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Subject: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'?
Posted by: VMP
Date: 11/19/2015 11:07:33 PM

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/acidpro

There are some nice discounts for AP7 at this moment
Upgrade 48,72€

But the software is 5 years old, one wonders why it is titled: 'Your New Creative Partner'.


VMP

Message last edited on 11/19/2015 11:07:42 PM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: pwppch
Date: 11/20/2015 9:57:38 PM

For a new user, it would be a new creative partner.

If it does what one needs and wants, it doesn't matter if it is 2 days or 15 years old.


Peter

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date: 11/21/2015 7:07:13 AM

> "If it does what one needs and wants, it doesn't matter if it is 2 days or 15 years old."

While I agree that if all you want to do is compose with loops and use the built-in plug-ins it works fine. However, it does carry the "Pro" label so it must be pointed out that ACID Pro 7 is part of an ecosystem of audio plug-ins and because it is 5 years old and only a 32-bit application, it will not support any of your 64-bit plug-ins nor does it now, or will it ever, support modern technologies like VST3 so "new" customers still need to be warned that they are buying "old" software which might not work with their "other" new software.

Had Sony updated ACID Pro 7 to 64-bit and not added another feature, I would agree with your statement 100%. But buyers need to be warned that it is still a very old 32-bit application in a world of 64-bit plug-ins so that "new" customer is going to be shocked that their "new creative partner" doesn't support their "new" 64-bit plug-ins or has limitations with 32-bit plug-ins that require large sample memory.

~jr

Message last edited on 11/21/2015 7:36:42 AM by JohnnyRoy.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: VMP
Date: 11/21/2015 8:45:13 AM

Thanks for the feedback Peter.

But as Johnny Roy mentioned, the 64-bit non-support for the current technologies like VST3 is the main problem that I have with AP7. That is forcing me to abandon it.

I really don't mind how it looks. But 90% of the work I do is midi work using the current VST technology.
That is not supported by AP7. This goes for so many other users who gave their feedback here and on SCS Facebook.

Not sure if the SCS customer service will give a refund if new buyers get dissapointed, but maybe it is something to mention on the product page like JR mentioned.

Once again appreciating your feedback on this forum Peter.

VMP

Message last edited on 11/21/2015 8:54:14 AM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: AudioVizionz
Date: 11/21/2015 10:11:24 AM

Peter knew the responses he'd get and tailored his reply accordingly.

I now use Cubase and it's everything acid hoped to be. Acid will never be developed further. It still has a place in my workflow but only for the transition. So move on i say. There are too many daw options to meet modern needs to pine over improving an old product. Sure, there are learning curves...all part of living.

Message last edited on 11/21/2015 10:12:29 AM by AudioVizionz.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: ClipMan
Date: 11/21/2015 10:29:00 AM

We also call it 'Our New Creative Partner' because every new track we produce, Acid Pro is our partner. (we are fanboys forever!) When it finally sank in that Acid wouldn't be developed anymore, we looked at all the competitors like Cubase, Studio One, Ableton and a slew of others including Vegas. Guess what? NONE of them can play back a loop library in the current project key out of the box. Only one other program does that. It's Mixcraft but it has other failings which I won't go into now. Why is this 'auto pitch' such an important feature? I'm gonna tell you.

We are a group of studio musicians and music 'arrangers'. An arranger will put together a drum loop, a bass line loop and some keyboard hook loops to set the overall style and tempo of the new track. We send this 30 second clip to the lead musicians before they come into the studio. We track them one at a time and they do their thing. Once we have all the performances recorded, it becomes a cut and paste job. It's like putting together a puzzle. Most times, one of the lead musicians will come up with an amazing performance and we will change the hooks, or bass or even the drums to suit. In other words, it's the lead musicians who decide the final sound. We don't know what the final product will be until all the performances are tracked.

This is how we make music. It works, it's enjoyable and it's mildly profitable. Otherwise, we'd have to know the song in advance, bring in all the musicians to play it exactly like that, mic a drummer, do 300 takes, and spend countless hours doing 'punch-in' recording. Screw that. We have an aggressive production schedule and many times during the year we pump out about one new track per week. No way we could do this 'live'. And think about costs. The Sony libraries are excellent. We got Mick Fleetwood for $39 for over 2 gigs of samples. Even if just ONE four second loop was usable and we had to trash the rest, we'd still come out ahead. Mic-up a live drummer and you're looking at over $200.

We would have liked to use Vegas but regardless of what it says on the box, it 'recognizes' loops like a water buffalo recognizes an electric toothbrush and as I said before, the other competitors don't come close to the Acid workflow. The ability to browse a library of samples in the current project key in a narrow time frame is vital to our business. So, to summarize: We are dependent on quality loops to reduce costs and increase production. And we don't care about 64 bit stuff. VST plugins don't make music. Musicians and music arrangers make music.

Brian
www.JazzHouseBlues.com

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: Kit
Date: 11/21/2015 4:00:16 PM

I just wonder how hard it can be to make Acid 64 bit. Sony managed it with Vegas so why not with Acid.

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: AudioVizionz
Date: 11/21/2015 4:35:51 PM

@ brian...

Good, that works for you. I could care less about loops. That's my workflow. The op wants 64bit compatibility. So do a lot of us. Keep on rockin'.

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: VMP
Date: 11/21/2015 5:46:50 PM

+1 AudioVizionz & Kit

VMP

Message last edited on 11/21/2015 5:47:04 PM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: ClipMan
Date: 11/21/2015 8:39:30 PM

@ I could care less about loops.

But that was what Acid was designed and developed to do. Sure, they added dynamite recording/routing capabilities but it's basically a looping program. Obviously, looping isn't in vogue anymore in the mainstream audio creation world. And Sony obviously didn't want to rewrite the program and chase the other DAWs that had already moved to a different way of creating music. What I hope they do is create a new program from scratch. Add some earth-shaking new feature that no other DAW got. And sure, it'll probably be 64 bit. :-)

Brian


Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: pwppch
Date: 11/22/2015 12:08:55 AM

@johnnyroy

Thanks for warning them.

Peter

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date: 11/22/2015 8:51:15 AM

@SonyPCH

Do you not agree?

~jr

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: pwppch
Date: 11/22/2015 9:11:25 AM

Nothing to agree or disagree with. We disclose the requirements. You felt the need to underline and hi-light it. No problems here.

Yours is a technical point. A tool does not have to have the latest or greatest technology in the hands of an artist to allow them to create.

Left brain - right brain.


Peter

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: ClipMan
Date: 11/22/2015 9:46:29 AM

@ 64 bit VSTs and VSTIs

The latest crop of 64 bit plugins have memory hogging GUIs and memory hogging features bordering on bloatware. How many instances of these VSTs do you think you can use in a plugin chain and on how many tracks? One of our musicians has a powerful Intel 'Extreme' box with more cores than a bushel of apples running 64 bit Windows and a 64 bit version of Sonar. The box got more memory than god. He's got two 64 bit iZotope and one 64 bit Waves plugins in his chain. His computer dies a horrible death after the 5th track. If you read the iZotope hype carefully, they mention that their modules are great on BUSES, not tracks. Soon, we're gonna hear the clamoring for 128 bit DAWS and VSTs.

Brian



Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: VMP
Date: 11/22/2015 11:14:49 AM

@ ClipMan,

I have moved on to Sonar X3 producer, and it handles all the current 64 VST's fine, without any memory hogging.
Check my system specs, I barely use the 16 Gig I have.
Never had a crash.

As a kid I used to play around with loops etc, learned allot from it, I have many SCS libraries still use them as accents.
But I do original custom scores now, orchestral scores, written with midi. Creating such orchestral melodic legato themes is near to impossible with loops. With midi and writing notes I have full control.

I am talking about these kinds of scores: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce-_J41LaS0

That's Hollywood strings & symphonic choir you hear there, my main favorite orchestral VST insturments. (Note: they are not loops all written with midi notation)

I just wish I could continue working with AP7 because I love its interface.

VMP

Message last edited on 11/22/2015 11:31:08 AM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: ClipMan
Date: 11/22/2015 12:11:23 PM

@ I am talking about these kinds of scores:

Most excellent music and well produced. Acid Pro is not for you. Get over it.

@ As a kid I used to play around with loops

In the studio, we're still kids and we're still playing around. We often change style, tempo and key at the drop of a hat to suit the mood we're in at the time. This is valuable to us. Acid makes it effortless. The loops we use are live recordings from professional musicians like Matt Fink, Vince Andrews and a host of others. They're not some dinky electronica from a 13 year old screwing around in his basement. No way can we afford to record these professionals. If Sony wants to record them for us and sell these performances for pennies, I'm all for it. The quality of loops have changed dramatically over the years. And they must be doing OK because there are still a lot of loop producers out there after all this time.

Brian



Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date: 11/22/2015 1:04:00 PM

> "Nothing to agree or disagree with. We disclose the requirements."

Actually you don't and that was my point. I checked your technical specifications page before I posted and it claims: DirectX plug-in support and VST effects support but fails to mention 32-bit only. :( Not a big deal in 2009... a glaring omission in 2015.


> "Yours is a technical point. "

No, mine is a "truth in marketing" point. Is it too much to expect that the "technical specifications" page contain accurate technical content? The product pages are deceiving by omission. Other music composition software state which parts are 32-bit and which parts are 64-bit. ACID Pro has no such information for buyers to make an informed decision.


> "A tool does not have to have the latest or greatest technology in the hands of an artist to allow them to create."

Now you know I can't argue with that statement. ;-) ...but I'm guessing that when a concert pianist shows up at Carney Hall expecting a 9' Concert Grand but the stage only has a Upright... they will be a bit disappointed.

Look... ACID Pro 7 is a wonderful tool and nothing has equaled it's ease of composing music using loops. That's why people still love it and are upset that Sony isn't developing it anymore. But this thread started with a questions about "'Your New Creative Partner" and the word "New" sparked the discussion that ACID Pro 7 is actually very "Old" and has limitations when compared to modern 64-bit composition tools that should be disclosed to the customers.

I don't expect your product pages to point out what ACID Pro is not (i.e, "not 64-bit" isn't a great feature point) but at least it SHOULD point what what it is... 32-bit VST2 and DirectX 32-bit only!

~jr

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: VMP
Date: 11/22/2015 2:20:09 PM

@ClipMan, Thanks for the feedback, your workflow sounds interesting, finally it's all about the end result keep up the good work :-).


@JohnnyRoy, well said.


VMP


Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: Geoff_Wood
Date: 11/22/2015 5:03:41 PM

It does not mention the restrictions wrt new technologies in the manual, because they didn't exist when AP7 came out - probably not even thought of !

Which is why an update would be great, so that Acid could be considered 'Pro' by today's 'pro' criteria.

You can't sell the 1928 'fastest car in the world' today as being the fastest car in the world !

geoff

Message last edited on 11/22/2015 5:07:24 PM by Geoff_Wood.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: pwppch
Date: 11/22/2015 6:25:12 PM

@johnnyroy

ACID has a demo version.

Regardless, I will make sure our marketing team is made aware of your displeasure with not saying that ACID is a 32 bit app.

Peter

Message last edited on 11/22/2015 6:26:47 PM by pwppch.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date: 11/23/2015 6:23:41 AM

> "I will make sure our marketing team is made aware of your displeasure with not saying that ACID is a 32 bit app."

@SonyPCH Thanks, That would be great.

All they need to do is add (32-bit only) to the DirectX and VST support bullets and change VST to VST2 so that customers who are looking know that it only supports 32-bit plug-ins and VST2's.

I appreciate that the current words were the original specs from 2009 but they need to be updated to reflect the fact that there are more technology choices today that are not supported.

~jr

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 11/23/2015 8:51:53 AM

Regardless, I will make sure our marketing team is made aware of your displeasure with not saying that ACID is a 32 bit app.

I feel better now knowing that your "marketing team" will get right on that...

VP

Message last edited on 11/23/2015 8:53:27 AM by Vocalpoint.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: Kit
Date: 11/23/2015 12:51:19 PM

I'd rather the programming team were getting right on with making Acid 64 bit.

Kit

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 11/23/2015 1:42:05 PM

I'd rather the programming team were getting right on with making Acid 64 bit.

That is clearly not happening....but why people continue dragging on about this is most odd.

That said - I use my entire ACID loop library stash in Studio One with no issues whatsoever. If anything - S1 has made me rediscover a boatload of good stuff that was long since forgotten.

But there is no need to actually use AP7 to make the most out of a loop library now....

VP

Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: VMP
Date: 11/23/2015 3:54:23 PM

> but why people continue dragging on about this is most odd.

As I said, I love AP7's interface and workflow.I wish I could keep using it. So do many others.

You seem to have moved on, why are you still here discussing AP7?

VMP


Message last edited on 11/23/2015 3:57:04 PM by VMP.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date: 11/24/2015 10:46:29 AM

You seem to have moved on, why are you still here discussing AP7?

Well - I remain a Sony "customer" and I still have AP7 installed. And I do occasionally fire it up.

But just because I choose other tools to get the job done and might reach to AP7 just once every year for some reason - does not mean I am not interested in this 5 year old saga of non-disclosure.

VP

Message last edited on 11/24/2015 10:47:34 AM by Vocalpoint.
Subject: RE: Why is AP7 titled 'Your New Creative Partner'
Reply by: VMP
Date: 11/24/2015 11:08:08 AM


:-)

Message last edited on 12/14/2015 7:54:20 PM by VMP.

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