly 2 years behind the rest of the industry.

Shame, I was really looking forward to this release.

JV

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/19/2002 6:56:41 AM

Also, I noticed it has no support for NI's Dynamo, but also I didn't get NI's Battery to work. Anyone else had this problem too?

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: johnvulich

Date:8/19/2002 7:13:29 AM

I got Battery to work just fine. However it's useless because of lack of multiple outputs! That is unless you like the same amount of Reverb (or other effects) on each sound.

JV

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/19/2002 7:26:27 AM

So it looks like ACID is for the basics and you still need Cubase SX for the automation, multiple outputs, effects, etc. Luckily I own SX, so no problems there.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: PHATDRUMS

Date:8/19/2002 11:11:49 AM

IF YOU WENT TO BAKERS AND BOUGHT YOURSELF A CAKE, TOOK IT HOME, MOUTHWATERING IN ANTICIPATION
REACHED HOME OPENED YOUR MOUTH UNWRAPPED IT GENTLY TOOK ONE LAST LOOK THEN JUMPED IN
AND TOOK THE BIGGEST EVER BITE IMAGINABLE ONLY TO SPIT IT OUT IMMEDIATLEY ON DISCOVERING THAT IT WAS ONLY HALF BAKED! YOU WOULD POP IT BACK IN ITS WRAPPER AND HOT FOOT IT BACK TO THE SHOP FOR A REFUND / EXCHANGE I WOULD WOULDNT YOU?
WELL THIS PRODUCT IS HALF BAKED ITS UNDERCOOKED ITS NOT FINISHED !! THERE ARE THINGS AS BADLY IMPLEMENTED AS THE TOYTOWN KIDDIES MIDI WAS IN ACID V3 IT IS NOT PRO PRODUCT HALF BAKED HALF ASSED IT COULD HAVE BEEN MARVELLOUS
PROGRAMMERS HAVING SPOT OF
BOTHER KEEPING UP WITH OTHER MODERN APPS? THEY NEED TO GET OUT MORE ON THIS SHOWING

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:8/19/2002 11:49:13 AM

STOP COMPARING ACID TO SONAR/SX/LOGIC/ETC...! I did and I'm sleeping better now as well.

Keep your fingers crossed for a "third-party" OPT midi plugin to suite the needs of the PRO midi market. Yes I expected more like yourself but with OPT I hope we'll see more in LESS the amount of time it would take for sofo to develop one.[But then again I have sonar 2.0XL so this ain't a biggy]

VSTi support in acid fits the acid model of workflow fine.[for what it does]
You ask..."Why no multiple output VSTi support?"...I ask..."Why no vegas style multitracking?"...See my point?

No CPU meter...If you want a cpu meter[win2k/XP] just hit "CTRL+ALT+DELETE" and minimize the "windows task manager" and you'll see on the bottom right hand corner your CPU meter that you wanted. I've been told that with too many "bells+whistles"like a cpu meter,etc...would slow down the app and would make it feel less "swift" as it does now.

On the audio side of Acid you CAN'T tell me that your not loving it. From bus tracks to 5.1 mixing to asio support to many other added features I seriously CAN'T complain. Thanks SOFO.

Though there are little issues that I'll discuss in another post. Later.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/19/2002 11:52:41 AM

I wouldn't call ACID Pro 4 a half-baked product. Yes, it could use something extra, but on the other hand it's not Cubase or Logic and it also doesn't intend to be that. I'm reasonably happy with it sofar, although I'd like ACID to move in the direction Cubase/Logic have taken I acknowledge the fact that it's a looptool in it's essence and that it should stay that. I'd like SOFO though to develop a combination app of ACID/SF/Vegas for the high-end professional market that can compete with SX and Logic....

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:8/19/2002 12:04:12 PM

TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/19/2002 12:22:43 PM

Thanks you!

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Radtz

Date:8/19/2002 12:35:33 PM

As an Acid 3 owner, and Sonar 2.0 on the way, do you think I would be gaining anything for $99?

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/19/2002 12:38:51 PM

I've tried Sonar once in a demo, didn't like it. So I really don't know. As a Cubase SX-owner I did upgrade to ACID 4, simply because of the VSTi-support. It means that I can do the setup of projects (remixes etc.) in ACID and do the mixing, automation and effects in Cubase SX.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Radtz

Date:8/19/2002 12:50:01 PM

Being a Logic Audio user turned Sonar user, I don't have any VSTis.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:8/19/2002 1:51:27 PM

5.1 SURROUND MIXING!!!
Plus a faster interface to get your loop projects completed. Sonar IS cool but it ain't acid.
Plus a AC3 ENCODING/DVD Burning utility for ACID PRO coming soon
from Sonic Foundry. This plug-in will let users share their 5.1 mixes
on DVD.
Those three were BIG reasons for me.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Radtz

Date:8/19/2002 2:14:53 PM

Great discussion. I have surround in Logic, but I don't really do any 5.1 or have a DVD burner. I am curious about the faster interface comment though.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Darklight20

Date:8/19/2002 5:07:57 PM

Yea its very unstable if you ask me. I can't believe a company trying to go so professional with how they present themselves now is still putting out some of the buggiest software around. The thing crashed on me 4 times and fruity loops doesn't work right with it. I'm not buying it till they fix the bugs.

Jay

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Mus

Date:8/19/2002 5:33:34 PM

Hmm quite a few crashes here too.

Kind of a strange midi implementation. In some ways the OPT solution is quite neat - Right click, Properties and tabs for Piano or Event editor. The Event list editor is reminiscent of Sonar but at least you seem to be able to edit without the whole goddamn project glitching. The Spacebar didn't seem to work in the plug-in.

So far I'm curious to investigate further rather than enthusiastic.

Anyway here in the UK it's time for sleep so I gotta go...

M

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:8/19/2002 6:10:50 PM

Jay,

How about telling us a bit more about your computer? I've been using Acid 4 pretty extensively and haven't experienced any unorthdox crashes so far. If you'd give more information on your setup, I'd be gald to try and help you out.

Regards,
Nick LaMartina

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: MacMoney

Date:8/19/2002 7:13:03 PM

I've been on it all day no crashes here and Im really pushing it.

George Ware

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:8/19/2002 8:01:37 PM

I haven't had any crashes at all but all my work thus far has only been loops...no vsti's[gotta get some now]. Nothing to report. Later.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: waynegee

Date:8/19/2002 8:29:18 PM

Yeah, the MIDI implementation is a bit weird and no, this does NOT count as input monitoring. This is basically a kludge that is more trouble than it is worth. I don't like this MIDI deal.(But to be fair to SoFo, I HATE MIDI anyway. The only MIDI to get it right is Reason, IMHO. No flames please.) Yes, ACID is a looping tool and SoFo seems to be right in that if you (they) add more to it, it gets in the way of what it needs to do/should do. The only thing that I think is cool (only 24 hrs into it, mind you) is the FX automatation.

Also, it does seem to be a bit heavy. I got up to 101 audio/loop tracks in Acid 3.0 but now I start getting glitches, stutters and slow-downs around 30-31 tracks in Acid 4. That won't work.

I am/was trying using ACID as part of "an all-in-one-studio" and making my own loops but as we've all come to the realization that "cooking in many pots" is not the most effective work flow. So while I'll still use Acid I gotta look at other solutions as well. (They won't be gettin' many Logic users with this, that's for sho.)

Maybe we bitched and hammered 'em so much they just gave it to us. I dont know but it ain't done yet. I don't really know what to do with it, actually. To keep using in the manner as I was seems to be a waste, I just coulda stayed w/ ACID 3 but 4 is not ready for the future....so now what?

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: slcrz

Date:8/19/2002 8:41:37 PM

Hey Waynegee,
U've been reading my post on the Buglist thread ;)
or we thinking exactly the same...

JAY

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: DougHamm

Date:8/19/2002 9:22:12 PM

Crashes galore here with the demo. I can barely do anything and it'll crash.

Running XP Pro, 1GB RAM, M-Audio Omnistudio ASIO. SoFo lists issues with this card and says to update drivers, and I've got the latest. So this had better not be the root of my evils...

-Doug

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: buffalosnout

Date:8/19/2002 9:40:42 PM

Has anyone else noticed that the overall sound is better? It seems to me that there is more clarity in the high end than in 3.0.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:8/19/2002 10:28:49 PM

Can't you just have Both Acid 3+4 installed at the same time. Use a bit of each untill 4's issues are fixed.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: morphx

Date:8/19/2002 10:43:40 PM

Where did you hear about the "AC3 ENCODING/DVD Burning utility for ACID PRO"?

As a side note:
I started playing with the 5.1 support and noticed that if you enable 5.1 on a quite large project the interface becomes SO slow that it’s completely unusable. Any changes make ACID consume 99% of CPU for about 10 seconds. Even just moving the (playing) cursor freezes Acid until you go back to "stereo" mode.

Any comments on this issue from SOFO?

BTW ...and I know its not my Dual PIII@933Mhz/1GB RAM pc...

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: FadeToBlack

Date:8/19/2002 10:46:31 PM

Doug,
How did you get the demo to install on XP? I can't get it going here with my XP. Nothing unusal about my setup,either. Acid Pro 3g was working fine here.
Gary

Subject:RE: Installing under XP

Reply by: DougHamm

Date:8/19/2002 10:48:04 PM

Gary,

Not a clue my friend. If it makes you feel any better, it's the only thing v4 will do right on my system with ASIO enabled.

-Doug

Subject:RE: Installing under XP

Reply by: FadeToBlack

Date:8/19/2002 11:01:46 PM

Does it have to have ASIO? I don't have it. It keeps saying I haven't modified my setup yet????

Gary

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Studio_de_Lara

Date:8/19/2002 11:02:29 PM

<Can't you just have Both Acid 3+4 installed at the same time. Use a bit of each untill 4's issues are fixed?>

I have both installed just for that reason. I think SoFo is going in the right direction, but 4.0 is very buggy with midi and has to refine some simple midi issues.
The ASIO has not worked for me. At least three crashes with ASIO drivers. I am back to the classic drivers.

Once I went back to classic (WDM?) I have had no issues with the audio aspect. Maybe the ASIO support still needs work? The effects automation takes a little getting used to. I'm so used to moving knobs to record a move vs. drawing the move in. I will either mix on my 2480 or Logic 5.0, so it really doesn't matter (unless someone was looking for that "all in one" app.). It is nice to have some automation for production.

Was it worth the $99? Maybe not 100% yet, but I'm sure SoFo will fix alot of the bugs (like all the other update fixes for there other products).

Overall my impression is a B-.
My two cents.
Rich

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/20/2002 12:41:06 AM

I've also got Acid Pro 3.0 and 4.0 installed at the same time, and yes the overall sound is better in 4.0. I haven't been able to test the ASIO-drivers sofar (those I have in an other computer), but the program hasn't recognized my soundcard more than once. Haven't been able to figure out whether it's 4.0-related or whether it's a hardwarebug in my current (old) computer.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: mr_williams

Date:8/20/2002 4:34:47 AM

im still missing a reverse sample function ;-( i think this is not too hard to implement

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: buffalosnout

Date:8/20/2002 9:18:11 AM

I have been using both 3.0 and 4.0 on my system at the same time. The problem is, there is no backwards compatability save once you are in 4.0. I haven't been able to even copy from 4.0 to paste into 3.0.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:8/20/2002 9:18:24 AM

Well I haven't even installed it yet and judging by the responses here - looks like I will wait for the first maintenance release. Gotta be honest - I don't think I have ever seen this much trouble with an initial release of any SF product.

As an aside - anyone out there running smoothly - as in - no crashes with adequate performance (no popping, glitches) etc?

Cheers,

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: DougHamm

Date:8/20/2002 9:36:17 AM

My lockups certainly seem ASIO-related (again, with an M-audio Delta 66). Without WDM support the only other options (MME or the Windows Sound Mixer) give me latency on the order of over 500ms with even the simple included DLS softsynth and no effects. In other words, is ASIO or bust, and ASIO is busted. :)

I'd love to hear a more technican explanation of the M-Audio bug and why other apps like Reason work fine.

-Doug

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Ted_H

Date:8/20/2002 10:44:13 AM

im still missing a reverse sample function ;-( i think this is not too hard to implement

That function was in an earlier build, and it was harder to implement than we realized. I can't make any promises as far as when, but it is something that we would like to incorporate into Acid eventually.

Ted

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: merlyn60

Date:8/20/2002 11:04:30 AM

I definately think that Acid 4.0 is a step in the right direction, but it does need some work. I've experienced a little "buggyness" (2 crashes) on an Asus P4B Motherboard,P4 1.8G,786 RAM/Windows XP, and an Event EZ Bus Digital.Mixer/Midi Interface/Soundcard while running a purchased version of Acid 4. I like the simple idea of the OPT sequencer, but believe its missing one small thing that makes it a bit too simple. Editing knob movements is a pain in the neck in the events page. The abilty to insert an envelope on the midi event (like a normal envelope or the new automation envelope) that could be assigned to midi events like filtering, lfo, etc would make 4.0 the total bomb for me. Does anyone know if the program coding for that would be much more difficult than the automation coding? This may be addressed by using another companies sequencer plug in, instead of the SOFO one, but does anyone know which company will be offering a dope one and when? SOFO? Until then, keep moving in the right direction SOFO. I'm behind you.

Merlyn

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/20/2002 11:06:02 AM

The problem in the Delta series drivers ASIO is confirmed by MIDIMan/M-Audio. The technical explination is that the driver fails/crashes/locks up when the host attempts to release allocated buffers.

The reason you see this in ACID and not other ASIO apps is in the way ACID communicates with the ASIO drivers. Most ASIO apps open and leave the ports open forever. ACID does not behave this way. We have not seen this problem with any other ASIO drivers for other hardware.

I know that MIDIMan/M-Audio is working on a driver fix. They also were part of the ACID 4 beta, as were many audio hardware vendors.

Peter

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: DougHamm

Date:8/20/2002 12:31:45 PM

Thanks Peter! That's great news. Feel free to contact me if you need someone to try out a patch. douglashamm@generationsvp.com

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:8/20/2002 1:06:37 PM

SonicPCH,

Thank you for the update since I too rely on my Omni Studio/Delta 66 in a big way. If these crashes are Delta driver related...I will wait it out.

Cheers,

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: cyberbeat

Date:8/20/2002 1:30:47 PM

Okay, I downloaded the demo and here is my experience. I am running Windows XP Home with a Sound Blaster Live card. I have used the program three times so far and have had three crashes. I thought the idea of developing software was to make it difficult to crash (or maybe I am way off base here?). Here are the steps I take which makes it crash.

1. Run Acid and press Alt-2 to display the chopper window.
2. Press space bar to start playing the audio.
3. Press space again to stop playback.

Then up pops an error message that says "an unknown error has occurred and this program will be shut down" (wth is that supposed to mean?).

Also, I am a site impaired Acid user who must rely on the keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse. I feel that this release has taken a major step backwards in terms of accessibility for blind users. Sorry to say, but I am extremely disappointed. I love the sound quality of Acid and would love to be able to use it, however, every time I do it crashes on me. Hmmm.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: SonicBC

Date:8/20/2002 3:27:16 PM

are you playing back from the chopper or from the main trackview? What other programs do you have running, and what are your system specs? Something like that would have been definitely found, but I cannot repro on any of my machines

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: mr_williams

Date:8/20/2002 4:13:02 PM

thanks for the answer Ted_H im really hard missing this feature ;-/

overall i can say acid 4.0 is much slower than 3.0. windows takes more times until they appear and stuff...(inserting midi track, insert softsynth) specially when u change from a window (explorer oder iexplorer) back to acid it takes ages until it reloads the view. not if u change from soundforge.

im not happy with all this vsti stuff - also i don't need midi stuff. acid is a kickass sample tool which lets u work with waves like a GOD. such for me "useless" features makes acid unstable and slow. im aware this is just my view of it ;-)

i don't know if other people think like that but just implement vsti and stuff just to be accepted beside cubase or logic is not a good idea ;-/ acid is a wonderful idea but now it looks like bloated to me... ;-( so far ill stay with v3.0

that are enough bad words - SOFO is a kickass company and Sound Forge is Godlike ;-)

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: hermanakos

Date:8/20/2002 4:39:45 PM

Personally I'm happy with the implementation of VSTi- and ASIO-support and if you don't like or need it, just don't use it!. It' still the same killer-app for loops as 3.0 was. Personally I have found 4.0 not to be any slower than 3.0 (just at startup since I guess it looks for more sounddrivers). But adding softsynths makes the app run a bit slower, but that's due (I think) to the VST-dll's taking up RAM and CPU.
Apart from the bugs/crashes I reported, I'm quite happy with the program and I think SOFO did a pretty decent job. Sure, it needs some more development, yes I'd like Rewire and some other features, but for now it's pretty good.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: dlcham

Date:8/20/2002 9:27:43 PM

Pretty dadgum happy with it. Hooked up a VSTi and recorded along with a Siggi loop, rendered the midi track through the soft synth as a .wav file, without much of a problem. It seems to need some prodding at times to hold settings, but I believe Sofo will get those kinds of things worked out.

Subject:RE: First impressions?

Reply by: pgunders

Date:8/21/2002 2:28:27 AM

Thank you for that very, very heartening info. Maybe we won't have to wait forever for a fix from M-Audio if they've been involed!

Best,
P.G.