Subject:OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Posted by: Weka

Date:6/11/2002 2:46:12 PM

I work in an environment where large budgets for mastering no longer exist. It has, of late, become incumbent upon me to handle what really should be farmed out to overseas mastering houses.

However I’ve been giving it a go and getting pretty good results (bearing in mind the obvious limitations) with a mix of SF6, Waves and Ozone components. But I’m stuck , for the time being, with NS10ms and a sub-woofer for monitoring.

My problem lies (as you’ve already guessed) with the bottom end. Tweak as I will I am never entirely happy with it. The trend appears to lean towards the heavy and the playing-of-it-on-many-systems process simply provides me with an interesting range of versions I don’t like. I’ve up-ed the sub and down-ed the sub and tweaked and moved the furniture etc etc. But I lack an overall objective reference.

This I know is only obtainable with the right gear in the right room. Nevertheless I still have to come up with the goods. So my question is, is there any one out there who has devised a *fool-proof* system for determining near-ideal bass levels – magical ring-passeth-not of mastering? Perhaps with spectrum analysis (I’ve not got into that yet) or with some other *mystical trick*. As I ultimately have to guess the ideal, I’m open to any assistance.
Many thanks for your time

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/11/2002 5:06:28 PM

You've answered your own question: "Spectral Analysis". You can use spectral analysis as a visual guide to what sounds good. It looks like you can't rely on your monitors as you've noticed, so adding a visual aid can help in that area so you can feel more confident with what you're hearing and seeing. Another good thing to do is listen to similar types of music and listen to individual instruments, and see how they sound on your monitors. In other words if you have a piece of music which, has been professionally mastered and you know sounds good on most systems, but when you play it on your monitoring system, the snare sounds a bit harsh. Then that's a characteristic of your monitoring system, so make sure your snare on the music you're mastering sounds harsh.

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: TeeCee

Date:6/12/2002 9:01:12 AM

Grab your favorite CD with excellent bass response and listen to it in all of these environments so you know how these environments actually sound. Then maybe try making smaller tweaks. "Mastering" is usually a very gentle process.

Good luck,
TeeCee

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: ramone

Date:6/12/2002 12:42:43 PM

try flattening the response of the room. you should be able to rent a spectral anlyzer and and then adjust your equaliser accordingly. it will help out tremendously.

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Weka

Date:6/12/2002 1:11:04 PM

Thanks Guys (assuming you are guys). I’m just about to try the “quick and dirty “ method of setting one’s sub as described in the Ozone manual as I’m pretty sure that at least part of my problem is in the sub level and the cross-over point. I've put some time into the mechanics of the Spectrum Analyser and have the operation of it pretty-well sussed.

So how exactly are you using the SA to best advantage, assuming you’re forced to rely on it to locate inconsistencies in the bottom end? Would I be right in assuming that a fairly standard ideal line should exist as a reference from 0HZ to (say) 300HZ – minus humps and bumps? It’s only in this region where my problems are. Are you aware of any detailed info on this etc etc?
Sorry if these questions are a little facile, but I really want to sort this out. (I promise not to ask how to remove vocals).
Thanks
Weka

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Edin

Date:6/12/2002 1:29:39 PM

I can't give you much better advice than the one Rednroll gave you already; you should simply compare the professional recordings to your own, and that would be good enough for most of the stuff you want to do.
I am spending a lot of time doing similar stuff, so I understand how hard it is when you have to figure things out. It really takes a lot of time.
I would recommend that you use some good headphones also, as many times they give you the "total" sound. I tried listening stuff on speakers, and I can say that hadphones give me a "better picture of the sound"; they usually have better frequency response, as well as the stereo separation, or "imaging". They also cost less than the speakers of the same quality. Another plus for the headphones is that they eliminate much of the outside noise (like your screaming parents and sisters :-) ), so that you can focus on the audio material itself. And then yet another plus is that you don't have to worry about the frequency and time response of the room.
So, basically, headphones give you what the material really sounds like, while the sound from speakers is influenced by their positioning, the room, the noise from the surrounding etc. (their quality falls in first place, of course).
You should also have a nice sound card (like M-Audio's Audiophile 2496), and a good amplifier. All these shouldn't cost much. Personally, I use this Audiophile 2496 professional sound card (about $150), big headphones that completely cover my ears (about $25) thus saving me from the family jungle sounds ;-), and then I have an amplifier from a not so old stereo. It works pretty well.
Spectrum analysis won't help too much, it is better to compare with some professional recordings, and also to trust your ear as to what sounds better.
You shouldn't put too much bass as to killl the ears, and make the other sounds impossible to hear, but you shouldn't make it too quiet either. It all depends on what do you want to make, what kind of effect to achieve, and how should it sound altogether.
I have heard some pretty good recordings with a lot of bass, but I also heard pretty neat effects with very little bass. It all depends on the kind and genre of music you are working on.

By the way, you said you "upped the sub, and then downed the sub". Usually, changing volume should give you some satisfying results, even on bad speakers. If that is not the case, then your problem might lie in the so-called "time domain".
It might be that you have too many "sub tones" hitting at the same time, they might be to close to each other, etc. Maybe the composition itself needs to be changed a little bit, not just the volume!

I hope this helped!

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/12/2002 6:32:35 PM

I don't quite agree with the headphone recommendation. The only way I would recommend headphones, is if you use them how I previously posted. (IE listen to other CD's through them and compare your music with those references). Why I say this is because, you are having troubles with the low frequence 300 Hz and below due to your monitoring system. Headphones won't properly reproduce these frequencies, I don't care how expensive they are. To properly reproduce these frequencies you need a large speaker 12-18 inch, because it takes a large AREA of matterial to reproduce the large sound waves that these frequencies require. Until they make headphones that are 12 inches in diameter, then don't even think about it.

As far as the spectral Analysis. I don't use Sound Forge's SA, it is not detailed enough to get a good representation of the spectral properties. But, what you want to do is use this similar to using reference CD's as I mentioned. Play something back through the spectral Analyzer and see what the curve is on the bass area and what it's level is compared to the rest of the frequencies. I use Sound Technologies spectra Lab, because it gives you the ability to capture a curve of a reference material and have it on the same screen as the material you're mastering. Just for laughs, once I mastered something just using the spectral analyzer and not even listening to the music and it came out sounding pretty damn good when I finally did listen to it. But, as previously mentioned, your ears are the final judge.

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: MacMoney

Date:6/12/2002 6:42:59 PM

Im with Rednroll
I do mostly R&B,Hip-Hop and Rap. The bass, drums and vocals are very dominant.
For every one of My projects I have a CD that I think is very well produced,mixed and mastered and I use that as a reference source.

George

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Weka

Date:6/13/2002 1:26:31 PM

Which was to be my next question: how to get two different SF SA curves up at the same time! Thanks for dealing to my neurosis.

Purely out of interest, what are you all monitoring on? Or better said, what have you all found to give consistently good results - i.e. no grumpy letters back from the factories.

PS I also have had no luck with headphones. I find them good for locating glitches, doing fades to zero and listening to Abba when I'm drunk, but little else. They tend to compound the hit-and-miss nature of my bottom-end issues :-)

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Weka

Date:6/13/2002 1:49:37 PM

Rednroll: Which of the four SpectraLab programmes are you using? My Itallian is umm.... poor!
Thanks

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/13/2002 3:27:46 PM

Before I had Spectra Lab I used the SF spectral analysis and would do a print screen of my reference CD, therefore I could look at the picture I had printed and compare that to the song I was mastering. It was pretty painful though.

Monitoring wise, I use 3 sets of monitors. monitor 1: (Alesis Monitor one's and haffler amp) monitor 2: (Large JBL Pro Monitors 15" powered by Mackie amp 1400watts) Monitor 3: self powered small computer speakers.

I do most of my work through Monitor 1, then for low end work reference I switch to monitor 2, then I switch to monitor 3 to see how it sounds on a cheap non studio monitor to make sure it doesn't bottom out on the low end, then I usually go back to monitor 2 and crank it up and part their hair down the middle.

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: VU-1

Date:6/13/2002 3:46:49 PM

Tannoy Reveals thru a Hafler P1500 - although I've had to get used to the bottom end (or lack thereof).

Plus I always burn a ref. and check it on other systems as well (truck, another studio, etc.)

JL
OTR

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru [Hey, Red!!]

Reply by: sk

Date:9/25/2002 5:45:24 PM

Hey, Red. Do you have any experience with iZotope's Ozone, and their SA? One of the reasons I want to purchase Ozone is to obtain the benefit their Spectral Analysis could bring to bear on visual enhancement of what my ears are and aren't hearing. Is it any more comprehensive than SF's?

sk

Subject:RE: OT: Advise sought from Mastering Guru

Reply by: TomB

Date:9/26/2002 10:34:43 AM

Hi!
I already posted this before but...
There is some interisting advice about mastering there:
http://www.johnvestman.com/
(browse the site)
Have a good one...
Tom