|
Subject:No Rewire ????
Posted by: Tocque_Deville
Date:7/29/2002 10:17:20 PM
I hate to have my first post to this forum be so negative but...WTF? There is no feature as important to me and EVERYONE I know that uses Acid. And I'm not talking about Rewiring to Reason. I mean Rewire to Cubase or Sonar. Do Sonic Foundry Staff or Developers read this forum? |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:7/29/2002 10:44:03 PM
They do but the message from dozens and dozens of users over lo these many months did not penetrate their pointy little heads: 7 OUT OF 10 ACID USERS DEMAND REWIRE!!! Cakewalk, Emagic, MOTU all got the message...WHY NOT SoFo??? |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Tocque_Deville
Date:7/30/2002 2:39:42 AM
It's so frustrating when a company does something so blatently stupid. Now I wish I had gone to NAMM so I could go to the SF booth and ring someones neck and say, "what were you thinking". grrr idiots >:{} |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Jessariah
Date:7/30/2002 7:21:35 AM
I would be willing to bet that the research was probably a little more extensive than people are giving SF credit for. They obviously chose VSTi over DXi for a reason. They probably chose not to include support for Rewire at this time for a reason as well (no pun intended). I think automated plugins and mixed time signatures are going to make Acid 4 a much more flexible stand-alone mixing tool -- which is its primary purpose, yes? I know that we're putting the dollars down for the product, so what we want has its weight. But I would trust that there is a good reason for what they chose not to pursue this time around. I'm no programmer, but I would be willing to bet that the more "new" things you try to add, the steeper the bug curve is. I'll take 4.0 with its improvements. I think you'd agree that things wouldn't be quite as sweet without it at all. Not trying to start a war here...I just can't understand why some people are so quick to rip apart an app they haven't even seen yet. Just my opinion.... |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: MacMoney
Date:7/30/2002 8:28:45 AM
>Not trying to start a war here...I just can't understand why some people are so >quick to rip apart an app they haven't even seen yet. >Just my opinion.... Hi Jessariah, You hit the nail on the head with one shot! I asked for ReWire too along with other features, But like you said it could be a number of reasons they couldn't make the list. This looks like a totally new Acid with allot of cool features. If they would have added ReWire and no DXi/VSTi or FX automation people would have still been pissed. They are giving more than you have in Acid 3! Let's try it out and if you don't like it move on! I own Sonar XL 2.0 and sill do all my loops in Acid 3, If Acid 4 has DXi/VSTi I'll use Sonar even less. And the DXi over VSTi thing? I thought about that too? Most Soft Synths come in all 3-4 flavors Stand a lone, DXi, VSTi and TDM so that means that my Pro-52, Absynth, FM-7, Battery, Lounge Lizard, Tassman, B4, Kontakt and other like Fruity Loops will ALL work in Acid 4 and now I can try out the VSTi with out a Wrapper that I have with Cubase. FX automation? Now I can use my Waves,Timeworks,PSP, and other to come DX automation, George |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: GP40
Date:7/30/2002 8:45:49 AM
Hey, where can I go to learn more about Rewire. Never used it and want to know what the noise is all about. Thanks. |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Ted_H
Date:7/30/2002 10:37:55 AM
If you search this forum for "Rewire", you'll see that it really hasn't been mentioned too much. If it hasn't been mentioned in the forum much, I doubt that too many of you have used the product suggestion form. I can't reinforce this enough - make sure that you use the product suggestion form if there is a feature you want to see in our products. Using the suggestion form does get to our product managers, and they do add features based on your input. The form is here: http://www.sonicfoundry.com/support/productsuggestion.asp Ted |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: bluemusic
Date:7/30/2002 10:44:30 AM
www.propellerheads.se And for anyone thinking they're tied to Steinberg: They're not anymore and have not been for a while now. (Making me hope any qualms the Props would have about adding certain features in Reason will go away. They're free to roam as they like! ;) |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Spirit
Date:7/30/2002 11:08:49 AM
VSTi capability will give us integrated access to HUNDREDS of great instruments and apps ranging from Kontakt and Reaktor to FruityLoops and DR008 and all the small developers instruments. A huge advance ! It will be superb ! Another MIDI sequencing package and a VSTi host is now no longer necessary. And add ASIO and suddenly you've got extremely low latency audio communication with various soundcards and other apps. So please excuse my ignorance - and I realise people feel passionately about this - but exactly what is Rewire useful for other than bringing in channels from Reason ? |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: coldc
Date:7/30/2002 11:27:45 AM
Spirit, people are not asking to bring in channels from Reason. They are asking to bring channels from Acid into Cubase/Sonar. If Acid functioned a VST instrument (not host) or Rewire slave, many people would be very happy indeed. |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Spirit
Date:7/30/2002 11:34:52 AM
Ahh, I understand. But if Acid has ASIO then it should be very straightforward to bring ASIO channels into CubaseVST. |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: bluemusic
Date:7/30/2002 11:38:11 AM
"So please excuse my ignorance - and I realise people feel passionately about this - but exactly what is Rewire useful for other than bringing in channels from Reason ?" Honestly, nothing else. I'd say people want the ReWire thing only because is sometimes gets kind of ugly when ReWire:ing with a host like Cubase VST/SX, Sonar etc. I say sometimes since I've only tried a few times with demos (I don't own Cubase nor Sonar) and don't like the mammoth a simple project turns into when two different apps need to be open at the same time to get things done. Me? I like it better to complete my work in Reason, export to wav and import into Acid. I'm not really against implementing ReWire, it's just that it's not that crucial having it there. But, sure it would be fun and I'd probably use it since pure audio tracks is what I'm missing most in Reason. Kind of a specialty-request yes, but there are a few Reason users out there. That's probably why other sequencers (which I am well aware Acid is not) have implemented it. |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: coldc
Date:7/30/2002 11:55:23 AM
I don't think ASIO does that, I could be wrong, but it is a driver type that reduces latency from virtual instruments to soundcard output. RE: Rewire, People seem to be asking for two different things - 1) A rewire host to connect to Reason. 2) A rewire slave to connect to Cubase/Sonar. Option 2 is best for me. |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:7/30/2002 12:00:16 PM
Option 2 is what I asked for prior also[but I wanted it to slave to Vegas!!!!] |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:7/30/2002 12:38:03 PM
Many, many, many users have been clamoring for ReWire for a long time. For Ted H to blithely observe "I don't think many people mentioned it..." is total BS. Let's face it folks, SoFo threw us a few peanuts here, and peanuts are good, we like peanuts, but how are we going to render with Reason, Cubase or Sonar now??? Answer: we're not, we can't, because SoFo dropped the ball in the end zone on 4th down and it's Game Over. The rest of the world that already has ReWire and VST and DXi and full audio tracks and midi specs and included synths and samplers FOR FREE will continue co-rendering together happily producing professional products while us Acid freaks will continue in our playpen with our little Acid toy that now has one bell, and one whistle on it. Da da goo goo doo doo. |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: dhanjit
Date:7/30/2002 1:16:47 PM
Ted - Rewire has come up a lot, as SonicSCS acknowledged here http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=1&MessageID=102149 |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:7/30/2002 1:35:03 PM
DOH! Caught! |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: spydakb
Date:7/30/2002 2:26:19 PM
"Using the suggestion form does get to our product managers, and they do add features based on your input." Oh....like CD Arch & Sound Forge...!!!! -KB |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Ted_H
Date:7/30/2002 2:37:41 PM
I stand corrected. I should have upped the number of search results to display per page (D'oh!). However, I will stand by my statement. If there is something you want to see, please use the suggestion form. We really do use your suggestions. I'm not going to start another CD Architect argument... Ted |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: spydakb
Date:7/30/2002 5:29:08 PM
There's nothing to argue....as we all know where SoFo stands regarding CD Arch... Despite the product sugguestion form. -KB |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Spirit
Date:7/30/2002 6:06:13 PM
Maruuk, I think you're being very harsh. AcidPro4 looks like a HUGE advance and will have virtually every major sequencing feature. I'm sorry that Rewire seems to be the one feature that's most important to you but it's omission in no way makes Acid a toy app. To many users (such as myself) it's inclusion or exclusion is totally irrelevant. If Rewire is that important to you perhaps it's time to look elsewhere ? Out of interest, exactly what are you wanting Rewire for ? Is it the only way you can integrate your set-up ? And just because SoFo have a product suggestion form doesn't mean they're obliged to follow every suggestion ! That said, SoFo is the most responsive company I've ever seen, the way they particpate in this forum and answer questions is quite exceptional and another reason why I'm such a SoFo fan. Perhaps a few well-directed emails to SoFo and the P-Heads might shed some more light on the Rewire issue . . . |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Darmok
Date:7/30/2002 8:35:30 PM
Wow, you must be relying heavily on having an audience ignorant of the facts. Because that's the only way your words would have any weight. They're not...and you don't. Cliff |
|
Subject:Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Tocque_Deville
Date:7/30/2002 9:04:55 PM
Rewire enables sample accurate syncronizatiom to you DAW. It has nothing to do with the Outs although that's nice too. It simply means that you could build your drum tracks in Acid and instead of having to export them into your DAW you simply sync Acid up. Duh |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Spirit
Date:7/30/2002 9:30:18 PM
Well call me stupid, but if you're building up your drumtracks in Acid where exactly else do you want them to go ? And since they're already in your PC what's there to "export to your DAW" ? If your drumtrack is built with a VSTi instrument it's already in Acid: trigger it via MIDI or render to wav. If it's an external hardware unit or a DSP-based non-VSTi instrument then you can sync it with MIDI and render it whenever you want using ASIO (depending on the ASIO spec in Acidpro4) What else is there you want to do ? Are you just talking about running another sequencer in perfect sync ? To me that's as friendly as attempting to drive two cars at once. But since Rewire inspires passion I shall not comment any further and risk upsetting anyone ( if I haven't already ). But I do wish you good luck in getting Rewire incorporated in the next cut of AcidPro. |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Jessariah
Date:7/30/2002 11:46:05 PM
Come on, Spirit, we've got well-intentioned people here on a good 'ol witch hunt to bash a product they haven't even looked at yet. Let's not try to ruin it by injecting facts or reason... I would still like somebody to explain to me why Rewire is so crucial? Just how does it magically make life so much easier? I mean, if I'm tracking, I use Sonar. If I'm looping, I use Acid. If I'm doing MIDI work, I use Sonar. If I want to incorporate some MIDI work or tracking into a loop project, I create it in Sonar, send it to Sound Forge, then bring it in to Acid as an ACIDized wave. I realize, having never used Rewire, that I'm shooting blind here -- but I just don't see how something that connects two apps is such a necessity. (Honestly, I would be interested to know what I'm missing when it comes to this topic.) |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:7/30/2002 11:57:32 PM
Ok, I'll say this v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y. SoFo has (apparently intentionally) scattered key pro functions over a number of apps. Such that the user needs to hook them together to sync and render a combination of the joint audio output. Otherwise you'd have to mix to external hardware. But SoFo has decided in their supreme wisdom that we don't need to render quickly, efficiently and with full creative control. They want us to cook in many separate pots, and then jam the goulash into one big pot having pre-mixed many elements. That's nonsense, a complete waste of time, and a loss of creative control on the party of the user. Part two--many users would like to not only sync Acid to Reason, but to Cubase and Cakewalk products, and eMagic products, among others, but also to combine tracks in one mixer for a clean, simple render of all tracks in one swell foop. SoFo doesn't believe that's important to us. Ted H sez, "I don't think I saw many people request that." I don't really get what the 3 posts above are talking about, all I know is that SoFo has severely shortchanged and underestimated the needs of its user base, and left Acid a charming toy with a fresh coat of paint. Two years ago it was a breakthrough semi-pro tool that opened many doors. As of today's announcement, it's a woefully non-competitive product left at the starting gate by an aggressive, savvy, interconnected community of competitor publishers who have done their focus group homework and know not only what pro users want, but what they need. |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Tocque_Deville
Date:7/31/2002 1:09:07 AM
Spirit wrote... "Well call me stupid, but if you're building up your drumtracks in Acid where exactly else do you want them to go ? And since they're already in your PC what's there to "export to your DAW" ?" Hi Spirit, The way I and many others usually work with Acid is to start a song in Cubase or Sonar or whatever and record a pilot track (guitar/vocal etc) then export that to a stereo file and import it into Acid. Then using Acid's really cool looping, create drums and percussion and whatever. Then when you have your drum arrangement done, render out the loop tracks and insert them back into the DAW project. Once in the DAW app the Acid loops can now be mixed with the many other tracks that you can only do in a DAW app. I used Sonar before I switched to Cubase SX and I still did this because the looping in Sonar doesn't compare to Acid's. So what Rewire would do is eliminate the need to render out all the work you did in Acid by allowing you to just sync Acid up to your DAW. Cheers |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Spirit
Date:7/31/2002 1:24:48 AM
Thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean. Obviously MIDI sync isn't good enough ? From what I read, Rewire allows full transport sync and song position between apps which is very handy. I suppose I do slightly similar things in that I do some drum tracks in Fruity then render them and insert into Acid projects. Fruity as a VSTi in Acid solves that problem for me, which is why you want Rewire . . . |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: Tocque_Deville
Date:7/31/2002 1:26:37 AM
Jessariah wrote "I realize, having never used Rewire, that I'm shooting blind here -- but I just don't see how something that connects two apps is such a necessity. (Honestly, I would be interested to know what I'm missing when it comes to this topic.)" Hi Jessariah, Yeah, it took me getting Reason before I saw the light. I had always wanted to sync Acid for the reasons mentioned above but when I first Rewired Reason and Sonar together I almost had an apiphany. Basically what it does is merge the two programs into one monster app. Not only do they syncronize in a way that is not possible with timecode, but you can patch audio busses from one app to the other. This allows you unprecedented flexibility in getting the most out of each program. For example Reason has it's own mixer and it's own effect which are really cool for some stuff. But if I want I can patch one of the sound modules from reason straight into Cubase SX and apply say tube simulation or any of the other dozens of high quality DX or VST effects. Very cool. But the Sync rocks as well. If I was working in Acid and I hit play it would immediatly start SX. If in SX it would start Acid. You can't tell the difference. The main thing though is that I have to use SX for scoring and recording audio. Acid is not going to compete as a full DAW. And Sonar or SX are not going to compete with Acid for looping. So Rewire would effectively be like having your cake and eating it too. Cheers |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: ATP
Date:7/31/2002 4:01:15 AM
like has been explained above, what we want is a way to effectively sync ACID with either Reason, or a sequencer like Cubase. i don't care if that's done using Rewire or whatever, just that's it's done. why do we want this? because it's really a pain making something in Cubase or Reason, having to mix that down, and then import into ACID as a wave file. surely you can see how annoying this method of working is, when for example you decide you want to raise the volume of a pad or violin just a bit more. you will have to remix the arrangement in Cubase, export again, see if it's correct this time, and if not rinse and repeat. not to mention the mastering problems. it's pretty annoying have to master your song in sections, and then hope you mastered each section of tracks properly. if everything is synced, you can change everything on the spot, when you're still in the production stage. it makes creating music much more intuitive, because you're not limited by having to mix down and import certain parts of your song. you can hear every sample straight away, combined in any which way you want it. so, for me, proper synchronization with other sequencers is one of the most crucial elements in ACID. and ACID 4 does not seem to have support for this. if there IS a way to do this properly after all, i'd be glad to hear about it. |
|
Subject:RE: Why I Want Rewire
Reply by: ATP
Date:7/31/2002 4:07:32 AM
btw, don't get me wrong, i think ACID 4 will be a kick ass program. especially since i'm still at ACID 2 (i just didn't like ACID 3 for some reason). so i'm not trying to bash ACID 4 before i've even seen the app. but i would surely liked to have seen a way to sync ACID with another app. oh well ... |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Jacose
Date:7/31/2002 8:45:10 AM
there is a better solution to this: http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=112238&Page=0 lol lol :) :) :) :) |
|
Subject:RE: No Rewire ????
Reply by: Jacose
Date:7/31/2002 8:47:16 AM
Many, many, many users have been clamoring for ReWire for a long time. For Ted H to blithely observe "I don't think many people mentioned it..." is total BS. Let's face it folks, SoFo threw us a few peanuts here, and peanuts are good, we like peanuts, but how are we going to render with Reason, Cubase or Sonar now??? Answer: we're not, we can't, because SoFo dropped the ball in the end zone on 4th down and it's Game Over you know its true, I have heard people requestiong rewire alot, but as far as its value, I dont know???? |
|
Subject:Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: Jacose
Date:7/31/2002 9:00:29 AM
yes, but Vsti is so much more important than rewire, IMO because you have what 3 products that use rewire, reason, Sonar and Cubase SX, well and logic?? But thats dead on windoze anyway. and how many products do we have VSt for? Literally Thousands of effect plugins AND thousands of softsynths. One of which is Fruity Loops, and also, Ableton Live, i believe this is now a vsti instrument, I can see why Sonic foundry went for vsti first.... honestly, rewire also sounds complicated, like one of those things that MAKES sonar and Cubase so complicated...(although truly, I dont know for sure) Im sure when they do implement it, in version 8 or whatever, it will be real smooth, but Im sure its a better choice to choose vst first, as alot more people will be happy with vst than with rewire. sonic foundry really doess alot with each upgrade, and as I have learned, you cant expect everything at once... |
|
Subject:RE: Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: Jessariah
Date:7/31/2002 9:15:33 AM
Okay, I can see why some people want this Rewire support, but there are others who use Acid differently. Can't please them all, I guess. Still, I'd rather deal with limitations than an app that is trying to do too much and is laiden with bugs. BTW, Maruuk, thanks for the v-e-r-y s-l-o-w explanation. I now understand your world perfectly... |
|
Subject:RE: Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: Tocque_Deville
Date:7/31/2002 11:22:10 AM
Hey Jacose, VSTi's are cool and I am pleased with their implentation. But it sounds like your saying that it's a choice between the two. There's no reason not to have both. But one thing you might not understand. Acid 4.0 is only going to support VSTi's. Not VST Plugins. And there are not that many VSTi's available. Not thousands... As for Fruity Loops, I am not aware that it can be used as a VSTi. When this was first posted I got all exited thinking I could use it in Cubase. All I found at their website was that it supports VST within. Not that it can be used as a VSTi. Correct me if I'm wrong. I wish I was. Also Rewire is not complicated at all. In fact it has no user controlled operatations. It works automatically behind the scenes and requires not one thing from the user to work. It sort of magically makes the apps sync up and you never even know it's there. |
|
Subject:RE: Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: Spirit
Date:7/31/2002 11:26:17 AM
Fruity 3.5 is definitely a VSTi |
|
Subject:RE: Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: spesimen
Date:7/31/2002 1:16:18 PM
apt hit the nail on the head. this isn't about just saving the step of having to export from reason into wavs for acid. it's about not having to do that process over and over if you actually spend time tweaking your musical elements from each app. i almost never write a bassline that i don't fine tune and adjust at a later time when more elements are in the mix. having to go back and adjust it without being able to sync to loops in acid (or even hear those parts at all, since sync via the midi router doesn't seem to work) is just annoying. hopefully if the midi sequencing is good, a handful of decent vstis will be able to replace reason in my setup but it's frustrating not having the choice. piano rolls suck for a lot of types of sequencing work, hopefully they at least got a decent grid editor in there or otherwise it's moot.. :/ i'm pretty happy about some of the other new features though. too bad the arbitrary position beatmapper doesn't seem to have made it in either. |
|
Subject:RE: Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: Jacose
Date:7/31/2002 3:01:26 PM
"There's no reason not to have both." oh.. I know...but SoFo has its priorities.... "Acid 4.0 is only going to support VSTi's. Not VST Plugins. And there are not that many VSTi's available. Not thousands..." There are thousands if you look hard enough... ;) NO vst plugins??? thats sort of gay, but the new version of directizer came out, so thats ok. |
|
Subject:RE: Vsti more important than reMire
Reply by: Jacose
Date:7/31/2002 3:03:19 PM
"arbitrary position beatmapper doesn't seem to have made it in either. " I believe that this, Overdubs on audiorecording, and rewire will be NESSECARY for Releae 4.5 or 5.0 |