Subject:Solution To The "No Rewire" Problem

Posted by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/11/2002 5:20:35 PM

Fruity Loops 3.5.5

After someone here told me that 3.5.5 had VSTi integration
I ordered it immediately. It just arrived and in the last
couple of hours I am truly digging this app. Not only does
it do (somewhat differently) everything I can do in Acid
as far as looping but it has so much more.

And it integrates seamlessly into Cubase SX with perfect
sync and multiple outs. It's very similar to Reason with
multiple synths and lots of sounds but it also lets me
EASILY insert a wav loop and match tempo. It also has very
good sound quality when it does thi


So I have no use for Acid 4.0. But since I do like Acid I
might give it another look down the road. 5.0 perhaps?

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Jessariah

Date:8/11/2002 7:26:21 PM

So nice of you to let us know you have no use for Acid 4 -- after all, with Fruity Loops being the industry standard, we're all just churning in the buttermilk anyway, aren't we?

Tocque -- nothing personal here, but you ARE on Sonic Foundry's website. It's pretty tacky to drop a post about how everyone can get by without one of their products.

I use other companies' audio apps and plugins for various things, but Sonic Foundry's products are at the heart of what I do -- from video to audio. They make my digital life a joy, despite whatever bugs, shortcomings or lack of features there may be from one app to another.

Bring Acid 4 on. I'll take it over any other looping application. You can have your Cubase/Fruity Loops. My bet is that you'll be back for Acid 5 with your tail between your legs.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/11/2002 9:10:43 PM

I'm just letting SF know how one consumer made a decision
based on one consumer's needs. My reason for doing this
should be obvious. As one Acid user I want SF to know what
the effect of not incorporating Rewire or some other method
of total integration affected my purchasing decision. I want
Acid to change. I want to keep using Acid. I want Rewire.

There are always people on every app's forums that almost take
it personally when someone criticizes the program. These people
don't understand Consumer Power. They don't realize that this
is how free market competition works. They don't understand
that this criticism drives development and improvement that
they benefit from. They don't understand that blind loyalty
breed stagnation.

I want SF to know that if they continue to ignore the wishes
of consumers like me, those that demand Rewire, that there is
an excellent alternative to their product. This is what's good
for us consumers - competition.

It is because I think SF products are so good that I even bother.

Peace

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/11/2002 9:19:48 PM

PS: If SF should decide that only a handful of their
customers need Rewire, and that the development cost
would be bad for the majority of their users, then they
should continue not to implement Rewire. I don't have
a demographic analysis of Acid users and their needs,
but I would doubt this would be the case. But if it is
the case then hey, they should do what's best for their
business and I'll do what's best for me.

So you see what we have here is democracy and free market
capitalism and freedom of speech working right here in
Sonic Foundry Land.

It's all good

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: ATP

Date:8/12/2002 2:22:19 AM

regardless of rewire or anything, i tried fruity loops and i can't seem to figure out how to use it properly. it truely has the most unintuitive interface i've ever seen in a music app.

so, despite Fruity's considerable advantages i'll stick with ACID for the time being, even tho i still can't use it in combination with other apps. i'd rather do that the hard way than cracking my brain on the inner workings of Fruity Loops.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: anon

Date:8/12/2002 7:14:22 AM

I agree with ATP;

Fruity Loops = One big pain in the ass.

Yeah, it's cheap. Yeah, it's got a lot of stuff in it. But it's not fun to use. I might as well just get Buzz Machines and do the same shit for free if I wanted the headache.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:8/12/2002 11:06:56 AM

It's a funny thing, but Fruity was and is the weapon of choice for Euro beat boys, and this is the same crowd that tolerated the ludicrous pure-numbers Cubase for many years before Steinberg was dragged kicking and screaming into the GUI world many years later, long after all their competition had gone graphical.

I figure it's those 12 weeks of vacation a year they get over there, plus the two hour lunches every afternoon, all the wine drunk from unglazed Roman pottery and fumes from the Chunnel that gives them the sheer time and mental acuity to deal with Fruity and numerical sequencing. Americans have to cut to the chase.

Anyway, Tocque is right--No ReWire is a gating element, a potential dealbreaker. Sales are and will be lost by this decision. You can either bolt and deal with other apps' interface-horror shows or stand and fight for SOFO as a going concern. Me, I don't want to lose SOFO in the marketplace, and I believe the majority of the Acid community is with me in this. Either you believe SOFO will deliver ReWire in short order because they have to and want to, or you don't. If the global community hangs with them, they will reward that loyalty with critical new pro features. Wacky time signatures and OPT were not on the list of user demands.

But the clock is ticking. VSTi and some goofy plug-in piano roll editor ain't gonna cut it. And the much-vaunted audio engine "optimization" doesn't even seem to exist anymore. This upgrade was a weak showing, but a resounding message was sent to SOFO: The loyal Acid fan base will hang in to keep you going, but not forever. Get your act together fast and we all win.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/12/2002 11:25:36 AM

cracking my brain on the inner workings of Fruity Loops

wow.

Cracking your brain, eh? looks like you have a long way to go then. ;)

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/12/2002 11:30:08 AM

Im american, do alternative rock , and fruity is my weapon of choice, alot more so than Acid. It is sample based, but with loop options and synths that are included in it... It destroys acid except for two things.... you cant use multiple time sigs in a song (This will be remidied in the next release of fruity, coming soon) and you really wouldnt want to record Audio into it, its a big mess. Otherwise, It kills acid for me because All I do is export the arrangment into Vegas anyway. However, I will defiently be looking foward to Acid 4, With Vsti support...

Fruity is understated, And it doesnt take a european beat head to figger it out...

check the usage of it here (Fruity and Vegas, NO ACID.)

http://www.mp3.com/Jae_Merrill

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/12/2002 11:36:23 AM

it truely has the most unintuitive interface i've ever seen in a music app.


actually, I have found it to be sleek and easy to use, simple. The Sample browser on the left is alot easier than S.F.'s explorer window, and the step sequencer is all it has to be.

Im not putting down ACID, as It is truly a revolutionary product and I still use it for Jingles, and other loop based productions.

However, for sample based song composition, for Mangling loops beyond belief, as well as automating just about EVERY parameter available in 99 percent of all its instruments, Vsti, Dxi, AND fruity-particular ones, for a simple MIDI editor with Quantize and groove options, and EASY song interfaces, Fruity is the king. Not just for european beatheads either.

www.fruityloops.com

When fruity supports Multiple Time sigs, it will synce with Acid Nicely... Now only if we could get it to synce to vegas.
http://www.mp3.com/Jae_Merrill

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:8/12/2002 11:51:24 AM

There's one thing everyone's seem to miss the boat on as far as the whole Fruity vs. ACID Pro thing goes...

24-bit. Hello?

Don't mean to rock the boat, but if this is supposed to be a pro app, where's the 24-bit?

And please spare me the "you don't need 24-bit, 16-bit is fine" bulls--t. 24-bit's been a standard for a while now.

You can use Fruity within ACID Pro 4.0 after all. Fruityloops Full does act as a VSTi...

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: SAP

Date:8/12/2002 12:03:09 PM

Fruityloops unintuitive? What is unintuitive about X0X programming- it is the simpliest way to program that there is. That is how fruity is modeled. Anyway, I see no reason that you are dissing either program- Both are good and both have their strengths.

What is the deal with all of these software snobs that think that their preference is best and other suck?? If it was because one of the programs were buggy and unreliable that is one thing, but come on- both fruity and ACID are stable solid and cool. This is the most pointless arguement ever...

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/12/2002 12:34:56 PM

I know what you guys mean about FL being unintuitive. It
doesn't use the same UI conventions. When I first tried it
a year or so ago, I was somewhat put off by it as well. It
just looked confusing. But this time I had a reason to
figure it out and now I know how it works and it couldn't
be simpler.

It just works like a drum machine. You've got patterns that
make up song sections and you've got the song which is
made of patterns. Though it's weird that it works that way
it is incredibly simple once you get used to it.

The patterns can be made of are based on the step sequencer
of old and can include synth riffs, drum machine parts or
high quality tempo matched sample loops.

It took me about 45 minutes to figure out what they were up
to which is long for me. But once I had it it turned out to
be really really fun.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: ATP

Date:8/12/2002 12:44:06 PM

let me try to make myself a little bit more clear :

i'm not dissing Fruity. actually i think it's amazing what you can do with the program. but i stand by my point that the GUI is a pain in the ass. i'm simply not willing to spend a year learning the ins and outs of that program. with ACID this came much more naturally, because it's a very intuitive and easy to learn program. but that doesn't mean i think Fruity sucks on the creative department. IF you know how to operate it i'm sure you can do many great things with it.

but as has been stated, Fruity should be able to run in ACID4 as a VSTi, so i might pursue a PhD in Fruity Loops after all. ;)

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: anon

Date:8/12/2002 1:30:59 PM

Again, I'm going to second ATP. I definitely wasn't trying to be a "software snob" about Fruity. God knows I get enough flack on other sites for saying that I use Acid Pro. But I personally don't get along with Fruity's interface and I personally can do things quicker and easier in Acid with better end results. But to each their own, ya know?

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: ped

Date:8/12/2002 2:31:05 PM

If you look at FL features and what you can do with it, it blows Acid pro away but as it was stated many times the interface is less intuitive and you probably will need more then 45 mins to figure it out IMHO.

Maybe you need to be europeen to figure it out ;) no wonder the best looping beats come from there since the 80's: most probably a bunch of beat junkies got together and created FL

Maybe SoFo can buy out the FL company and improves FL interface huh? ahh well wishful thinking from time to time doesn't hurt.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/12/2002 2:55:58 PM

There's one thing everyone's seem to miss the boat on as far as the whole Fruity vs. ACID Pro thing goes...

24-bit. Hello?

Don't mean to rock the boat, but if this is supposed to be a pro app, where's the 24-bit?

And please spare me the "you don't need 24-bit, 16-bit is fine" bulls--t. 24-bit's been a standard for a while now.

You can use Fruity within ACID Pro 4.0 after all. Fruityloops Full does act as a VSTi...

Iacobus


True, true, it supports only 16 bit samples...

But it supports Vsti, like Battery, which uses 24 bit samples, and fruity renders files that are 24 bit...which is really the important thing.

So it DOES give you 24 bit, but unfortunatly you cant use 24 bit samples directly into fruity. Im sure this will change.

Anyway, I dont see many 24 bit loops.... except I think the discrete drums series...
otherwise, as far as samples, I use kontakt within Fruity, so I dunno.

good point tho. Glad to see everyone being constructive.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/13/2002 1:07:32 AM

Actually I didn't even know FL was only 16 bit
until you pointed it out. I record in 24 bit
always and will have to go over to their forum
and bitch I guess.

I have to say though, this is not a deal breaker
for me. I only really need it to loop drums and
percussion and almost ALL of my loops are 16 bit
anyway.

As for the "pro" thing, I am a professional composer
and musician, as in that's how I make my living, and
that never stopped me from using Acid.

Subject:RE: Solution To The

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/13/2002 11:22:23 AM

remember tho, it does render in 24 bit, well 32 bit float.... and that makes for better quality when adding recorded tracks.