Subject:WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Posted by: torrej

Date:6/5/2002 7:00:38 AM

Hey crew,

I have a quick question. I am using SF 5.0 to master audio recordings that I do in Cubase 5.1. Now, I have been using this for a few months now and I was wondering if anyone out there can give me some tips on how to achieve a good mix in SF with optimal levels. I have tried allot of different things but it seem like my mixes tend to be a bit flat, no dynamics, and the levels are kind of low as well. Any input would be much appreciated.

thanks
jt

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:6/5/2002 9:25:39 AM

Big wide question this one. I have been working hard on this for a long,long time and the best advise I can offer is to get your mix sounding the very best that it can in Cubase first. Your mastering phase should be a combo of: Cleanup, EQ, Compression and Level Matching (not necessarily in this order and not necessarily needing all these tweaks).

I strive to get my mixes as full as possible and peaking somewhere around -3 in my multitrack app (Vegas or Nuendo) before I get to Forge. Setting levels on your hardware and then in your software is key - make sure everything is displaying correctly in one app/hardware piece and it should work fine in the others. I also should mention that I got fairly easy on compression during the tracking stage. Too much comp during tracking will loud things up alright but come mastering time, the life could get squashed out your track if you apply even more comp/limiting during mastering.

Then depending on the style of music and the dynamics I want to achieve, I apply several custom chains in Forge (Sonic Maximizer, Waves Masters EQ and maybe a touch of Waves L1 or L2). I want to state that I really strive for transparency instead of being obvious. I want the song to breath but be full,clear and loud without the listener going "Holy crap - there's a ton of L1 on there". This is much harder than it sounds. Tons of plugs and constant replastering in Forge can really wreak havoc on your tracks if you go too far.

This is a very subjective area and lots of the players in these forums will also tell us to have it sent out to a pro. Depends where you plan on going with it.

Me - I am currently analyzing the latest Goo Goo Dolls CD (GutterFlower) to find out just how the hell their team got Track 1 to sound so freakin'loud and thick. It has unbelievablly hot levels (RMS of -9.7 or something)that I cannot even get close to in my studio without a track meltdown. This song looks like a brickwall in Forge. There is no space in the waveform at all. Just goes to show you what Capitol Records can do with their gear and contacts vs my modest little room and limited knowledge.

Good luck and keep on mixing!

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: torrej

Date:6/5/2002 9:48:53 AM

Thanks CuzinB....

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/5/2002 10:55:46 AM

Getting a -9.7 RMS level is not hard, anyone can achieve this using the basic tools in Sound Forge. Now, getting it to a level of -9.7 RMS and still maintaining the sound that everything is breathing and has dynamics, now that is where the experience of a mastering engineer comes in. ie Loud=easy, Loud+Dynamic=difficult

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: torrej

Date:6/5/2002 12:02:13 PM

Rednroll...

Do you have any advise on using the Wavehammer and compressor in SF for mastering? CuzinB offered some really use tips, is there anything you could add?

Thanks
jt

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:6/5/2002 1:06:08 PM

RedNroll,

I hear ya! That is one fine track and it does sound incredibly open and tight without being overbearing. You sure can tell it's a lot louder than a lot of other CD's out there. I put that track up against what I thought was a pretty good mix of some of my stuff. End result - I need help - my stuff blooooooooows big time.

Hats off to the Goo Goos and their production team - great job! (I am guessing they probably didn't use SF on that final mix.)

Well - off to humbled some more...

Cuzin B

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/5/2002 2:31:22 PM

Yes, my advice for the use of wavehammer is NOT to use it or to use it as least as possible for a final touch to mastering. Wavehammer is a loudness maximizer, which does not loudness maximize with frequency content in mind. This is better suited for a multi-band compressor, where you have total control of how much each band of frequencies is compressed. If you over compress high frequencies, it will have a harsh sound to it. I can hear this in many of the loudness maximizers like Wavehammer and Waves L1 compressor loudness maximizers. I use the TC finalizer, which is a hardware device made for mastering. It has a multi-band compressor, and if properly used sounds much better than any loudness maximizer. If someone wants "brickwall" mastering as you saw on the Goo Goo dolls track, then I will then add some Wavehammer or Waves L1, or I even prefer Steinbergs Magneto. I find Magneto alters the frequency content the least through it's analog tape compression algorithm. Used in small doses, L1 and Wavehammer can be useful tools, but it's NOT a one button mastering tool. TC works now makes a software version of the TC Finalizer, but you have to buy an additional processing card for your pc.

Bottom line, look into some type of multi-band compression technique. I've recently used Vegas as a multi-band compressor by copying the track to be mastered 5 times to seperate tracks and then inserted bandpass EQ's on each track followed by a compressor. This worked great once I had it setup, and gives me a 24/96Khz unlimited multi-band compressor. Anybody ever think of this one????? It's pretty awesome.

Rednroll

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: JTelles

Date:6/5/2002 3:24:06 PM

What about the Multiband Dynamics of Sound Forge? It has four bands...I now realized I never really tried it. Anyone has any experience with this SF Multiband Compressor?
Incidentally, I also like dB-M Multiband Limiter from www.db-audioware.com, it still is just a limiter but offers band choices.

JTelles

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: Jessariah

Date:6/5/2002 7:00:07 PM

Sonic Timeworks Mastering Compressor is another good plugin to look at. You can really squeeze a file and not lose a lot of frequency. They have a limited time demo, so you can check it out without white noise, etc.

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: havlicek

Date:6/5/2002 7:12:31 PM

The SF multiband dynamics processor is a really good one. The presets are basically useless except as starting points though. But with experimentation you can come up with a couple of good setups yourself, save them and build on them.

Subject:RE: WAVE HAMMER/ COMPRESSION

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:6/5/2002 7:58:04 PM

I've tried the Sonic Foundry multi-band stuff a couple of times and didn't have much good success. I really don't like the user interface of it, which is kinda ironic, because the whole purpose why I use Sonic Foundry products is their user interface and ease of use. I'm sure you could get some pretty good results with it, if you do some tweaking, I don't have the patience. I have the Timeworks mastering compressor and find it colors the sound a bit also. Not as bad as L1, but enough to screw up my eq curve I worked so hard on achieving with my finalizer. This one isn't multiband either, but probably would do a good job in conjunction with an eq in the plugin chainer.