Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin -Sound Forge - PC

Sound Forge - PC

Subject:Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Posted by: davidanderson Date:5/30/2002 2:03:57 PM Hi, Here's my setup: Shure SM7B/vlz1202 and sound forge xp. I'm getting great audio quality but when I compare it to some studio wavs I have, it just doesn't match the fullness. I've been wondering what types of Dynamic Compression I can experiment with that will help my audio. I tried the default (SF 6 demo) of 10:1 but it tends to be too high. Can anyone provide me with some general guidelines for this particular effect in SF? I would have no problem upgrading to 6 if there are indeed feautures there I need that aren't present in XP. Thank you so much! David
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: TeeCee Date:5/31/2002 12:03:39 AM You've just asked for an encyclopedia in Cliff Notes form. You need to get a referrence from Keyboard Magazine or maybe Electronic Musician on compression in general. This is a huge topic with volumes written on it by People Who Know (just ask them). Good luck, TeeCee
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: danderson Date:5/31/2002 10:27:38 AM Hi TeeCee, I thought I was asking People Who Know by posting here. I understand that I couldn't possibly acquire a career's worth of knowledge in one thread which is why I asked for some guidelines. There aren't that many options in the Dynamics Compression window . I was just hoping if there were some suggestions that I could start with. For example, are there any "rules" for threshold to ratio settings? Meaning, threshold should be set higher than ratio? Thanks. David
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: rraud Date:5/31/2002 11:51:28 AM Perhaps your sound card is not quite as good as the studio where you get the fullness you like. The Mackie board is good, but compared to a $5,000 mic-pre.... Room acoustics also play a major factor, as do engineer expertise. Any compressor usually needs to be tweaked to get the desired sound, expermentation is the key.
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: davidanderson Date:5/31/2002 11:57:29 AM I have an audio MIA Echo sound card. I've been experimenting but so far I haven't gotten what I'm looking for. I have considered hiring a local sound engineer who knows Sound Forge to assist with the setup. I was just hoping for some tips. I find it interesting that, in a Sound Forge discusstion board, that everyone keeps telling me to get experience, read magazines about audio, get a better sound card etc, while no one has any advice on using Sound Forge. Look, I understand I will not achieve what a studio or expert will achieve, but I can still benefit from advice on general settings. Can anyone recommend any Sound Forge related tutorial sites? David
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: TeeCee Date:6/1/2002 12:53:35 AM David: What I mean is that the basics will cover 5-10 pages of a magazine easy. You can learn what the controls do briefly. If that's what you need to know, how a compressor actually works, then ask again and I'll try to type it up. As for the basics of using a compressor, that's long. There are different "basics" for every instrument and then treating over all tracks. And there's multi band compression which seems more like a fix it tool because you didn't do it right previously. Compression is often applied on a per track basis during mixdown as well as to a completed mix in the mastering stage. It goes on and on. Anything you get in a few paragraphs is likely to leave way more holes than it fills, even if you don't see the holes. I have at least 10 home made pesets I use with Graphic Dynamics. Here's a tip you can use to make your track louder. Normalize your track by peak to -.03dB if needed. Check the RMS level of your track. If it's at or above -14dB, give up, this won't help. If it's somwhere below that, set your compressor as follows: Attack 0 Release Slightly less than the length of a 16th note for faster music Threshold At your RMS Ratio Set so so that [RMS - (RMS / ratio)] = ~ -3dB Probably between 1.1 and 1.5 but do the math because that's a bigger range than it may seem. Auto Gain Compensation is on If it sounds bad, that's because you're using math to do what your ears need to do. If it sounds good, try to learn from it. This doesn't tell you anything about compression, though. Graphic Dynamics lets you get creative with the knee to make the compression less noticable or act like a noise gate as well. It's a great tool. For something like vocal compression, you can try a ratio between 3:1 and 5:1 with a threshold maybe at -6dB (after you normalize the file). Good Luck, TeeCee
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: danderson Date:6/1/2002 3:40:43 AM Thanks TeeCee, I will give it a try. I truly appreciate your time. I am sure I could leave well enough alone but I find myself getting addicted to audio perfection:-) What benefits do you think I could realize by upgrading from 4.5 XP to version 6 for doing vocal only recording? Also, do you have any Sound Forge related sites you can recommend? Thanks again for your time, David
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: SonicJG Date:6/3/2002 5:47:52 PM Mia is a good enough card to get what you're looking to get done, IMHO. Experimentation with mic'ing technique (location, distance), level-settings, and compression settings will get you the rest of the way there. Here're some links if you're interested in learning more: http://www.futuremusic.co.uk/fm_mmusic.asp?ID=5140 http://www.digitalproaudio.com/tipshints.html I've always found Harmony Central to be an AWESOME resource as well: http://www.harmony-central.com/Recording/faqs.html http://arts.ucsc.edu/ems/music/equipment/signal_processors/processors_intro/processors.html Best of luck, Joel
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: OrangeCounty Date:6/3/2002 7:04:38 PM Sorry to bother you on this thread, but I'm anxious to locate someone in southern California who could be a consultant on a project....happy to pay for consulting. Just need to locate someone. Would you have any ideas? Much appreciated! Tommy
Subject:RE: Good audio source, but sounds a bit thin Reply by: havlicek Date:6/3/2002 8:01:52 PM OK, here we go. First, someone else here mentioned a mic pre(amp). These are an integral part of the full rich character you hear in well recorded vocals on commercial CDs. But having said that, the next most important part is compression (eq is a biggie also). You should first understand a little about what exactly a compressor does. Strictly speaking, a compressor is one of a family or processors called "dynamics processors". The others are noise gates, limiters, and expanders...and they're all different sides of the same coin. What a compressor does is limit, to some user defineable degree, the dynamic range (the range between the "loudest" and "softest" parts) of the program material. Where compressing becomes important on say a vocal, is that (in the context of a mix) the softest parts of the vocal become lost behind the backing tracks which add up to a relatively equal volume (lower dynamic range) background. Without compression, the vocal would have to be mixed ahead of the other tracks to be heard and wouldn't sit well in the mix. Instruments like electric guitar, keyboards, horns etc. are much easier to record at a relatively stable volume than a mic'd vocal. Without realizing it, you tend to sing louder and softer as a result of hitting higher or lower notes, singing long phrases without breathing etc. To make up for this, the compressor decreases the loudest parts of the vocal (or whatever instrument you're compressing) so that the difference between the loudest and softest parts is less, and then has a gain control just before the output whereby you can make up for the resultant gain reduction and increase the average level. The result is a higher average level with less chance of "overs" or transient peaks crossing into distortion. You get a punchier, hotter recorded track. In addition, many compressors include a sidechain in/out whereby you can control the compressor's effect by a signal other than the program material or (in the case of de-essing) take a portion of the program material that you want to compress (like the sibilant frequencies) accentuate them by boosting them on an eq and running them back in to cause the compressor to "kick in" sooner as a result of beeing keyed to those frequencies. If you set the compressor to a high ratio, but the threshold so high that only transients will be acted upon the compressor is acting as a "limiter" and most of the program material will pass through the compressor but the "peaks" will be limited. If you set the ratio lower... but also the threshold, more pf the program will be compressed but to a lesser degree. There are also controls for attack and release. As their names imply, the attack control sets how fast the compressor will start to act and the release control will set how fast the compressor returns to idle after the program material again passes below the threshold. Fast attack times will cause the compressor to start to squash the articulation of sounds if the ratio and threeshold controls are set accordingly. Slow release times will help alleviate the "pumping" or "breathing" artifacts associated with compression since the compressor may not have time to return to idle before it starts acting again. Different program material will need to be handled differently. Sharp percussive or staccatto material will behave very differently from legato string parts. Vocals tend to have aspects of both. As with all effect devices "less is more". When you start to become aware that the compressor is working in the context of the mix, it's my feeling that you're overdoing it. A big part of getting a hot signal to "tape" on a vocal is also good mic technique. People also tend to move towards and away from mics without knowing it, causing level jumps and increases and decreases in bass content. Experienced vocalists use these effects to their benefit. Finally, a good condenser mic will do loads to improve your vocal tracks. You don't have to spend big bucks for a Neumann...an Akg C1000 will do nicely and you don't need phantom power because it will alternately run on battery power. For starters, set the compression ratio at a moderate 6:1, set the threshold at -5db and the attack and release controls at around 1 msec. At these settings, you'll readily hear the effect of the compressor when you turn it on and off. These are probably not going to be the settings you're ultimately going to use but they will get you started. Every singer, every mic, and every song is different. Practice using the compressor until you get a hot vocal signal but with as little compressor "artifact" as you can get. Make up the rest with vocal technique and watch for "pops" (the little explosions that happen when you sing a P or B sound too close to the mic) and sibilance (the excessive hissing sound that S's and Ts make when a vocal is compressed and especially when you try and brighten it with boosted HF's. I'm sorry that you may not have the magic rules you were seeking in this post, but they really don't exist. As someone else said, your ears and musical taste will be your most important guides. Good luck.

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