Subject:Recording

Posted by: GinTonHic

Date:6/12/2002 2:18:02 PM

I have Sound Forge 5.0.

I am trying to record voices with Sound Forge. I keep hearing in the background a sound like : SHHHHHHHHHH.

How can I earase this sound ?

I have tryied to modify my computers recording sound parameters but nothing seems to be working ?

Any tips ?

Thank you.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Edin

Date:6/12/2002 2:38:27 PM

You mean you have noise in the background? Something like a "hiss"?
It may be that your noise is coming from a noisy sound card, and that can't be helped much. You might try to lower the volume for your microphone in Volume Control.
That will lower the noise, as well as your voice, but if you speak a bit louder, the signal to nise ratio should at least be better.
I had many problems recording with a Sound Blaster sound card, and a regular "multimedia" microphone. They are mostly good for some little recording, not for something more serious.
Here is what you can do to improve your S/N (sound to noise) ratio:
1. Lower the recording volume for the microphone (you do this by double clicking on the little speaker icon in the lower right corner, or by going to Start>Programs>Accessories>Entertainment>Volume Control, and then going to Options>Properties, and choose Recording)
2. Use the "Line In" input, instead of the "Microphone" input. The "Line In" input has much lower noise, but it also has a lower amplification. You will need to make or get some kind of a microphone preamp, and connect it to the "Line In" on your sound card. If you have a friend who knows some electronics, he could easily make a preamp for your computer microphone, simply by using an op-amp (he would know).
3. You could also use a better microphone with a preamp, and connect it to the "Line In".
4 The best solution is to buy a good microphone with a good preamplifier, while getting a professional quality sound card, like M-Audio Audiophile 2496 ($150).

All of these solutions are possible depending on your budget. The simpler and cheaper solutions are on the top, going to the not so complex, but more expensive solutions at the bottom.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/12/2002 9:12:35 PM

Here's a tip. Invest in some professional recording classes. Owning Sound Forge, does not give you the automatic knowledge of being a recording engineer and knowing how to properly set levels to get the best signal recorded. It's not as simpe as pluging in a microphone and hitting record. Just like owning Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator, doesn't make you a graphics artist.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/12/2002 9:57:49 PM

Edin gave some very good advice.

I am a radio guy, so voice is the main gig for me.

I use a Marshall MXL 2003 mic ($150) which isn't a Neumann U87, but for the massive difference in cost, the Marshall is probably close enough. If I didn't have my mixer, I would use either an ART Tube MP preamp ($100) or a Behringer Shark ($60). The Shark has some features you don't need, but it is a very clean preamp and has very quiet phantom power, which you would need for the Marshall. These are not expensive items, you can spend as much as you want, but I think these would get you where you want to go. My favorite of the two preamps is the Tube MP, which figures, since it costs a little more.

Other things to consider... is the noise you are hearing "room noise?" If it is, then the problem is different. Damping the noise in a room can be simple, and I have seen times when thousands of dollars thrown at the problem haven't fixed it. Are all motors that are in the room turned off? AC? Are you recording right near the whining hard drive and fan of your computer? These things are pretty quiet in the real world, because we are used to them, but when recording they become extremely loud. Getting away from the computer is the whole reason I bought the Fostex hard disk recorder. It is quieter than a computer.

Use a directional mic (the Marshall is) and work is as close as possible. Use the pop filter ($20) which looks like a wire loop with panty-hose stretched over it. This keeps voice moisture off the mic capsule, and takes some of the plosives out, but not much of the latter. Use the roll-off on the 2003 to help with that.

I also agree with Rednroll, Read, read, read, read...

rich

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Edin

Date:6/13/2002 12:17:30 AM

I agree with Rednroll about learning, but this guy is just trying to get a quick fix for his trouble. I hope my advice helped him. Good thing Rednroll reminded me of peaks. GinTonHic, you need to make sure that your maximum volume isn't "hitting the top", in other words, don't allow clipping to occur. In Sound Forge, you will be safe as long as your volume level is below 0dB, like -3dB, and lower (down to -12dB).
If your peaks are hitting only up to under -12dB, you need to raise the volume a little bit. Don't worry if some things are not clear to you in the beginning, you will learn over some period of time. That's what SF people say in their instructions "start using the product, and then use the help file when you get stuck", because their products are pretty simple and intuitive, while having professional quality at the same time. That's why I like Sonic Foundry's products.
The learning curve would be much greater with most of other software, and the price isn't too high (if you are making money with it, of course).

I hope that Rednroll doesn't have a low opinion of me, although that doesn't matter, but I want to say that I have learned almost everything about electronics, computers and multimedia on my own. Previous knowledge and experience in the field of electronics, (as well as English, which I also learned on my own), helped a lot in learning about computers and multimedia (and other stuff).
The reason why I said all the above, is not to brag about it, but to simply prove that school is not needed for everything, and that you can't learn everything in school. There are some things money can't buy :-)

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:6/13/2002 5:24:32 AM

"SHHHHHHHH" ? Maybe somebody in the next room doesn't like the voices !

;-)

geoff

PS. Check out the gains at various parts of your chain. The majority of the gain should be in your mic preamp (of your mixer ?). Cranking the gain anywhere else to compensate will be boosting the noise from the preamp. You are using a mic preamp, aren't you ? If built in to sound card, chances are it is not very high quality (=noisy).

You could have a bad connection in a mic cable. This can give a similar noise when used with phantom-powered mics.

You could have a SoundBlaster or equivalent crappy soundcard .....

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/13/2002 11:45:13 AM

Hello everybody,

Thanks for your advices. I made a printed copy of all your responses and I am going to do just what you said and see what happens.

My computer is a portable computer (it belongs to my employer). It is a Compaq Evo N600c. It is brand new. It is very possible that the sound card is cheap. Where I work, we can't choose any computer...got to take what the company has decided. Also, it is locked so we cannot install whatever we want.

I write multimedia training courses for customer services. I used to work with a consultant and we never had any problem with the sound. Of course, it was another type of computer. We need basic functions. I record OFF VOICES and also, conversations between customers and a customer service agents.

Anyways, thanks again. I will try what you all suggested and see what happens. I'll keep in touch to tell you how I am doing.

Bye Bye
GinTonHic

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: ATP

Date:6/13/2002 12:04:18 PM

another thing you might try, if the noise you want to get rid of is a constant background noise, barely varying in volume or tone, is to get the Noise Reduction plugin (check out the Sonic Foundty website for that), and search your voice recording for a part where no voice is spoken/sung, but where the background noise is present. select that part, and use the Noise Reduction plugin to filter that particular range out (if you ever need more detailed instructions on this i'd be happy to help you out). this plugin has its limitations, depending on the loudness and spectrum of the background noise, but it might just be good enough for your needs.

good luck. :)

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Edin

Date:6/13/2002 12:25:17 PM

You mean it's a laptop? Then you definitely need to get an external preamplifier, connect the microphone to it, and then connect the output of the preamp to the Line In input on the laptop. It will definitely lower the noise.
Laptops are known to have more noise than the regular desktops, because all the circuitry is tightly packed, so that the noisy circuits, as well as drives are very close to each other, and to the sound circuitry, and that's where you get it.
Even with so much noise around, it is still very possible to get rid of it when putting parts and circuits together, but you have to bear in mind that the main thing the company cares about when making laptop is to make it smaller, lighter, less power consuming, power-packed (many features), etc. They don't really worry too much about the sound quality, unless it is some really high-end laptop made also for those who want to make a nice recording.

But stay with me, here is another thing for laptop:
you can buy a USB sound card (or something like that), which should solve your noise problem. As much as I remember, those things exist, so go ahead and get one. It will probably be the best bang for the buck! You will also save a lot of time, instead of going around and testing all this stuff we told you earlier.
But, the last choice is yours, not ours, it is your problem, after all ;-)

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/14/2002 6:44:41 PM

Hi there,

I worked quite a bit to solve my recording problem.

I finally put down the volume of the mixer, which helped fade the "shhhhhh" sound. But the voice is not that clear. If I try to normalize the sound...the "shhhhhh" comes back again. Also, I tried not to normalize but put the volume (under process) up...the "shhhhh" comes back again.

I am investigating the possibility of getting a USB sound card (which I discoverd really exists). Also, I am going to install Sound Forge on another computer just to see if it sounds better.

Any other good ideas ?

Thank you for your help with this matter.

GinTonHic

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/15/2002 12:57:11 PM

My reference to reading was concerned with you setting your volume controls at the correct position to ensure you are getting a clear signal to the sound card input. As you have found, they where incorrectly set. As a general rule, levels on a mic pre/line in, mixer fader should be set at 12 O'clock or 50%, or if it has a dB setting like a fader....0dB. You need to know how to set up all your faders in the signal chain going to your sound card and the sound card mixer setting when it reaches your computer. Once you are able to do this correctly, then we can narrow it down to other problems. Please describe all the devices your signal is going through to get to your computer in the order the signal goes through and I can better inform you how to set a good level. Microphone type? Mic pre-amp? Mixing board? which outputs of mixing board connected to computer? What type of connector is plugged into the sound cards input, and what type of connector on the other end connected to the mixing board. Do you set levels on your sound card through software mixing section, or just windows mixer section? and what are the settings of the Line IN in the mixer section? These are all important things to know in narrowing down where the source of your problem lies. That's why my first post was so vague, because so was yours. Just getting a good level so the meter reads -3dB is not good enough. You could be adding 20 dB of noise and distortion at a mic input signal and then pulling that level down on the mixer fader, and then boasting it up again at +20 dB again at the windows mixer section and your meters read fine, but what you've done is put the signal your trying to record at the same noise level of all the electronic devices and now you're hearing a lot of "HiSSSS" as your first post described. Setting levels correctly is described in the first chapter of any audio recording text book and it is valuable information that you use every day as an audio engineer. After you learn the rules, then you can learn how to break them and create special effects using noise and distortion.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: dbarry

Date:6/16/2002 10:58:52 PM

Marshal MXL 2003 for $150 ? where? Best I see on the web is a use one for $250
Do you know where I can get a few for $150/ea?
Thanks

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: RiRo

Date:6/17/2002 4:25:10 PM

I get mine on ebay... new in the box.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=884853732

I have not purchased from this particular person, but It is a 2003 with the shock mount, "buy it now" is 149.00.

enjoy!

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/17/2002 7:26:54 PM

Hello,

I am still looking into my problem of background noise. I tried to record without a mircophone. I can hear the same hsssss sound. I will install Sound Forge on my home computer and see how it works. I brough my microphone from the office. So, I gather that if it works properly it is probably my soundcard. I will see...

I'll keep you informed.

Thank you for your good advices.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/18/2002 7:13:35 AM

Good morning,

I tried Sound Forge on my home computer. I do not hear de Hshhhhhhh sound. Could it then be a problem with the sound card on my laptop ?

I checked the different volume controls. Here are their positions (sorry they are in French):

FOR READING :
Contrôle du volume (volume control) : At 3 (from bottom)
Sons wave : (Wave sounds): Almost at 6
Synnthé. SW L : Top (7)
CD audio : 4
Entrée ligne (Line-in) : 6

FOR RECORDING :
Microphone : Top (7)

So...do you see my problem ?

I am going to look into a course on Sound Forge.

Thank you again.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/18/2002 6:38:32 PM

How are you getting the microphone signal to the computer? Are you using a microphone and just plugging into the mic input? Again....the signal chain from mic to the sound card input...and which input?

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/19/2002 9:06:06 PM

Good Evening Rednroll,

I am plugging the microphone into the mic input. I don't understand your second sentence...sorry I am a French Québecer.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/19/2002 9:43:34 PM

Ok, that helps us a lot. You are pluging a mic directly into the mic input of your laptop. That is the reason for you "Hissss" sound. What is the name of the microphone? It sounds to me that you are using a cheap mic setup. The types of microphones that plug directly into a mic input on a laptop are not high quality studio microphones. Also, those microphone inputs on a laptop are very noisy. They are inexpensive mic pre-amps closely surrounded by many electronics that carry data, which make noise in the audio frequencies. This will add additional noise to an already high gain noisy input. With the set up you are currently using, I would be thankful to even be able to understand the audio you are recording, but don't expect a quiet, studio quality sound.

One of the best solutions for recording into the current computer you have would be to buy an external microphone pre-amp and a good studio quality condenser microphone. Then pluging into the "LINE IN" of the computer. This sounds like it might be overkill and too expensive for the results you're trying to achieve.

Another option that might get you by, would be to look into buying an inexpensive "condenser" microphone that plugs directly into the microphone input. These mics will require a battery, but will give a higher output level coming from the microphone, than your current "dynamic" microphone, which has a very low gain. The increase in output from the microphone, should raise the level further away from the noise floor of the mic input and give you better results so that the "shhhhhh" is not as noticeable. What you are doing with my recommendation is increasing the "signal to noise ratio".


Don't expect this translation to be perfect:

Ok, ce aides nous beaucoup. Vous pluging un mic directement dans l'entrée mic de votre laptop. C'est la raison de vous bruit de "Hissss". Quel est le nom du microphone? Il me retentit que vous employez un mic bon marché installé. Les types de microphones qui branchent directement à un mic entré sur un laptop ne sont pas des microphones de studio de haute qualité. En outre, ces entrées de microphone sur un laptop sont très bruyantes. Elles sont les préamplis mic peu coûteux étroitement entourés par les beaucoup de l'électronique qui portent les données, qui font le bruit dans les fréquences sonores. Ceci ajoutera le bruit additionnel à une entrée bruyante de gain déjà élevé. Avec l'installation vous employez actuellement, je serais reconnaissant pour pouvoir même comprendre l'acoustique que vous enregistrez, mais ne m'attends pas à un quiet, bruit de qualité de studio. Un des meilleures solutions pour enregistrer dans l'ordinateur courant que vous avez devrait acheter un préampli externe de microphone et un bon microphone de condensateur de qualité de studio. Alors pluging dans la "LIGNE DANS" de l'ordinateur. Ceci ressemble à de lui pourrait être overkill et trop cher pour les résultats que vous essayez de réaliser. Une autre option qui pourrait vous passer, devrait examiner acheter un microphone peu coûteux d'"condensateur" ce des prises directement dans l'entrée de microphone. Ces le mics exigera une batterie, mais donnera à un résultat plus élevé venir de niveau du microphone, que votre microphone "dynamique" courant, qui a un gain très bas. L'augmentation du rendement du microphone, devrait élever le niveau plus loin du plancher de bruit du mic entré et vous donner de meilleurs résultats de sorte que le "shhhhhh" ne soit pas comme apparent. Ce que vous faites avec ma recommandation augmente le "rapport de signal-bruit".

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/21/2002 10:43:00 PM

Good evening Rednroll !

Your French is quite good, indeed !!!! Thank you for your trouble.

The microphone I use is a very cheap one. It sells for about$10. It is a desk Boom Mic. It is a Cicero. But my biggest problem is that I used to use this microphone with my oldest laptop. The recording sound was quite acceptable. I had to normalize and to enhance the sound but that was it. Now, with me new computer it does not work. I have checked all the volume controls of the old computer and adjusted the new computer accordingly. It did not helped. The only difference I can see is the sound card. They are not the same. I have shopped around and found a USB sound card. I did not buy it yet but I wonder if this would help. Or could it be only a question of adjusting the volume controls ????

Thanks again for all your help....I will be shopping for a microphone. And, since it is the company who is paying for all this stuff....money is no problem !!!!

Au plaisir,
GinTonHic

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: GinTonHic

Date:6/26/2002 7:14:21 AM

Hello,

I got rid of half the problem. I selected effects, then wha wha at 75%. The hsssss sound disappeared. But the voice is not clear. I tried to normalize. Does not work. Any suggestions ?

Thank yuou

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: inspector

Date:6/26/2002 8:04:09 AM

You could remove the vocals and create another track and
process the vocals that way.

Just kidding...

Steve

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Noisywan

Date:6/26/2002 8:42:27 AM

Buy SF Noise Reduction plugin and use it,
or use Tools/Parametric EQ/Hiss Removal,
or say "shut up" to those making "Shhh" sounds.

Subject:RE: Recording

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/26/2002 5:38:21 PM

The USB soundcard will probably be your best solution. This will move the soundcard away from the laptop. Your old laptop probably didn't have this problem, because it was bigger in size, giving more room between the audio inputs and surrounding circuits. Everything now is so compact in newer laptops, that you have many circuits inducing noise into the sound card inputs. This is just the nature of laptop computers, until the day everything changes to fiber optics, which don't create interfering electronic noises.