Subject:ACID 4 and OPT

Posted by: pwppch

Date:7/31/2002 1:55:26 PM

There seems to be a lot of questions regarding the Yamaha OPT standard that ACID 4 supports. Here is a link that will give you some background on this technology.

http://www.yamahasynth.com/pro/opt/index.html

Peter

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: Mus

Date:7/31/2002 4:47:17 PM

I wonder if the Europeans will support it? Cubase SX hasn't implemented it yet. It would be interesting to see if Emagic got behind it, given their vested interest in SoundDiver. Even though they are Mac only, their support would lead to more OPT module development.

Speaking of SD I was disappointed that the OPT SDK wasn't some kind of 4GL which would generate the C++ code, something like SoundDiver adaptations which users could develop. These are way more efficient in size than Cake's clunky StudioWare or even Logic's environments, which can soon get out of hand sizewise.

I haven't read through the full Yamaha SDK yet but it seems to leave development open more to commercial third-parties or the manufacturers of synths themselves, which means that a lot of older/current kit will never get supported.

At least knocking something up in SoundDiver was relatively easy. Ah well early days, I guess. Perhaps it's time to learn C++.

M

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: spiral_scratch

Date:7/31/2002 11:02:17 PM

i assume that your raising the subject of Acid4 and OPT as a unique thread rather than burying it in the middle of the recent flame wars indicates that you believe this feature to be reasonably important.

It looks my earlier hope that Acid v4 would somehow be implemented as a shell client OPT application with looping, effects and automation thrown in as plug-ins is not going to happen...yet. So, can we at least assume a full implementation of an OPT client (panels, processors and views) with Acid v4?

If my understanding of OPT is correct, just about any extensibility to Acid should then be programmible....certainly midi-based hard (and soft) synth editors and librarians, piano rolls, programmable arpeggiators etc. Heck, if you were one of the three people in the world who understood Direct Music Objects it looks to me that it would even be possible to create a Rewire wrapper program!

Your bet is that OPT will take off. Like Mus, my programming skills are dusty (although I have just bought a book on using VB with COM!). If you haven't already done it, might I suggest that someone throws together at least a list of OPT plug-ins that could be used with Acid (errr....1 at the moment I think): or even better, some spark brighter than I knocks up a really simple arpeggiator or similar plug-in to show the possibilities.

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/1/2002 12:38:40 AM

ACID 4 will support Level 1 and Level 3.

Technically we support Level 2, but we are not exposing the UI. Why? Nothing to test against. There are no third party OPT plugs available other than the Yamaha Motif Panel. This does not bode well for stability issues.

Not every extensibility. It is really more of a one way street in the the OPT plug talks to the host in MIDI basically. If the host doesn't understand what the plug is telling or the context of the host to the plugin is not "global" then things like start/stop/rew etc would only work in a limited sense.

The model for MIDI in ACID is basically a ACID MIDI track is a sequence. Regardless of how much data is in that track - a single bar of snare hits or a 20,000 note masterpiece - it is only one track in ACID. The one file to ACID track still holds. OPT does not extend this.

Bascially an ACID MIDI track is a sequence. OPT provides the editing tools for this sequence. You are editing the file with which you then paint ACID Events with in an ACID track.

We, and Yamaha, are hopefull that the third party interest will begin with the release of ACID 4. I know that SONAR is not far away to a full fledge OPT support. This should make things even brighter for OPT.

Even if it doesn't take off. For ACID the ability for SF to extend MIDI editing and external hardware integration is a plus for the users.

Peter

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: spiral_scratch

Date:8/1/2002 7:18:39 AM

Thanks for the reply, Peter.

oops. looks like I was even further from the target than I thought.

I think I understand the model now though, and even as a first stab it opens up the app to a lot of (midi-track) possibilities. I'll be interested to see if you have implemented these new effects bus tracks as midi tracks...

Lets hope that OPT takes off and you start midi-fying other parts of the UI (e.g. transport) and maybe even moving things like tempo into a master midi track.

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/1/2002 11:16:10 AM

I think I understand the model now though, and even as a first stab it opens up the app to a lot of (midi-track) possibilities. I'll be interested to see if you have implemented these new effects bus tracks as midi tracks...
<<<

FX bus tracks as MIDI tracks? I don't follow....

The FX buses in the mixer have a counter part in the main track view. The point of these "bus tracks" is to permit you to draw volume/gain envelopes and to draw DX Show plug in automation envelopes.

I don't see how MIDI relates...

>>
Lets hope that OPT takes off and you start midi-fying other parts of the UI (e.g. transport) and maybe even moving things like tempo into a master midi track.
<<
ACID's main time line is the master tempo map. There is no concept of a Master MIDI track at the ACID level. Each ACID MIDI track has a "condutor track" like a traditional sequencer would, but since ACID's tempo map is the master, any tempo information in the MIDI file is ignored (except for the first one, which you can use to set ACID's main tempo from.)

You have to keep the ACID MIDI model in mind. ACID is not monolithic sequencer like a Cubase or SONAR. It is a media "paint program". You give it a media file(wave or MIDI) and then "paint" events. MIDI files are treated no differently than wave loops/oneshots/diskbase data in this model.

Each ACID MIDI track is a "sequence". It can be a simple one bar drum loop with 4 notes or a twenty track composition with thousands of notes and controller events. In the end you still "paint" the data in your ACID MIDI track. The big thing is that you can now create and edit the MIDI data you "paint" with.

Peter

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: spesimen

Date:8/1/2002 12:15:39 PM

can you post contact info or download info for where we can get the SDK?

i've poked around on yamaha's site and emailed their opt-support address but not heard a thing.

are they allowing 3rd party individuals to do development or is it required to be part of a more official company-oriented thing?

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: spesimen

Date:8/1/2002 12:17:49 PM

>>FX bus tracks as MIDI tracks? I don't follow....

>>The FX buses in the mixer have a counter part in the main track view.
>>The point of these "bus tracks" is to permit you to draw volume/gain
>>envelopes and to draw DX Show plug in automation envelopes.

>>I don't see how MIDI relates...

i think maybe the question is, are those envelopes implemented as sequences of midi controller events or something along those lines?

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: Mus

Date:8/1/2002 1:09:19 PM

spesimen,

You should hear back from the opt-support guy in Japan eventually. He'll send you a CD when you sign and fax the non-disclosure/license agreement.

M

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: spiral_scratch

Date:8/1/2002 8:14:31 PM

thanks spesimen, that is what I was trying to ask. The answer would appear to be no.

If I was a mean-spirited sort of guy I could press on with the thread and argue that just because you have midi everywhere doesn't mean that you have a monolithic sequencer: I see no harm in the possibility of managing a humble media paint program with midi commands.

However I'm not. So I won't.

I'm just going to be quiet and wait, 'cos I suspect that this release of Acid is going to be very worthwhile.

p.s. what is 'loop cloning'? Some sort of Recycle possibly? :-)

Subject:RE: ACID 4 and OPT

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/2/2002 1:08:09 AM

Correct. Envelopes are implemented "natively". We don't use MIDI for automation of envelopes.

When I was speaking of the monolithic sequencer, I was refering to creating musical data, not app control or other such things. I am aware of what MIDI can be used for beyond making music. ACID's MIDI is about music creation, not control. If you want more, than ACID is not the tool for you.

ACID is also not an "instrument" to be played with MIDI.

These are all very interesting things to do with MIDI data. It is not what ACID is about.

Peter