Subject:Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Posted by: kraznet

Date:7/31/2002 11:52:31 AM

Having used Logic Audio for 8yrs (first on the Mac and then the PC) the announcement that Emagic were stopping development for Windows users came as a body blow! OK Logic didn't suddenly stop working on July 1st and neither will it on Sept 30th when they will officially cease development. But its very discouraging when you find out that the company you have put your hard earned cash into for so long (software and hardware) and your trust as well, abandons you in such an offhanded way. So it’s natural to look elsewhere for a replacement. Many Logic Windows users jumped ship more less straight away,taking up the tempting cross-grade offers of Sonar and Cubase SX.I even admit I tried out a demo of Sonar and was quickly disillusioned and as for Cubase SX I felt it would be a backward step having moved over from Cubase Atari in 1994 to Logic Mac. (I cross-graded to Logic Windows in 1999 because I discovered the joy of building my own pc's). Since then I have bought Acid Pro 3 ,Video Vegas 3 and Soundforge 5 and I just love using these apps. They are very intuitive,don't impede the creative process and are a pleasure to work with. Now with the imminent arrival of Acid 4 and the announced features,I may well have found the perfect new home.Here's hoping!!
Kraznet

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: CDM

Date:7/31/2002 12:19:31 PM

I think you'll find that to be the case...

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:7/31/2002 12:27:16 PM

Just be prepared for no ReWire, no sync/co-rendering with any other app, no audio multitracking, no plug-in standards (VSTi-only), no full midi spec, no notation, no imbedded synths or samplers and no drum module. But outside of that, it's FABULOUS!

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: DaSoundGuy

Date:7/31/2002 12:43:40 PM

One thing about company loyalty: it doesn't exist. When a product is not or no longer selling in enough volume to justify it's development and maintenance expenses + a profit, it is axed. Regardless of public or private ownership. The only safety is in numbers. While the numbers last. I honestly hope Emagic's numbers last.

I've been a long Emagic supporter (since the Atari) and never went the mac route (and probably never will). I also use Sonic Foundry products, and while I'm sure Acid 4 will be a great leap forward for many (including myself), it will also fall short of what has been developed in Logic over the last decade, especially in the MIDI department. Also, I doubt we'll ever see score writing in Acid, which as a musician is integral to my workflow, and the primary reason I started on the Emagic bandwagon so many years ago (in fact, I bought the Atari STE BECAUSE I wanted to run Notator, not the other way round).

Ultimately, as I mentioned indirectly in another post on these boards, all of Acid's new features and Vegas' multitrack features would have to be married to make an app that could begin to be on par with what Logic is capable of today.

Meanwhile, I can do without score-writing for 3/4 of my work: I just hope SF gets the MTC/Midi Clock sync rock solid between Acid and Vegas!

DSG

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: pwppch

Date:7/31/2002 7:54:38 PM

I killed the BS and hate stuff.

Don't do it again, or I will delete it again.

This goes for everybody, not just "he who cannot be named".

Peter

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:7/31/2002 7:54:52 PM

hey maruuk, what instrument plugins do you need that are Dxi???

just wondering... dreamstation?

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:7/31/2002 7:58:25 PM

sorry, if that was me.

I didnt mean to offend anyone.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:7/31/2002 8:32:00 PM

Can't we just all get along? I swear, I have never insulted or attacked anyone in this forum unsolicited. And never will. So thee who casts the first stone deserves to get stoned. Or something like that. I'll stick to software if everyone else will. But this is not a SoFo booster forum, it's a frank discussion of the product designed to be helpful to users, and let the chips fall where they may. Personal attacks have no place in here, because if you start it, it'll get finished.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: timoheil

Date:8/1/2002 12:56:32 PM

>>>I felt it would be a backward step having moved over from Cubase Atari in 1994 to Logic Mac<<<

You should consider the fact that Cubase SX has not very much to do with the "old" Cubase. It's a completely new application, based on the Nuendo code.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/1/2002 1:39:36 PM

I love Acid. It's one of the best apps I've
ever used. At what it does. Looping. But I
don't know anyone who takes Acid seriously
as a full DAW app. This is not a criticism.
It's just a different feature set and the
new features announced in 4.0 don't seem to
change that. Of course 4.0 isn't even out yet
so it's hard to judge.

But based on the info I do have, it appears
that 4.0 will offer a few new tools for midi
etc.. but will still be Acid. We'll see.

I personally think that if SF is trying to
steal the DAW market with Acid then they're
making a mistake. They should have done it
with a new app and left Acid for looping.

It would take a massive effort to create a
app to compete with Sonar, CSX or Logic. I'm
not saying it can't be done but from what I
can tell that's not what 4.0 is gonna do.

So without Rewire, we can't integrate Acid
into our current DAW rig - and without the
full DAW features we can't replace our DAW's
with Acid.

So where would that place Acid in the
production market? DJ's?

The lack of Rewire integration has me looking
at the new VSTi version of Fruity Loops as
the solution to SF's misunderstanding of how
proffesional composers want to use their product.

Of course there's the market of non-pro users
who don't actually compose or produce for a
living and just enjoy rearranging other peoples
music with their SF loop CD's. I'm not knocking
it. It is really fun. My girlfriend has little
Acid songs she's done.

But this seems inconsistent with with the new "pro"
features of 4.0 such as ASIO and plugin automation.
So it seems that SF are making a half-ass effort to
turn Acid into a DAW. If so then this is absurd.

Unless there's a whole lot of features that haven't
been announced yet, Acid is not a serious contender
for a proffessional DAW app. Sorry.

But hey, I can't wait to try 4.0 out. Maybe it will
be the thing I've been looking for in a DAW. I certainly
hope so - because it's NOT the thing I was looking for
in a looping app.

TD

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Spirit

Date:8/1/2002 6:03:24 PM

Yes, Acid4 doesn't have Rewire and a few people are unhappy. Others need to be told what Rewire is since they don't know or care.

Please try to get over it and stop posting the same stuff over and over in different guises. This has already been discussed to death.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/1/2002 8:13:26 PM

Every forum seems to have resident trolls who
do nothing but start flame wars and spew
negativity. But THIS forum has a "Ignore This User"
feature. Cool.

Dude I tried to be nice to you when you were copping an
attitude on another thread. As an Acid owner I have as
much right to voice my opinion about Acid as any other.
And you have the right to skip it if it bores you or
voice your own dissenting views.

You do not have a right to talk to people from behind
your computer in a way that you never would in person.

So guess what? You've just lost one set of ears for
your opinions.

PLONK

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/1/2002 8:57:27 PM

oh god... such a drama it is, Music creation in the hands of children.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:8/1/2002 9:19:20 PM

So there's a mixed reaction to 4.0. Some users are happy with the new features as they really concentrate on Acid as a looper, and weren't looking to hook up--they don't even own any other apps to hook up to, or, they are into the separate pot cooking scenario. Then a mildly disgruntled mid-group that's disappointed in the lack of an audio engine upgrade, full midi and ReWire, or an equivalent--they would have liked it but it's not essential and will get into VSTi and midi editing. Then a third group of more professional users that finds the lack of a trans-app hookup path unacceptable. They will either blow off Acid for true integration and interconnectivity elsewhwere, or stay in camp and fight for Acid to become a full pro-spec app.

Remember, those folks who want to keep Acid simple have a great point, Acid bulging with windows and goofy icons and tiny buttons sparking an interface war is not what anybody wants, though feature-rich it may be. That's the beauty of ReWire, it let's Acid be Acid, and you just hook up whatever app you want to complete your sound. So if SoFo goes the proprietary route and builds their own ReWire clone, they really need to get everybody else on board. Just hooking up to Vegas Video is not going to get you graintable synths, Orkestra Refills, incredible drum modules and all the other goodies in the Propheads/Cakewalk world. ReWire is just one way to go. We don't care how they do it, just so they do it.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Spirit

Date:8/2/2002 12:05:03 AM

Fair enough Maruuk. Agree completely.

But our friend Deville will very soon be looking at long, empty threads if that's all it takes to upset him ! I don't flame or troll anyone as regulars here well know.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/2/2002 12:57:20 AM

ACID is not a DAW. It can do some DAW type things, but there was never any intent on making it a DAW or a DAW replacement.

Peter

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Mus

Date:8/2/2002 6:07:14 AM

> ACID is not a DAW

I like Acid a lot. Having tried out Sonar XL I can see that Acid is indeed the best looping tool around. Sonar has some advantages in that you can have different loops on the same tracks, whereas the number of tracks in Acid can get out of hand. However, even some of Sonar's midi implementation is rubbish - whoever heard of having to stop the sequencer to edit a midi event list or a track view that glitches when editing midi sequences?

But there is frustration that SoFo has three different applications with periodic demands for upgrades on all three. I've put up with MTC sync problems between apps for the last four years and really want something more integrated. I guess Sonar is closest at the moment but I'm kind of using it reluctantly since a lot of features, apart from Acid looping, and the GUI, aren't even close to Logic.

M

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/2/2002 9:17:16 AM

The fundamental concept of ACID has not changed, and there is no intention on changing its fundamental purpose or utility. ACID is as ACID does.

We are firm believers in tools that do what they do very well. We don't buy into the kitchen sink approach. Focus on the tools purpose and strong point. This makes for a better tool. Trying to be everything to everybody is just not the right thing to do all the time.


ACID is the best at what it does. If we try to make it more than ACID, then it becomes less than ACID and it looses its focus.

This, we know, is not the popular trend of having one tool be a jack of all trades and a master at none.

The ACID + Vegas + Forge hybrid is a different product that SF doesn't produce. We know very well that we need tighter integration between our tools and third party tools. While we try to address issues and users requests, it is not always possible to address everything for every release. We have to stay the course of what ACID was/is and how it we can progress its features to meet needs with in the scope of its basic utility and purpose.

Peter

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Mus

Date:8/2/2002 10:01:21 AM

That's fair enough Peter. Still frustrating though :-( Let them eat Cake!

M

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: waynegee

Date:8/2/2002 11:08:04 AM

EXCELLENT POST. There will be those who can't/don't/or won't understand it but I think you could not (nor should not) say it any better. I think you are 100% correct and I stand behind SoFo's decision. More power to you.

W-

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:8/2/2002 12:10:11 PM

Which is exactly why a hookup utility like ReWire is so essential. Let Acid be Acid and hook up whatever you need for your project. VSTi's can't do multitrack audio, or provide entre to the monster Reason sound engine or the constellation of imbedded drum modules and sequencing/arpegiators that come free in most apps now. A lot of us have already invested in these tools but still want to keep the elegant looping aspects of Acid intact and dynamic in a co-rendering environment.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/2/2002 1:31:39 PM

ACID + Vegas + Forge

Umm.. NO ONE is asking for this... did you hear it?? I didnt. please get this out of your head (as you and others keep saying this..) and stop making it such a dramatic exaggeration.

all that is being asked for is inteconnectivity, which is totally different, or Just one more notch of Multitrakcing support in ACID.(OVERDUBS!) thats it. No wave editing, no video scoring or filters, no CD burning, no bloat.

Understand?

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/2/2002 1:40:04 PM

We are firm believers in tools that do what they do very well. We don't buy into the kitchen sink approach. Focus on the tools purpose and strong point. This makes for a better tool. Trying to be everything to everybody is just not the right thing to do all the time.


True true, but as far as the tools analogy, what happens when youre in someones fixing there sink and you only have one tool on your belt(ACID) then you realize you have to continue work with another (VEGAS). you have to metaphorically get out of the house, go into the truck, get the new tool, put the old one back, go back in and start working. What if you didnt adjust the part of the sink you are working on (THE MIX OF THE SONG) properly??? you have to go outside again, get the old tool (ACID) put the other one back(VEGAS) and adjust it. The process annoyingly and painfully repeats itself until you lose alot of time and money.

Wouldnt it be easier to have an assistant to carry both tools (REWIRE or some other Similar interconnectivity)

Or at least be able to have a tool that can do both, but simple enough to carry around in a tool belt without falling over?

I see this as a NO_CONTEST issue, but likely that is because I am not a software developer, I am a musician. Even so, I feel that this is too good an oppurtunity for sofo to pass up... other apps will begin to be more efficient, they will get better at looping... ACID is the king, but the all in one (simple) solution WILL come out....


I for one, am not asking for a bloated program like SONAR or CUBASE SX. But At least a little nudge in the Multitrack department.

then it WOULD be an all-in-one solution, but whats so bad about that when you have IMHO one of the best teams of software developers I can think of working on it!!! you will make it Simple, not bloated. I will continue to use S.F's products. But I will be alot happier with them when they are more integrated. I feel this issue has been beaten to death and I see no justification to the nay-sayers reasoning.
Im not gonna be annoying tho.

Alll in all, I will support Sonic Foundry as long as they keep doing what they are doing. But I feel that no further advancement in this regard would dissapoint me.
I dunno about anyone else, you can stick with it for as long as you want, Im not criticizing anyone here...

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/2/2002 1:44:24 PM

ACID is the best at what it does. If we try to make it more than ACID, then it becomes less than ACID and it looses its focus...

Why not stick with version 1.0 then?

what about all the amazing features that have come out since then... surely, REWIRE and a little better multitrack support is not a big deal.....

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/2/2002 3:44:31 PM

I for one am really glad to hear this. Thanks for clarifying.
Acid is the best at what it does and it's always a pleasure
to use it. I use Sonar which has a similar loopin ability
and I STILL build my loops in Acid and transfer them over.
That's how much better it is for me. Cause it sure should
be easyer to just do it in Sonar.

But thanks for alleviating my concerns over the direction
you're taking the product. Far too often I see companies
make goofy decisions and ruin a perfectly good product. I
think Cool Edit, with it's proprietary loop format, is a
good example.

I sould add, I am excited about some of the new features
in 4.0. The time sig thing looks promising. Although I
just did a 7/8 track without a glitch. And the effect
automation sounds cool.

But I for one have no use for VSTi's and midi in Acid. But
hey, maybe I can find a use for that too. Especially if I
can export midi tracks as easily as loops.

And as for Rewire, I've allready cast my vote so maybe I'll
pop back in every month or two to wave my "Say Yes to Rewire"
sign around for a bit. :)

Tocque Deville

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Tocque_Deville

Date:8/2/2002 3:49:30 PM

Well put.

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/3/2002 10:53:12 AM

No offense, but I have heard the implied impending doom themes for the last 5 years. Looks to me like we have survived all the "you better do this or you will be out of business" comments....

We really do know what you want, and we have a plan. Doing it right takes time. Adding a feature or technology with out considering its ramifications or use and to merely add another bullet item to the box is bad engineering.

When ACID 1/2 was released we were blasted for not having MIDI.
When ACID 3 was released, we were blasted for not having softysnths, and automation, ,etc, etc
ACID 4 is announced and we get hell for something new.

Yawn.... No matter what ANY software company does, there will always be those users who feel slighted. This is the industry.

You will just have to trust us.

Peter

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/3/2002 10:58:15 AM

I never said that ReWire was a bad thing. We know that integration is important. I met with the ReWire guys at NAMM and actually have had the SDK for sometime before that. It is very straight foward technology.

I will repeat myself ONE MORE TIME. We made a choice based upon the needs of the many. ReWire did not fit into that. We have only so many resources to develope products. We have to make choices.

Multitrack is not ACID's model. ACID has a one file to one track association. Changing this would be a complete re-write of ACID and take away its purpose. It would be a different product.

Perhaps a new tool that is ACID/Vegas/MIDI Sequencer all rolled into one. How many of thes things already exist though? They are all over the place in there functionality and approach to problems. Yuck!

Peter

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/3/2002 1:02:30 PM

I trust ya!

I love Sonic foundry!!

Please dont think Im trying to be a jerk!!

I cast no doom and gloom here!

Subject:RE: Acid 4 could be the perfect new home for us Logic refugees

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/3/2002 1:05:21 PM

sorry, m8 I still dont see why you can put the Multitrack thing in there, I really hope either rewire is implemented in Vegas AND acid, or some sort of intercompany rewire-ish solution,but I for will not beat a dead horse, and I will concentrate on abusing the ACID beta with Vstis to find bugs!!!

lol

you guys still kick arse!

thanks!

Subject:thanks peter

Reply by: Jacose

Date:8/3/2002 1:09:23 PM

Perhaps a new tool that is ACID/Vegas/MIDI Sequencer all rolled into one. How many of thes things already exist though? They are all over the place in there functionality and approach to problems. Yuck!

youre right youre right, But the reason I asked for it over and over again is beacuse you guys are so damned good at what you do I figured you would pull it off like never done before and it would be amazing!!!!

Thats really the reason I keep asking... you people really know what youre doing.. and criticizm I may have of you is because I think youre so awesome!!!! He Who reproves you loves you right????